Thinking maybe I should move to the leaving board...

[Mr Orange]

Still new here and feeling things out. I decided to separate from my wife in late February. She has never been diagnosed, but I suspect possible BPD. At the very least, she has enough traits to make life a living hell. I had hoped me actually showing the resolve to leave on my own accord might be the cold water in the face for her to finally take ownership of her issues. Perhaps that was just naive on my part.

In the days following my departure, I made it clear that I wanted us to try and work things out, but that BOTH of us needed to do quite a bit of changing. I've been in individual counseling since I left. It has been helpful for me to recognize my own issues and where I have failed in our marriage. During our one face to face meeting I was very open and remorseful about the mistakes I had made; not being a better leader in our household, saying hurtful things when we would fight, not being a better communicator, etc. She was extremely pleasant during that meeting several weeks ago (the first time since I had left she was really nice), however after nearly 3 hours of conversation she still seemed to be taking the position of she is open to reconciling, but that involves me 100% pursuing her and her deciding if she'll take me back. After the fact, I was like What the heck, I left? Take me back? In the days following that meeting it was back to unpleasant exchanges and when I laid out some things that were bottom lines for me (such as her going to individual counseling) she said the things I suggested she work on were just more things I didn't like about her. I told her, well I can't make you change and since you don't see that you are also part of the problem, there isn't really anything to talk about. I tried to make it clear that the ball is in her court. Let me know if you realize you need to work on things too. Otherwise there's nothing to say at this point.

She texted me a couple of days later trying to re-engage me in the kinds of useless text exchanges we've had many many times. A lot of attempts to bait me into going down a pointless argument. I just acknowledge what she says and don't really react to the negative stuff that probably would piss me off in the past. The way I see it, she doesn't want to change so her tactics involve keeping communication going while using FOG to see if she can change my thinking. I'm not budging on her having to accept her side of the failed marriage, and I really don't see her doing that, so it just seems like an impasse. In our state we cannot file for divorce until one year after living separately, which would be February 2017. I finally feel like I've just given up hope on her ever changing in any way. Her mother is very much like her, and her father is a very humble, soft-spoken, laid back guy. They appear to have a very distant marriage. He seems a hollowed out person. He has told me after 15 years of fighting back and forth in couples counseling he accepted her for who she is and realized he could only change himself. It doesn't seem like she's changed one bit, though I suppose I can't really say that for sure from my limited viewpoint. Anyway, her father's attitude I suppose that's what folks call "radical acceptance" on this site. I'm not knocking that, but for me I don't believe one person should lay down on train tracks because the other is wounded and refuses to seek help. I've told her many times I'm already doing counseling and will support her in her counseling, and eventually do couples counseling too. But I need to see effort on her part and couples counseling has done nothing for us in the past.

So all that to say, does it sound like it would be more appropriate for me to post primarily on the leaving boards? We're not done done, but it feels like the writing is on the wall to me.

Cheers,

Orange

[Mutt]

Hi Mr Orange,



We can't tell you what board to participate on, you can participate on more than one board. Do you want to move to that board out of frustration? I see your point of view with not wanting to take your wife back if she's not interested at the moment with getting help. I'm happy to hear that you are willing to support her in her own counseling. I wouldn't suggest that you say BPD, it may make her symptoms worse and there's a heavy stigma attached to BPD. Anxiety and depression are more widely accepted in society. Just a thought, but you could say that you'll support her with anxiety and depression so that she can get in to see someone for mental illness. I hope that helps.


Regards,

Mutt

[Mr Orange]

Thanks Mutt,

Perhaps I'll post on both boards as needed. It kind've changes day to day. There have been times over the past few months where I have felt very conflicted; holding out hope for reconciliation. I'd say lately though I'm more resigned to the idea that this is going to end in divorce. I guess I was thinking of the "leaving/detaching" board as being for those who had made a definitive split, i.e. actually divorced or broken up and were in the healing process. Thanks for clarifying that I can post on either board. Appreciate the feedback.

Cheers,

Orange

[Mutt]

Hi Mr Orange,

It's not an easy choice to make, it's a very personal choice to end a relationship. I didn't marry to get divorced, my wife was undiagnosed and refused to get help. I was exhausted after several years and had enough, stood up for myself and gave her an ultimatum. It helps to talk to members that can relate with how it feels like to end a marriage. My advice, you deserve to be happy.

[Mr Orange]

Thanks Mutt,

I feel I'm very much at the place you were at when you decided to end your marriage. I reached my breaking point, separated and moved out, gave her an ultimatum to at least pursue counseling (I didn't say I thought she was mentally ill) as I was getting my own counseling, and she has not budged. She continues to play the victim card and every time she contacts me it is all about her. She hasn't once acknowledged the hurt she's caused me. Anytime I bring up the ways she has hurt me, it is as if the reaction from her is "great, you just think I'm a terrible person and now I feel even more worthless". Bringing up her flaws just means completely rejecting her as a person in her mind. I left it with her that the ball is in her court and if she realizes she has a responsibility to address her issues in the marriage and work on them, then let me know. Otherwise, nothing to talk about. Digging my heels in was one of the hardest things I've had to do (as I'm sure you know quite well) but I've just decided I can't lose myself because she is ill and unwilling to get help. It breaks my heart and makes me incredibly sad because I do still love and care about her. I hate mostly the things in her life that have been a major factor in her being this way, such as the sexual abuse. Something horrific that she had no control over, that stole her innocence and left a deep searing wound. But I don't have the tools to resolve those deep wounds for her. I can love her and support her through the process of qualified professionals helping her, but she won't do that. And that is where I find myself able to detach enough and believe that I deserve to be with someone who loves me enough to hear me out if they are doing so much damage to me; to want to do what they can or at least try.

Sorry, went on a bit of a rant there. Anyway, I very much appreciate your feedback. It's helpful to hear from someone who has been down the road I am on. The fear of being alone the rest of my life is one of the most difficult things I'm dealing with at this time. I suspect those insecurities are what may have made me more prone to end up with someone with so many issues and red flags that I ignored early on. I'm fortunate to have a good support group around me of family and friends who have actually seen evidence of her behavior to the point that they empathize with my situation.

If this is prying, I certainly understand but did you go through a period of separation where you were conflicted and then ultimately divorced? Or when you made the decision that the marriage was over, had you arrived at the final conclusion and there was no looking back in the way of thinking it might still work out? How is life after the relationship ended?

Orange

[Mutt]

I don't mind sharing. I felt like I had a mistake with getting married with my exBPDw and the relationship was breaking down, it got to a point where it was pretty bad with her devaluation(s) and borderline rages. I didn't know what I was dealing with at the time, I had no knowledge of BPD and I didn't suspect mental illness, I had never seen what mental illness was like. I stayed in the marriage because of the kids and I wanted to be close to them, to be able to protect them.

I recall the evening that I had told my exBPDw that I had enough, she raged at me for an hour and a half and at the end I said "That's it, I want a divorce" I was split black right then and there, so I didn't have a choice, she quickly attached to someone else and left with him when the relationship was well underway. I still cared for her but she crossed a boundary, she cheated and I didn't want to take her back because I didn't want the kids to see dad treated the way that she treated and take her back after having a relationship with another man. It was a pretty painful experience but I think that it was for the best, there were times when I wanted to leave in the marriage but I didn't know how. I resented her boyfriend but I'm out of the fire now, he's in it.

I learned a lot about myself with grieving the relationship. I think one of the biggest lessons for me was how important relationships are and that I needed work with relationships. I provided for the family and was pretty hands off when it came to the kids and my exBPDw spent a lot of time with the kids. I worked and I was self absorbed.

My kids lost the family that they know and they're with a mother that is very self absorbed with a low functioning boyfriend. I spend more time with my kids being a single dad and I think that divorce was the best thing for us because there's less conflict between the parents and I get to spend a lot of quality time with them. I give them what their mother can't do for them.

It took awhile for things to stabilize but I don't miss my exBPDw and I look forward to the future. I have dated but trying to find a partner is not a priority for me right now, I do want to get into another relationship but for now I think it will happen when it happens. I neglected my needs for as long as I could remember and for now what is most important for me is self care and raising the kids, they're still young. I recall feel emotionally drained and hopeless of the future when I was married, I was anxious about being by myself and I wanted to be in the relationship instead of being alone but it was an opportunity to find myself, understand the areas that I need to work on and life is a lot more peaceful, hopeful than the drama that my exBPDw was putting me through and the kids. They have a place that is calmer, more routine that they fall back on and I can help them navigate through this with a mother with BPD.

How she left, her affair and the divorce was hard but it was the best thing that happened. It gets better - way better.

[SingOn]

It breaks my heart and makes me incredibly sad because I do still love and care about her. I hate mostly the things in her life that have been a major factor in her being this way, such as the sexual abuse. Something horrific that she had no control over, that stole her innocence and left a deep searing wound. But I don't have the tools to resolve those deep wounds for her. I can love her and support her through the process of qualified professionals helping her, but she won't do that. And that is where I find myself able to detach enough and believe that I deserve to be with someone who loves me enough to hear me out if they are doing so much damage to me; to want to do what they can or at least try.

You expressed this so well. I think many of us can relate. I know when I see a picture of my smiling H as a three-year old, still so innocent, and then think of all the damage his father did with his verbal and emotional abuse, my heart just breaks. You sound like you are on the road to acceptance, as painful as that can be.

One comment about counseling - I set an ultimatum about eight years ago that uBPD-H needed to get counseling or I was done. I had this idea that finally he would see the light. Well, four therapists and thousands of $ later, he is no better off, because he would leave as soon as anyone challenged him. He said they just didn't understand him. So much for the miracle I'd been hoping for! But at least I learned a lot in the process. Good luck!

[Lucky Jim]

Thanks, Mutt, for your well-expressed post.  Agree, it does get better in the aftermath of marriage to a pwBPD.  Many Nons here have a fear of the unknown, which is understandable.  Yet what I've learned is that the unknown can also be where happiness is found.  Leading a r/s with a pwBPD is hard, no doubt, yet the pain leads to greater joy, which is what it's all about, in my view.

Sorry to hear what you are going through, Orange, though for what it's worth I think you are on the right path.

LuckyJim

[Mr Orange]

Mutt,

Thanks for sharing. It sounds like you had it really rough. I fortunately have not yet (knock on wood) had to deal with the pain of infidelity. I can't imagine how hard that must have been. It's great that you've remained a solid and healthy father figure in your kids lives, and have found healing through that. Thank God they have at least one parent there to be a positive influence. It sounds like you've made a ton of progress since this awful experience. Working on yourself while feeling out dating, but not jumping into anything too fast; that there shows a lot of personal growth. Many people end one relationship and jump right into another one to avoid the pain of being alone. Thanks again for your post. It has encouraged me for sure.

SingOn,

Thank you for your insights as well. I have experienced a small hint of how therapy can sound like a fantastic solution, but not necessarily change a thing. She kicked me out of the house suddenly out of nowhere back in 2014. We had been fighting all of the time but it was clearly both of us and I had not cheated on her nor abused her. Anyway, I packed my stuff and went to my parents to stay. I was pretty much done with her, but friends and family nudged me toward giving it another shot by going back and doing couples counseling. She claimed it was a misunderstanding and she was just trying to get my attention, but she had every scrap of material I owned neatly packed at the door for me. I suspect she did not expect her bluff to be called. Anyway, we did about 4 months of counseling through a pastor at our church. She couldn't even acknowledge during the first session that her kicking me out was wrong. She just made excuse after excuse. The counselor seemed to put more of the responsibility on me as we continued the process. In my experience, I've found Christian counselors focus entirely on biblical principals and are ill equipped to address something as serious as mental illness. Needless to say the process went nowhere. My goal is to start seeing a new therapist individually as soon as my new health insurance card arrives which has better coverage. I researched her and she is a LMFT who specializes in personality disorders, childhood abuse, depression, and anxiety. I figure she'd be a good fit for me just to help with the depression and anxiety, but also on the off chance my wife does accept that she needs counseling I could persuade her to join me. I don't know, maybe this is a misguided and hopeless thought, but it's that 1% of me that still believes she could have a lightbulb moment given the right therapist. But I certainly take your experience to heart, and it further tempers my expectations, which are pretty darn low right now. Thanks for sharing.

LuckyJim,

Thanks to you as well. You were one of the first members to welcome me after my initial post, and I appreciate that. Your words of encouragement help me think that things will be better one day, and hope is so crucial.

Cheers guys,

Orange

[SingOn]

Anyway, we did about 4 months of counseling through a pastor at our church. She couldn't even acknowledge during the first session that her kicking me out was wrong. She just made excuse after excuse. The counselor seemed to put more of the responsibility on me as we continued the process. In my experience, I've found Christian counselors focus entirely on biblical principals and are ill equipped to address something as serious as mental illness. Needless to say the process went nowhere. My goal is to start seeing a new therapist individually as soon as my new health insurance card arrives which has better coverage. I researched her and she is a LMFT who specializes in personality disorders, childhood abuse, depression, and anxiety. I figure she'd be a good fit for me just to help with the depression and anxiety, but also on the off chance my wife does accept that she needs counseling I could persuade her to join me. I don't know, maybe this is a misguided and hopeless thought, but it's that 1% of me that still believes she could have a lightbulb moment given the right therapist. But I certainly take your experience to heart, and it further tempers my expectations, which are pretty darn low right now.

Finding the right therapist is so important. One that we had understood what was going on. She spoke to us each individually on the phone before our first joint session. She told me her main objective was to win my H's trust, and that it might appear during sessions that she was going extra hard on me and easy on him, but that was in order to not scare him away. It seemed to work for awhile... .until she gently stated during a session that she didn't believe I was having an affair. That's when she lost him. (He had built up a huge theory about this and how he couldn't trust me, and he couldn't see any other truth or see himself not as the victim). But this type of scenario could play out entirely differently with your wife and a capable therapist. I think if you've still got that tiny hope, you'd not regret not having tried one more time.

[Mr Orange]

But this type of scenario could play out entirely differently with your wife and a capable therapist. I think if you've still got that tiny hope, you'd not regret not having tried one more time.

Yeah, my 1% hope is that she would go to a therapist and it would be someone who would be the right fit, and see the situation for what it is, as it sounds like you experienced. If my wife would but just acknowledge that she has these issues I think that would make a huge difference for me. And I don't think that realization would change much in the way of how difficult the marriage is and has been for a long time, but just that acceptance that she does have a particular illness that requires work would be a game changer. I would want to not only work on my issues further, but also really work on learning how what I can do to be a supportive partner to her in the ways she needs. I suppose there are a lot of folks on these boards who are highly focused on honing their behavior and communication within the relationship to adjust for the BPD partner's particular needs, despite their BPD partner not accepting they have an illness. I think personally, I can't do that. If I'm going to remain in a relationship for the rest of my life, where things are still incredibly difficult (probably much more than the average marriage) I at least need her to be at a point where she is more aware of her issues and takes some level of responsibility for them. That's where I've drawn the line; I'll love and support you through the tough times but you have to at least be able to accept that you (my wife) are part of this marriage failing. So far, she's standing firm that I should love her as she is and she should not have to change anything about herself. So it's that impasse period that could wind up with an improbably change in her thinking and taking the road toward reconciliation, or nothing changes and this becomes another divorce statistic. I know it will be hard if it does end in divorce, but I feel like I will be able to walk away knowing I really tried to work things out (I've done a lot of personal work the past several months and only ask her to do therapy as well) and ultimately respected myself enough to not remain in an unhealthy and toxic relationship.

Again, thanks for your input.

Cheers,

Orange