She is screaming to feel loved - and yet everything I do she doesnt' receive

[ArleighBurke]

This is a conversation from last night. I was impressed with how I handled it - i validated her really well, kept a calm voice, kept us on track. There was a lot more to it, but I'm trying to only type the relevant stuff.
 
 
I finished painting our daughters birthday present at 10pm last night and went and sat next to my BPDw on the couch. She talked about work/nothing for a while then asked "How do you feel that i work so much?" We talked about that for a little while - I was supportive and talked about how I understand why she does, then told her I felt a bit sad about it, and that I missed being with her and doing things with her. She wanted me to pull apart what I was feeling, answer WHAT things we should be doing, suggested that perhaps I was only feeling sad because I wasn't the centre of her world any more... .
 
After a while she said:
Her: I WAS hoping to create a connection with you tonight but it doesn't feel like it.
Me: No I don't feel connected. How did you think this conversation was going to help us be connected?
Her: Well you *could* have opened up to me - and told me you were sad that I worked so much, and that you missed spending time with me.
Me: Isn't that EXACTLY what I said?
Her: No you said you missed *doing* things with me, not *spending time* with me... .
 
Her: I don't feel like I'm important to you. If I didn't come home tonight - if I slept at work - nothing for you would have changed. You don't want to spend time with me.
Me: When you came home tonight (at 7pm), I was just about to start painting. But instead I sat down on the couch next to you and even said to you "I was about to start paitning but since you've come home I'll sit with you".
Her: I don't know whether you sat with me out of obligation or desire (so I'm assuming obligation).
 
She was quite genuine and seeking an answer when she said:
Her: WHAT do I need to do to make you express love and affection for me?
Me: Did what I say to you in the kitchen tonight count? (I came up to her in the kitchen while she was making her own dinner about 7:30pm and wrapped my arms around her from behind, kissed her on the neck and said "It was so nice being able to come home tonight and have a pre-cooked dinner in the fridge. I was able to get dinner ready for the kids in just a few minutes. It made a big difference. Thank you. I know that's you providing for us all". )
Her: Well... .Yeah - except I'm not sure if you were genuine or just stalling. You may have just be filling in time so you didn't have to paint. And you're thanking me for doing a housework job.
Me: So... .I'm not allowed to thank you for doing a housework job?
Her: Well yes. But I do it each week.
Me: So... .I'm not allowed to thank you for that?
 
Me: Wife: this is my problem. Like tonight, I said something nice to you, and you sabotage it - stopping yourself from receiving it. Just like the bath a few days ago (I ran a bath for her, added bubbles, lit candles, put on solft music, setup a head towel - she said it didn't count because I didn't "tell her it was for her". I believe that it was a love language problem - her's is gifts/word-of-affection and just doing the bath was acts-of-service). The last thing I tried to do was a series of 3 love notes - they were wrong (they were love heart notes with "things I love about wife" on them. I left one for her every 2 days. The first one she didn't mention for 3 days - then put it down in passing. The second one I complimented her radiant smile - but she told me that it didn't count because that was a physical something - not about "her". And the 3rd didn't count because it was "sexual". Somehow - I keep getting it wrong.
Her: I talk with you about what i want - i even model it for you.
Me: And I try to do what you ask for!
Her: So you've given up?
Me: Obviously not. I'm still trying... .
 
And this morning:
Her: I'm getting some bad vibes from you this morning - no affection - distance.
Me: <Validation. Then... .> I cuddled you in bed this morning (10 mins of spooning after the alarm went off but no conversation).
Her: Were you awake?  I assumed you were asleep. You often cuddle me while you're asleep (SO IT DOESN"T COUNT!)
 
 
The conversation felt SOO difficult. Because she is screaming for me to show her affection - she is screaming to feel loved - and yet everything I do she doesnt' receive! I know about love languages and I'm sure of hers. I don't know how to move on from here. It feels like there is no point me trying to do things for her - I will always be the bad guy. And yet I feel her pain - I know what she wants - I know she has that hole - and I WANT to fill it. I want to MAKE HER SEE that it's only 10% about me, and 90% about her - but I can't.
 
Feeling Lost and Hopeless.
 
 

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[ArleighBurke]

I know I know... .this other post explains this all VERY well. Doesn't make me feel any less frustrated... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=297859.0

None of her recollections are accurate because they are all biased to accommodate her distorted perspective caused by her disordered feelings. But trying to persuade her otherwise, would be like trying to talk her out of being mentally ill; you can't do it.

Notice the trend? It doesn't matter what anyone does or what anyone else things. Her feelings dictate her facts and perspective.  She is in her own bubble chamber.

Because her feelings are not due to a misunderstanding.  You can clear up a misunderstanding. And if her feelings were not caused by a personality disorder, then her feelings and thoughts would conform to changing information in reality; they do not.  She makes you feel like everything you do is wrong because emotionally she *needs* you to be the fall guy -- she needs you to be the reason why she has these feelings because she cannot accept that they are disordered in nature.

She's in a catch-22. She doesn't have the emotional resources to accept that she has an emotional disorder. But until she starts developing tools to manage her disordered emotions, she will never be able to improve her emotional resources.

Because the minute someone manages to convince her that something is wrong with her, then suddenly in her mind "everything" is wrong with her and she will feel despondent (some feel suicidal) until her psychological defense mechanism kicks in and then she blames the messenger (or her nearest available target).

[Icanteven]

So many things jumped out at me from your post, but there are three biggies in here (for me anyway):

1)  In so many instances in your excellent recap, I hear your wife basically saying "tell me you love me for me."  Spending time with me = wanting to be with me because of me.  Not what we're doing or not doing.  Not what the gesture is specifically.  Not what form the gift takes.  She wants to know that you love who she is, not what she does.

I made you a bath tonight because I love you.
I made you a card because I don't want you to ever forget that you're the love of my life. 
I made you breakfast in bed because you are the mother of our children and you are the only woman in the world to me.

It sounds like she desperately needs to hear the "why" behind everything you do, otherwise there's a disconnect between the affirmation/gift/gesture and why you're doing it, which must always come back to "because I love you for being you."

Her: I talk with you about what i want - i even model it for you.

2)  For me at least, this would have been a hole to drive a truck through.  "I'm sorry I haven't been able to love you the way you've shown me you want to be loved, and you shouldn't have to repeat yourself, but I'm clearly not making the connection; please tell me again."   It sounds like your relationship is in a healthy enough spot that she will do just that if you ask her. 

she is screaming for me to show her affection - she is screaming to feel loved - and yet everything I do she doesnt' receive... .It feels like there is no point me trying to do things for her - I will always be the bad guy. And yet I feel her pain - I know what she wants - I know she has that hole - and I WANT to fill it. I want to MAKE HER SEE that it's only 10% about me, and 90% about her - but I can't.

3)  First up, sort of a 2a: If you knew what she wanted, she would be getting it, right?  But, for sake of argument, let's say you're right. 

My wife and I did the love languages.  Last year was a milestone birthday for her and I spoiled her rotten in ways that matched her love language.  She got exactly what she wanted.  We did her celebration exactly as she wished.  And yet, everything was ruined by something her girlfriends would in the next few days read the riot act to her over because of the poutrage it engendered.

OTOH, as I relayed in a different thread, I bought my friend a $30 coffeemaker and helped her pack up her trade show one evening and it got me a two iphone block of text, a home cooked meal, wine, and some great company.  That's how adult love is supposed to work, only we're just friends (which makes me even sadder now that I've typed that; not that we're just friends, but that it got to a point where I couldn't remember my wife doing sweet things for me any more). 

You're heart is in the right place for sure.  Hopefully I didn't miss the boat and actually added a little value.

[ArleighBurke]

1) It sounds like she desperately needs to hear the "why" behind everything you do, otherwise there's a disconnect between the affirmation/gift/gesture and why you're doing it, which must always come back to "because I love you for being you."

Yes agreed. I can see that "doing" is an act that just misses - I need to translate that to WORDS to match her language.
But even when I did that (in the kitchen thanking her specifically, and notes saying "I love you because" and list things) she STILL finds a way to be able to discredit it!

Her: I talk with you about what i want - i even model it for you.

2)  For me at least, this would have been a hole to drive a truck through.  "I'm sorry I haven't been able to love you the way you've shown me you want to be loved, and you shouldn't have to repeat yourself, but I'm clearly not making the connection; please tell me again."   It sounds like your relationship is in a healthy enough spot that she will do just that if you ask her. 

Yep. And I've said this almost word for word to her. She tells me, and I do things 99% to the letter and it's STILL wrong for some obscure reason.

I think she doesn't feel connected. And everything I do that she wants me to that is supposed to make her feel closer doesn't make her feel closer. And it CAN'T be because she's broken, so therefore it MUST be because I'm not doing the right thing. How do i get out of this cycle?

[Hmcbart]

My wife does this quite often. I think the post from shwing is dead on. She needs you as the fall guy because she can't have these emotions being caused by her.

As for me I am pretty sure I don't do the correct action. After I try for a while, weeks or sometimes months to show her I love her the way she wants me to, I give up and stop trying.  That seems to be the only time she will decide to say something.  It's usually that I'm not showing her I love her but she doesn't remember any of the things I've done to show her just that.

Ivanteven: I feel you on how adult love is supposed to work. I do still remember the last time my wife showed me affection and love. It was a very long time ago but I remember it. I wish I didn't because then I wouldn't know what I was missing out on in my relationship.

[SettingBorders]

But even when I did that (in the kitchen thanking her specifically, and notes saying "I love you because" and list things) she STILL finds a way to be able to discredit it!

I know these kind of situations. And I am very astonished, how much you do to show your love and affection. I've seldomly been so romantic in my relationships and also found it kind of rare if my boyfriend (or any other former boyfriend) acted that way. So, maybe it's really a language problem. Maybe she's more into practical than romantic things: to beeing listened to, little favours, dooing housework, etc. Or what about taking her out on suprise? As she might understand deeds better than words. You can try this.

But actually it seems to me you even do to much already. A person that isn't able to love herself will never feel loved - no matter how hard you try. (I don't know if you know Erich Fromm's: The Art of Loving, but it's a very recomendable book - for everyone, but a tiny bit more for her than for you.) So maybe you can help her to accept and love herself better - and not to depend on you therefore. Its a kind of learned helplessness the BPDs need to un-learn.

[isilme]

A person that isn't able to love herself will never feel loved - no matter how hard you try.

I feel this is the biggest hurdle.  H hates himself most of the time, thinks he is ugly, unattractive (which is VERY important to him) and calls me crazy or a liar for telling him he looks nice.  Add to that the times he is aware he is being ugly in his (less frequent) rages or how he feels about other people, often negative, and he feels he is unlovable.  He is not quiet where the OP's wife is, where he is always blaming his negative feelings on me, but it still happens. 

And it might be invalidating, but I've had to start saying, "No.  That is not what I am thinking/feeling.  It is what YOU are thinking and feeling, and you are attributing it to me.  I don't think you are ugly.  I don't think you are a bad person.  YOU feel that way about yourself, and I cannot change how you choose to feel about yourself.  Only you can work on that."  Probably not the best way to say it, but one thing I try to stop is him telling me what I think, and how he knows more about what I think than I do.

If a pwBPD feels bad, and cannot face the fact that their feeling bad is the result of disordered feelings, caused by internal issues they want to project onto you, the most convenient external excuse for the feelings, then I'm not sure what can be done. 

You can only do so much - I agree, if this was based on a logical misunderstanding, it'd be fine.  But it's not.  It's based on internal self-loathing, shame, and bad feelings the OP's wife can't admit she caused herself to have by not being able to sort out her own emotions.  So she needs to blame him for making her feel bad, rather than realizing the hole she feels is caused by her BPD.

[Jessica84]

Sorry Arleigh. Frustrating to read this, I can imagine how frustrating it would be to live it. You're doing so much right already. Anyone can see how much you love her. Just be consistent - in time she may see it too.

If her love language is words of affirmation, try amping up the validation. My bf hasn't taken the test, but I'm pretty sure his would be words of affirmation, too. When I started using SET, we got so much closer and much of his angst decreased. Validation really perked him up and got his attention. He can never get enough support and empathy. Unquenchable thirst for him. Physical touch was like petting a dragon - I kept getting burned. Don't hug the dragon. Acts of service made him uncomfortable and exhausted feeling obliged to return the favor - same with giving gifts. Quality time is me watching tv while he stares at his phone. So by process of elimination, I learned the way to make him FEEL loved was listening without an agenda, letting him speak freely and be heard, and validation, validation, validation.

[Jessica84]

islilme - I have the same problem. If I say anything nice about his appearance, he'll say "you must be blind". He won't take a compliment. It just invalidates how he feels about himself. But a compliment for an accomplishment he's proud of, and he can't get enough praise. I'll hear "did I do good?" over and over, like a 5-year old who wants his mommy's approval. Or if it's something he's written, he'll want me to read it to him over and over, as he sits beaming with pride and a big smile. So I validate where I can.

[ArleighBurke]

Thank you all for your replies.

The hardest part is listening to her plead for me to give her love that I'm already giving! It's like her sitting at a table with 100 glasses of water on it telling me how much she wants water and pleading for me to get her water! It's there and she just can't see it! Like all those movies where the thing that someone travels the world to try to find - they realise has been with them the whole time!

I just want her to see it and feel it!

But she has BPD.

[ArleighBurke]

Sometimes I go to her work for a surprise to have lunch with her. It's a 20min drive there and 20mins back so it takes a big chunk of my time. She said that it doesnt' count as "romantic" - because she presumes that I only came because I needed an excuse to get out of the office, or that I was on my way somewhere (despite that I almost never leave work for anything - and I certainly would not go anywhere near her work). To make it romantic I need to explicity state: I came here becaue I wanted to spend time with you.

This fits with her: if there are 5 reasons why I might do something, she presumes the worst unless I tell her otherwise.

But I'm also second guessing the whole conversation. Is this what she feels JUST NOW - she's justifying and explaining away my good acts to match her feelings NOW, or do she ALWAYS feel this? I guess it doesn't matter... .

[PFCI]

From my own experiences with my BPDw, things will always be OK if I can just change something.

Except when I do, things will get better if I can change something else.

And so on.  It never ends.

The main improvement to my life (and my wife's, I think) is accepting that I can't change enough to make her happy, and that my happiness shouldn't depend on hers.

That's not to say that you shouldn't try and make her happy, in fact I try more now I accepted it will never work.

It's just that you you should do things to make yourself happy, and this will make you a nicer, better person to be around.   And it will make it easier to treat your wife in a loving, caring way, as you aren't doing it in expectation of it working, you are just doing it as it's a nice  thing to do to someone you love. 

I hope that kind of makes sense.

[ArleighBurke]

That makes sense, and is my mindset.

After the big conversation sat night, I wanted to do *something* for her. I went out to help a friend early sunday morning, but when I came back (2pm) I brought her flowers, chocolate and a card. But I didn't buy them when I felt bad. I waited until lunch when my mindset was different. When i bought them, when i wrote the card, my mindset was not guilt, not crawling, not frustration - instead I had a mindset of love, of giving.

I think it made a big difference. My words on the card would convery a different meaning - not "these are for you because I messed up", but "these are for you because you need cheering up and perhaps these will help". Of course - whether they help or not is up to her... .

They helped.

[Wrongturn1]

The main improvement to my life (and my wife's, I think) is accepting that I can't change enough to make her happy, and that my happiness shouldn't depend on hers.

Bingo!  This is where a non's mindset has to go in order for the improvements in the relationship to be realized.

That's not to say that you shouldn't try and make her happy, in fact I try more now I accepted it will never work.

And this is where nons need to be careful.  Taking actions in an attempt to make the BPD person happy may lead to walking on eggshells, so I would suggest a slightly different approach.  In my experience, once I started losing my codependency (a process that is still not complete) and taking better care of myself, I found that I was able to give to my uBPDw from a position of abundance and kindness - doing nice things for her because I care about her - not because I want to try to make her happy (which I cannot control).  It's a subtle distinction and may have been what PFCI was really talking about.

[PFCI]

The main improvement to my life (and my wife's, I think) is accepting that I can't change enough to make her happy, and that my happiness shouldn't depend on hers.

Bingo!  This is where a non's mindset has to go in order for the improvements in the relationship to be realized.

That's not to say that you shouldn't try and make her happy, in fact I try more now I accepted it will never work.

And this is where nons need to be careful.  Taking actions in an attempt to make the BPD person happy may lead to walking on eggshells, so I would suggest a slightly different approach.  In my experience, once I started losing my codependency (a process that is still not complete) and taking better care of myself, I found that I was able to give to my uBPDw from a position of abundance and kindness - doing nice things for her because I care about her - not because I want to try to make her happy (which I cannot control).  It's a subtle distinction and may have been what PFCI was really talking about.

That's exactly what I meant.I'm feeling happy and good, so it's easy to be nice to my wife just because I feel like doing it, not because I think it will have some effect on our relationship.

[jrharvey]

All I can say is I am sorry your going through this. Its clear that your doing the best you can. Its difficult for me to even read this.

[snowwhite]

I understand that BPD is thought to be related to problems with the seratonin pathways in the brain. Have you tried some of the activities that increase seratonin?

[ArleighBurke]

Exercise has also been shown to be very good therapy. I invite my wife to walk the dog with me, work out at home (weights or walking machine), come to the park with me and the kids, learn dancing at home together, learn dancing out together, bike riding, sitting around laughing with friends, going to a comedy show together... .  no. She doesn't want to do anything except work (school teacher), or sit on the couch and play candy crush.

[Ilovemyhusband]

I feel the same way. My husband makes everything difficult. I will ask him specifically what he wants for supper, because he will complain about everything I make. Yet he will say he doesn't know. I actually stopped asking him because he got so pissed about that question. I feel like they have no idea what they want. Or they think they know, but when you do what they ask, they are not happy about that either. My husband will complain about how I spend to much time cleaning cooking etc... .and so then I spend less time cleaning and more time relaxing with him. Then he goes off about how I'm lazy and never do anything and how the house is a mess etc... .so i will do what he wants but then I feel like he realizes that isn't what he wants either... .because nothing makes him happy. I don't know it's so frustrating. Everything you posted is how my husband responds. I'll try to
Show him how I feel, but it never meets his expectations. It's very mentally draining.

[ArleighBurke]

Yeah - my wife is the same. If I spend time with the kids its "you're spending too much time with the kids". If I tone it down a bit its "you're not spending enough time with the kids"! Same for housework/jobs.

In the end you stop being frustrated about it. You just realise that what he/she says is a reflection of their inner turmoil - their inability to hold and balance multiple desires at once (remember they are black and white) - so you just validate what they are feeling and do what you think is right anyway!

With your husband and meals - have you tried instead of asking "what do you want", saying "I couldn't decide between X and Y - what do you think?". This gives him a much smaller choice, so it may be easier. If he chooses then he has some ownership. And if he specifically feels like Z then he'll probably say that. (This technique is called giving a default choice).

[Ilovemyhusband]

Yes I have said I'm not sure what to make this or this.? He doesn't like that either. He is very picky and there aren't many options to begin with I am new to the site and I M trying my hardest to understand. I am a very emotional person, and it is very hard not to take things personally. The other day I posted my junior prom picture that I found on Facebook. My husband doesn't have Facebook but has access to mine. I didn't see anything wrong with it. I posted it S a throwback picture. Someone pointed it out to my husband and he flipped out about it. I didn't go to prom with my husband I didn't know him then. It was my ex. So he said it was so disrespectful and how I wanted to be width my ex. I told him that I didn't and that I wasn't hiding it. That I had no idea that he would be upset. He took down all of our pictures together and hasn't really talked to me. He cheated on me: years ago and it infuriates me that he can have an affair and blame it on me so in turn is no big deal but I post N old prom picture and it's the end of the world. We have been together 10 years so it's nothing new but so draining and mKes me feel like I'm going crAzy.

[Notwendy]

I can recall the many times I didn't do the right thing to "love" my H. Many times I didn't even see the ST or angry sulking coming- and the "reason" was in the moment- if I did X- well I didn't do Y- if I did Y, well I didn't do Z.

I think it is great to do loving things for your partner, and if people want to do them- then it is good to do them. However, I if the focus is  on changing the other person's perspective. "I will do this so you will think/see differently." these gestures don't seem to work as well.

I did this too- seemed to be jumping through hoops to find something that would make my H understand me. But it seemed to me that no matter what I tried, I couldn't "fix" my marriage the way I wanted to.

It seemed counterintutitive when a 12 step co-dependency sponsor urged me to take my focus off of trying to change my H's feelings and also to see how I was enabling behaviors between us.


The loving acts- if they are done with the focus on changing someone- they can actually feel a bit manipulative. But the same loving gesture done without that focus can feel different to the receiver. The key for me when I am contemplating doing something is to pay attention to my feelings- do I feel resentful? am I acting with an expectation of a change in the other person? Or, am I doing something because, I genuinely want to- regardless of how it is received? It is great to do loving and caring things for people- and to continue them, but also the giver can pay attention to his/her own feelings when doing so.

And the prom picture- many of us didn't marry the person we went to prom with. Yet, if we have happy memories of our high school prom- that is a part of us. Part of being authentic is not feeling we have to hide who we are. I hope we all can look back at those pictures and smile- both at how cute we were then as well as the clothing styles- which my kids think are pretty funny- and know that we have done nothing wrong by reminiscing.


For many of us, we are WOE and hiding parts of who we are to keep the peace, but a gift of love is authenticity- to ourselves and to others. That includes our past and present. I don't suggest we discuss memories and private details about every person we dated before we met our partners- that could be hurtful and isn't relevant to the relationship. But I think we can have our happy childhood memories- prom being one of them if it was.