Overwhelming shame & guilt.

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

  Everyone!

I hope you are all well or on your way there!

There's a topic that has been interesting me more and more, as I learn more about myself and my FOO. I was wondering what views others may have on this topic.

Apologies for this topic not being as coherent as it should be. I am incredibly tired, but felt that I needed to put this all out there, before I lose my train of thought. I feel like I have just come to a major breakthrough!

I feel like I can grasp the concept of the shame and guilt I felt ever since I was a child, which I believe was instilled into me by my parents and their siblings.

I feel like the shame stems from always being put down by my parents. I remember my Dad would rip into me and shame me in front of strangers, friends & family (to be honest, he still does). There was a time as a child, when he went for a doctor's appointment and took me with him. As we were sitting in the doctors office, he complained to the doctor that I never listen and (in a round about way) said I'm not a very good son. I remember this vividly because the doctors reaction struck me. I felt like I was picking up pity from her. Pity for me. I could tell she was uncomfortable with the comments my Dad was making about me. I could tell she felt uncomfortable by my Dad trying to gain sympathy. She dismissed my Dad with a 'Hmmmm' as if acknowledging what he said but then moved the conversation on swiftly. My Dad started complaining about pain that he was getting in his legs. I remember feeling as if he was a child trying to garner sympathy, but I also remember feeling a lot of guilt and shame. There were numerous times he would come into my room and tell me I wouldn't be anything and that I'm not as great as I (supposedly) thought I was. Again, I remember a particular instance where he done this and it sticks out because his whole demeanour was like that of a child. He came into my room fiddled about with some stuff on the shelf and told me I'm not as great as I (supposedly) think I am. I was about 14, barely knew myself and this comment/moment was just random (normally there would be a build up). I remember this especially because after this particular moment, I just laughed. I found him to be so pathetic... .It was kind of a turning point for me, but I did feel like he was yet again tearing me down.

My mum would also add a lot of shame into things. We grew up poor and she made me feel ashamed for not having clothes as nice as my cousins. My mum however played the guilt card a lot more. She at one point refused to talk to me when I was 13, because I stopped going to a particular religious centre after school (which she felt was a betrayal more of our culture than of our religion). The place quite frankly was a cult and still is. My eldest brother completely agreed with my decision not to go. I remember how hard those couple of months were for me. Words can not honestly explain how I felt. I felt like I lost my mother forever (not that she was ever really there emotionally etc) and mourned. I would call out to her while she was in the same room as me, and she would completely ignore me. I remember crying when she did start to speak to me (because I went back to that centre). I slightly pushed her away and with a broken voice reprimanded her for it. She just tried to laugh it off.

I don't want to spend too much time dwelling on particular instances (as for various reason it might not make for very pleasant reading)! Suffice to say, my parents are both controlling, needy, my mother is narcissistic, bullies, rude, arrogant, condescending & childish amongst other things.

I can see how their treatment has led me to hold a lot of shame and guilt. Guilt for being born (which would always be placed on me), and guilt for messing up their life (especially my Dad's, who said on numerous occasions that his life was better before I was born and because of me it's now ___).

I feel like deep down I hold a lot of this shame and guilt. But I also feel there is a lot on the surface.

I feel at times, deep shame & guilt for example, for not standing up for myself at certain times (whereas other times I did) to people who bullied and belittled me, as I was growing up. I feel like there were times where people stepped all over me, and I let them. I hold extreme anger and resentment to these people, to the point where I feel like lashing out (violence in my home and outside the home were second nature to those of us who grew up in this environment).

Could it be a case of Person A belittles/bullies me > I feel anger > Keep it bottled up as I couldn't let it all out as a child > The shame I feel is intensified due to the core shame & guilt that I feel? Is that why I can't get over these instances?

Will getting over the core trauma help me on my way to letting go and then live a life I deserve to?

Am I even correct in thinking that I suffer from deep core trauma shame and guilt?

I feel like if I deal with these childhood issues I have repressed, I can then start to thrive as opposed to just live life surviving. I so badly want to start thriving and live a more fulfilled happy life!

Have you ever expericenced this shame and guilt? How did you or are you dealing with it? Any input would be extremely helpful and appreciated!

[GrowThroughIt]

  Everyone!

I hope you are all well or on your way there!

There's a topic that has been interesting me more and more, as I learn more about myself and my FOO. I was wondering what views others may have on this topic.

Apologies for this topic not being as coherent as it should be. I am incredibly tired, but felt that I needed to put this all out there, before I lose my train of thought. I feel like I have just come to a major breakthrough!

I feel like I can grasp the concept of the shame and guilt I felt ever since I was a child, which I believe was instilled into me by my parents and their siblings.

I feel like the shame stems from always being put down by my parents. I remember my Dad would rip into me and shame me in front of strangers, friends & family (to be honest, he still does). There was a time as a child, when he went for a doctor's appointment and took me with him. As we were sitting in the doctors office, he complained to the doctor that I never listen and (in a round about way) said I'm not a very good son. I remember this vividly because the doctors reaction struck me. I felt like I was picking up pity from her. Pity for me. I could tell she was uncomfortable with the comments my Dad was making about me. I could tell she felt uncomfortable by my Dad trying to gain sympathy. She dismissed my Dad with a 'Hmmmm' as if acknowledging what he said but then moved the conversation on swiftly. My Dad started complaining about pain that he was getting in his legs. I remember feeling as if he was a child trying to garner sympathy, but I also remember feeling a lot of guilt and shame. There were numerous times he would come into my room and tell me I wouldn't be anything and that I'm not as great as I (supposedly) thought I was. Again, I remember a particular instance where he done this and it sticks out because his whole demeanour was like that of a child. He came into my room fiddled about with some stuff on the shelf and told me I'm not as great as I (supposedly) think I am. I was about 14, barely knew myself and this comment/moment was just random (normally there would be a build up). I remember this especially because after this particular moment, I just laughed. I found him to be so pathetic... .It was kind of a turning point for me, but I did feel like he was yet again tearing me down.

My mum would also add a lot of shame into things. We grew up poor and she made me feel ashamed for not having clothes as nice as my cousins. My mum however played the guilt card a lot more. She at one point refused to talk to me when I was 13, because I stopped going to a particular religious centre after school (which she felt was a betrayal more of our culture than of our religion). The place quite frankly was a cult and still is. My eldest brother completely agreed with my decision not to go. I remember how hard those couple of months were for me. Words can not honestly explain how I felt. I felt like I lost my mother forever (not that she was ever really there emotionally etc) and mourned. I would call out to her while she was in the same room as me, and she would completely ignore me. I remember crying when she did start to speak to me (because I went back to that centre). I slightly pushed her away and with a broken voice reprimanded her for it. She just tried to laugh it off.

I don't want to spend too much time dwelling on particular instances (as for various reason it might not make for very pleasant reading)! Suffice to say, my parents are both controlling, needy, my mother is narcissistic, bullies, rude, arrogant, condescending & childish amongst other things.

I can see how their treatment has led me to hold a lot of shame and guilt. Guilt for being born (which would always be placed on me), and guilt for messing up their life (especially my Dad's, who said on numerous occasions that his life was better before I was born and because of me it's now ___).

I feel like deep down I hold a lot of this shame and guilt. But I also feel there is a lot on the surface.

I feel at times, deep shame & guilt for example, for not standing up for myself at certain times (whereas other times I did) to people who bullied and belittled me, as I was growing up. I feel like there were times where people stepped all over me, and I let them. I hold extreme anger and resentment to these people, to the point where I feel like lashing out (violence in my home and outside the home were second nature to those of us who grew up in this environment).

Could it be a case of Person A belittles/bullies me > I feel anger > Keep it bottled up as I couldn't let it all out as a child > The shame I feel is intensified due to the core shame & guilt that I feel? Is that why I can't get over these instances?

Will getting over the core trauma help me on my way to letting go and then live a life I deserve to?

Am I even correct in thinking that I suffer from deep core trauma shame and guilt?

I feel like if I deal with these childhood issues I have repressed, I can then start to thrive as opposed to just live life surviving. I so badly want to start thriving and live a more fulfilled happy life!

Have you ever expericenced this shame and guilt? How did you or are you dealing with it? Any input would be extremely helpful and appreciated!

[eeks]

 Everyone!

I hope you are all well or on your way there!

Hello, GrowThroughIt.  On my way there, that'd be my answer.   

I don't want to spend too much time dwelling on particular instances (as for various reason it might not make for very pleasant reading)! Suffice to say, my parents are both controlling, needy, my mother is narcissistic, bullies, rude, arrogant, condescending & childish amongst other things.

Your father's saying that you are not a good son and "not as great as you think you are" sounds narcissistic to me, too.  Margalis Fjelstad writes in Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist that NP/BP personalities feel intense emotions, don't know where they come from, and blame other people for them.  There is also the theory of the "moral defense/complementary moral defense", that is, the narcissist claims to be the source of all the good, and the other person is the source of all the bad (see www.danielshawlcsw.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Enter_Ghosts.pdf)

I can see how their treatment has led me to hold a lot of shame and guilt. Guilt for being born (which would always be placed on me), and guilt for messing up their life (especially my Dad's, who said on numerous occasions that his life was better before I was born and because of me it's now *expletive deleted*

Well, I'm sure you can understand intellectually that you didn't ask to be born.  However, one of my analogies for it is that there's a shame "hot potato" and when a parent tosses it to a child, the child does not have the understanding or developmental capacity to toss it away.  

Perhaps you can begin to remind yourself that the shame belongs to your parents, not you, even if you don't feel and live by that yet.  Notice that doing this may lead to feelings of anger or a surge of energy.  Notice that that can be difficult to stay present with (sure is for me), because claiming this rightful self (yep, totally rightful) would have been dangerous in your FOO.  

You may find some grief in there too, I have.  Also a kind of repulsion or disgust at some of the lies I was forced to accept as true.  I'm realizing I was "recruited" to hide family secrets more than i was previously aware of.

I feel at times, deep shame & guilt for example, for not standing up for myself at certain times (whereas other times I did) to people who bullied and belittled me, as I was growing up. I feel like there were times where people stepped all over me, and I let them. I hold extreme anger and resentment to these people, to the point where I feel like lashing out (violence in my home and outside the home were second nature to those of us who grew up in this environment).

I understand.  However, would it be a helpful perspective if I said that given all the facts and sequences of events of your upbringing, it would have been impossible for you to choose differently?  As you gain awareness now and heal, and take steps like posting here and getting therapy, new options may open to you as well as the skills for exercising them, but in the past it could not have been different?

Could it be a case of Person A belittles/bullies me > I feel anger > Keep it bottled up as I couldn't let it all out as a child > The shame I feel is intensified due to the core shame & guilt that I feel? Is that why I can't get over these instances?

That makes sense to me!  When I take risks in relating to people (being more spontaneous and expressive, for example) I can have backlashes of anxiety... .which I believe is that old superego/inner domineering parent stepping in and saying "Not a chance!"  Perhaps anger feels so forbidden for you that as self-protection it gets squashed with shame and guilt before any of it even gets out.

The good news, I suppose, is that that suggests a high intensity of emotional energy currently locked up in you, which, once you are able to be present with it, feel it and express it, will serve as "fuel" for your life.  

Will getting over the core trauma help me on my way to letting go and then live a life I deserve to?

Am I even correct in thinking that I suffer from deep core trauma shame and guilt?

I am beginning to think that healing is less about "getting over the core trauma" (although some understanding may be necessary) and more about reclaiming the right to feel all of one's feelings.  Some people find they require an attuned person e.g. a therapist in order to accomplish this.  Given what you said about anger, I think it might be helpful to find someone comfortable with the emotion of anger, in whose company you can feel it towards the right people for the right reasons.  

eeks

[GrowThroughIt]

Hello, GrowThroughIt.  On my way there, that'd be my answer.   

I am glad to know that you are on your way there!

Your father's saying that you are not a good son and "not as great as you think you are" sounds narcissistic to me, too.  Margalis Fjelstad writes in Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist that NP/BP personalities feel intense emotions, don't know where they come from, and blame other people for them.  There is also the theory of the "moral defense/complementary moral defense", that is, the narcissist claims to be the source of all the good, and the other person is the source of all the bad (see www.danielshawlcsw.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Enter_Ghosts.pdf)

I guess my father does fit the description of a narcissist. 

Well, I'm sure you can understand intellectually that you didn't ask to be born.  However, one of my analogies for it is that there's a shame "hot potato" and when a parent tosses it to a child, the child does not have the understanding or developmental capacity to toss it away.  

Definitely agree with this.  It does feel like I have been carrying around this hot potato for quite some time. 

Perhaps you can begin to remind yourself that the shame belongs to your parents, not you, even if you don't feel and live by that yet.  Notice that doing this may lead to feelings of anger or a surge of energy.  Notice that that can be difficult to stay present with (sure is for me), because claiming this rightful self (yep, totally rightful) would have been dangerous in your FOO.  

Eeks, you hit the nail on the head again!  As an adult, I need to learn mechanisms etc to be able to toss it FAR away.  That is my parents legacy and not mine.  I do have feelings of suppressed anger to my parents.  I understand what you mean by staying present with these feelings.  It was forever the norm, for me to switch (bury?) feelings off.  I know exactly what you mean by rightful self.  I feel like I don't have a self as of yet.  There are times where I feel like more myself (without the baggage of my FOO) and I feel great, like I just want to cry out of happiness, as if, things might just be alright. 

I understand.  However, would it be a helpful perspective if I said that given all the facts and sequences of events of your upbringing, it would have been impossible for you to choose differently?  As you gain awareness now and heal, and take steps like posting here and getting therapy, new options may open to you as well as the skills for exercising them, but in the past it could not have been different?

Again, you're right.  The coping mechanisms I had (still have) would not have allowed things to play out any differently.

That makes sense to me!  When I take risks in relating to people (being more spontaneous and expressive, for example) I can have backlashes of anxiety... .which I believe is that old superego/inner domineering parent stepping in and saying "Not a chance!"  Perhaps anger feels so forbidden for you that as self-protection it gets squashed with shame and guilt before any of it even gets out.

It does feel forbidden.  I never looked at it like that.  As a child, I was the scapegoat/angry kid and was forever scolded when I reacted to something, and anger was the only way I knew how.  To be honest, my own anger does scare me, as I know I have the potential to really inflict harm on not just myself but others as well.  I guess that could be another reason why I keep it buried.  I feel like I need to learn new coping mechanisms, to replace the ones I still have from childhood.

The good news, I suppose, is that that suggests a high intensity of emotional energy currently locked up in you, which, once you are able to be present with it, feel it and express it, will serve as "fuel" for your life.  

I definitely feel like I have a high intensity of emotional energy locked within me!  I really do want to become more present with it, feel it and express it!  The only problem I have now, is to not be afraid of this emotion.  To be able to tap into without any shame.

I am beginning to think that healing is less about "getting over the core trauma" (although some understanding may be necessary) and more about reclaiming the right to feel all of one's feelings.  Some people find they require an attuned person e.g. a therapist in order to accomplish this.  Given what you said about anger, I think it might be helpful to find someone comfortable with the emotion of anger, in whose company you can feel it towards the right people for the right reasons.  

Yep the right to feel ones feelings.  That is a much better way of looking at it.  In my FOO it was tantamount to treason if you even felt your feelings let alone expressed them!

Thank for your reply, it really did help!

[GrowThroughIt]

I am currently on page 50 of 'Healing The Shame That Binds You'.

It is an amazing book.  There are some things which I do not necessarily agree with, such as the emphasis on the 'Spiritual' side of things but it is still of amazing help.

It really helped to have this book put my experiences into written form, almost as a form of validation.  It feels good to have someone else express the things which are wrong in my FOO, and to tell me that it is OK to want to heal.