Lack of logic when arguing

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

Hi,

First post so I'll try to keep it brief. Have recently broken up with my gf who I'm lately suspecting of having BPD or at the very least some serious mental health problems.

She seems to tick all the diagnosis boxes of having BPD apart from the angry outbursts... .at least any leveled at me... .Her previous ex does get some anger directed at him, but i'm not sure if this is just normal behavior.

Anyway, my main question or reason for posting:

 I was wondering if others have had trouble expressing and talking about their concerns to their BPD partners when boundaries have been crossed. I saw my ex happily being felt up inappropriately by someone else for at least a few minutes before I freaked out... .and when I confronted her about this, I just got illogical replies, half truths, and silent treatment. The very first excuse I got was 'It meant nothing to him', which just leaves me baffled. I don't know if my ex is trying to justify it to herself, confused, or just talking complete rubbish.

Anyone else found that talking to some of their partners about their behavior is often illogical and extremely frustrating? I love her so much but can't forgive her need for constant attention of men with disregard to our relationship.

Thanks.

 

[butters]

Hi,

First post so I'll try to keep it brief. Have recently broken up with my gf who I'm lately suspecting of having BPD or at the very least some serious mental health problems.

She seems to tick all the diagnosis boxes of having BPD apart from the angry outbursts... .at least any leveled at me... .Her previous ex does get some anger directed at him, but i'm not sure if this is just normal behavior.

Anyway, my main question or reason for posting:

 I was wondering if others have had trouble expressing and talking about their concerns to their BPD partners when boundaries have been crossed. I saw my ex happily being felt up inappropriately by someone else for at least a few minutes before I freaked out... .and when I confronted her about this, I just got illogical replies, half truths, and silent treatment. The very first excuse I got was 'It meant nothing to him', which just leaves me baffled. I don't know if my ex is trying to justify it to herself, confused, or just talking complete rubbish.

Anyone else found that talking to some of their partners about their behavior is often illogical and extremely frustrating? I love her so much but can't forgive her need for constant attention of men with disregard to our relationship.

Thanks.

 

[Pretty Woman]

This is normal. You start to think you are going crazy. They will boldface do something right in front of you and lie about it, manage to blame you for it and then refuse to hear your side of anything.

That is a huge  I ignored early on.  I truly thought I lost my ability to communicate.

I am a public speaker for God sakes!

In reality it wasn't me at all, not when it came to the twisting of words and blame. Again, it's a case of Actions VS Words. Believe what you SEE versus what they tell you. Their actions tell the truth.

 
PW

[butters]

Thanks for the reply... .After doing a lot of reading on here I'm starting to see a lot of gas lighting issues. Do you think this is gas lighting?

Me: " You seem really drunk, what have you had to drink"
Her : "I had a lager"

I found out later, yes she had a lager... .but also had lots of wine too. Technically, she didn't lie, but she was deceiving?

This is just one example of many. I don't know if she genuinely sees this as communicating properly or whether she knows she is being dishonest. It's a mind fk.

Anyways, I was going NC from her, then she took an overdose. Her family want me to support her as a friend but I'm finding it really difficult. No longer can i talk about her infidelity... .How dare I after she has taken an OD... that should take priority! That's more or less as she sees it.

Sorry to ramble, don't really know what I'm looking for. Just looking for closure or understanding, which i gather is not going to happen.

Thanks for listening.

[fromheeltoheal]

Hi butters-

And welcome!  I'm sorry you're going through that, it is very painful and confusing, although it's not rare around here, we understand.

Just looking for closure or understanding, which i gather is not going to happen.

You can get closure, by creating it yourself, and that can end up more powerful.  And you can understand the disorder and why borderlines do what they do, which will eliminate the confusion, doesn't make the behaviors acceptable, but at least the confusion can go away, plus, you're not alone. 

Here's a great article you might get some value from:

https://bpdfamily.com/content/surviving-break-when-your-partner-has-borderline-personality

[joeramabeme]

Anyway, my main question or reason for posting:

I was wondering if others have had trouble expressing and talking about their concerns to their BPD partners when boundaries have been crossed... .  I just got illogical replies, half truths, and silent treatment... .

Anyone else found that talking to some of their partners about their behavior is often illogical and extremely frustrating? I love her so much but can't forgive her need for constant attention of men with disregard to our relationship.

Hi butters

Yes!  this is what I exactly found.  You summarized it well;  "illogical replies, half truths, and silent treatment".  In addition, my ex would also get angry and tell me all the reasons why I was to blame for her feelings and actions and then fabricate stories as to why I caused her upset.  Sadly, much of what she would counter-fact me with would have a degree of truth to it and yet was sequentially illogical given the behaviors I was asking to address. 

The literature says that pwBPD do not have a solid sense of self and therefore are constantly looking to others to validate their internal sense of self (or lack of it).  I would guess that if she were letting herself be felt up like this that it was in direct relation to a feeling she was having about herself.  Your questioning her is equivalent to questioning the feeling that she is trying to validate.  Instead of getting a logical response to her behaviors, you are getting a logical response to what is going on inside her; emotional chaos. 

For us non's, we get pulled in to the chaos by trying to reconcile two halves of a split person; they can't do it as evidenced by their words and behaviors and we can't do it for them as evidenced by our responses to their illogical behaviors.  This behavior doesn't negate the parts of them that are so enticing to us, but we need to integrate and accept that they are both people we see; split.

"Frustrating" is an understatement. 

It sounds like you have been dating this woman for awhile, how long?  What is the nature of your r/s with her now? 

[Fr4nz]

Hey butters,

yes, unfortunately with BPD sufferers it is the rule to be subject to gaslighting, blameshifting, and so on; it is very often impossible to use logic with them, or to even have a simple civil dialogue.

Sometimes, when I wanted to discuss civilly about some problem, she started with some crazy, raging monologue, without allowing me to express my thoughts.

Just to give an example, once she was so angry, that her face was completely red and she was drooling from her mouth... .quite a demonic view!

When I lamented her approach to discussions, she just said that it was not her fault if she wanted to discuss issues passionately
To me, it just seemed incredibly childish.

So, the problem is, their way of thinking is dysfunctional and broken, their perception of reality is very distorted, and they cannot regulate emotions, especially when under stress.

All in all, this is far from good, because in the end I tried to adapt to her dysfunctional way of discussing things, so I was raging in response to her rages... .over time, with all her drama, I slightly lost my ability to keep calm and not rage.

When you cited your ex's alcohol problem you made me laugh, because my ex had constant problems with alcohol (under the form of binge drinking, especially wine), and she was in complete denial about that. When I tried to discuss about the issues, her reactions were... ."atomic", to say the least  

Fromheel is right, with BPD sufferers it's impossible to have closure... .hence, you need to have closure by yourself; it takes time and effort, it may be painful, but in the end it will be so much empowering (and you won't need closure from your ex).

[statsattack]

Mine was like that also.

[butters]

Thanks all for your replies.

   I was with my ex for just over a year. For the last 9 months she and her daughter had been living with me. It all snow balled quickly but we both thought we had found our soul mates. I was the knight in shining armour rescuing her from her abusive ex(who she left for me), and she is the kindest, most thoughtful person I have ever met. It's so confusing.

   Joe, I am still a little confused by her actions of being physical with someone else. Am i right in thinking she behaved that way because she felt insecure or unloved and needed a 'pick me up'?

   I have yet to get anything concrete or definitive off her for her behavior. I've had excuses... .from it not happening, from her being 'just friendly', and to get back at me and her ex(her ex knew the guy that was all over her). What is weird though, is that she told me that she had cheated on practically all her other boyfriends. Why she told me this, I don't know. I thought I was special and that she wouldn't do it to me, even though I saw time and time again of her being overly flirty and desperate in need of validation from men. This seemed to get worse after drinking. And some of the horror stories she told me about being taken 'advantage' of when she was drunk were horrifying. I don't know if i'm losing my mind but i'm starting to wonder if she told me all this to 'keep me on my toes' or something. Sorry, im rambling.

   Fr4nz, my ex was totally a binge drinker. She managed to stop drinking everyday when we first hooked up(took awhile), but her drinking couldn't be controlled. Like a box of pringles, once she popped, she couldn't stop, until she was black out drunk and a mess. We tried to moderate her drinking but it never lasted.

   At the moment, I am in a tricky situation. After her OD, her family have asked if i can just support her as a friend. I've tried and this is impossible for me to attain because my emotions from her previous behaviour keep rising and it's so frustrating to not talk to her about what happened. Indeed, she sees her OD as a reason not to talk about the past.

   And to make it worse, I saw that she was online this morning, dropped a quick message asking if she was ok and she has now given me the silent treatment... .So i've gone from NC to now waiting to hear from her. I feel like im being manipulated but I also can't help feeling like im being too sensitive and paranoid. My head is a mess from over thinking things but it's helping to write and read on these messageboards.

  Thanks all.

[joeramabeme]

I was the knight in shining armour rescuing her from her abusive ex(who she left for me), and she is the kindest, most thoughtful person I have ever met. It's so confusing.

Confusing it is.  The hard part is to detach from trying to understand her.  It is a sign of good health that you can't - even though it leaves you in a position of reconciling your experiences as a boyfriend and her BP behaviors - which is very confusing. 

To your point about her being the most kindest and thoughtful; this was my experience as well.  In some ways, I believe my exes warm-thoughtful side is an overcompensation; not in the sense of being intentionally manipulative or false, rather, it is her trying to bring out the best of herself to offset and account for the other side that she is aware of, but not connected to.  I still cherish and miss the wonderful parts of who my ex is - and she really is those things. 

But, this is misleading because it only represents 1/2 of the complete person.  We start seeing flashes of the other side as greater levels of emotional intimacy develop.  Fear of abandonment and enmeshment become activated.  Suppressed feelings uncontrollably surface and we are at odds to see how someone who is so sincere and thoughtful can also be caustic, cold and aloof.  Only to have them flip back to being thoughtful and kind again as if nothing happened.

   Joe, I am still a little confused by her actions of being physical with someone else. Am i right in thinking she behaved that way because she felt insecure or unloved and needed a 'pick me up'?

I am not sure if she needed a "pick me up", perhaps.  What I was attempting to point out is that her behaviors are likely driven by her own sense of self (or lack of it) and are probably not a reflection about you, rather, her behaviors are more a reflection of her own internal emotions.  You have likely been objectified by her.  For example, that is my boyfriend (an object) and so this is what will happen with a boyfriend if I do xyz... .  Where the ideas come from about the objects (loved ones) in their life are likely an accumulation of what she has seen, learned and fantasized about as much as anything else.

At the moment, I am in a tricky situation. After her OD, her family have asked if i can just support her as a friend. I've tried and this is impossible for me to attain because my emotions from her previous behaviour keep rising and it's so frustrating to not talk to her about what happened. Indeed, she sees her OD as a reason not to talk about the past.

This is a tough one because it would require you to be more completely reconciled with your romantic feelings for her and it does not sound like that is the case. 

Can you talk with her family and let them know that you care about her but have too many feelings that are too raw to simply be a platonic friend?  I am not trying to put words in your mouth, just giving you an idea of how you could address this if my understanding is accurate.

Overall, how are you doing with detaching?  I see that she is giving you the silent treatment, another form of control.  Is this eating away at you?  Have you considered that she may need emotional distance from you to feel safe?

[lovenature]

I am still a little confused by her actions of being physical with someone else.

It sounds like you got close enough with her to trigger her fear of engulfment, fearing you would abandon her, she relishes the attention from other men (replacements). Once I got too close/intimate with my ex., she cheated and projected her behaviour onto me.

PWBPD are known to have "orbiters", according to them they are friends of the opposite sex, the reality is that they need an attachment to exist. Always remember that they have a serious mental illness; all of their defensive behaviours (including gas lighting), is them making up their own reality to fit their current emotion of the moment.

[Aussie0zborn]

I was the knight in shining armour rescuing her from her abusive ex (who she left for me), and she is the kindest, most thoughtful person I have ever met.

How is it that they all have "abusive ex-partners"? I've been labelled one too now and you will be, too. Jumping out of one relationship and into another is a red flag that you missed. My ex criticised me for having been single for ten years while she had "always been in a relationship". She dragged my replacement out of her past and lined him up to be the knight in shining armour he always wanted to be even before our marriage ended. For pwBPD, changing partners is like us changing shoes. White knights never get any thanks.

 

I am still a little confused by her actions of being physical with someone else. Am i right in thinking she behaved that way because she felt insecure or unloved and needed a 'pick me up'?

My experience on this topic is that they need the attention and they don't care where it comes from or how detrimental it might be to your relationship. And if you don't like it, she can blame it all on you for being "inattentive" to her whims/needs.

 she told me that she had cheated on practically all her other boyfriends. Why she told me this, I don't know. I thought I was special and that she wouldn't do it to me, even though I saw time and time again of her being overly flirty and desperate in need of validation from men.

We all think we're special until we realise that we could have been anybody. If it wasn't you "rescuing" her from her supposed "abusive ex", she would have gone with the next guy. There's nothing special about us... .they just have the knack of making us believe this. It's the biggest lie they will perpetuate.

My experience is that she told you this to :

(a) warn you
(b) see if you're smart enough to heed and act on this warning
(c) gauge where you sit on the F.O.G. scale.

my ex was totally a binge drinker... .Like a box of pringles, once she popped, she couldn't stop, until she was black out drunk and a mess.

I was thinking I was married to this same woman but now you've confirmed it.

After her OD, her family have asked if i can just support her as a friend... .Indeed, she sees her OD as a reason not to talk about the past.

No - that's what family is for. And ofcourse, the OD is to take the heat off her and show you up for the non-caring self-centred person that you will be accused of being. They feel their  survival depends on how well they can manipulate the host. They don't let go easily.

I saw that she was online this morning, dropped a quick message asking if she was ok and she has now given me the silent treatment... .

Had you not contacted her, would you be feeling like this now? Please read up on the benefits of "NO CONTACT" and see how you can avoid further manipulation.

You sound like a smart guy, not too totally wrecked by this (so far). How far into the abyss do you want to go now and how will this help you to detach?

[Rayban]

   We all think we're special until we realise that we could have been anybody. If it wasn't you "rescuing" her from her supposed "abusive ex", she would have gone with the next guy. There's nothing special about us... .they just have the knack of making us believe this. It's the biggest lie they will perpetuate.

My experience is that she told you this to :

(a) warn you
(b) see if you're smart enough to heed and act on this warning
(c) gauge where you sit on the F.O.G. scale. 


   

Butters, This is your time to exit.  If you decide to continue the relationship despite the warnings  (being fondled by other men in front of you, promiscuity, binge drinking etc) she will just keep draining your self esteem and ultimately your self worth.

Next you will be made to believe that you are deservant of the mistreatment and should be happy with any crumbs she throws you after that. You will be like a captured animal in a locked cage. Unable to escape and having to experience all the hurt she will continue to inflict until there is nothing left.

Don't accept her behaviour. She will continue to test how much you are willing to accept.  If you continue to give her access to your psyche she will have believing you are the crazy one. No contact is the way to go here. This is your chance to escape. Otherwise you will be made to pay for seeing behind the mask. What does it say of us if we are exposed to the cheating, lying, gaslighting, binge drinking, triangulation and we still want to believe the fantasy that we are special and loved and are ready to stick around for more abuse. Sorry if this is too direct,  but I just see to many patterns that I experienced myself and wished I had listened to my gutt and gotten out earlier. 

[Fr4nz]

For pwBPD, changing partners is like us changing shoes. White knights never get any thanks.

My ex told me exactly this when she substituted me for her new fiancee, i.e., she was replacing me like you replace an old dress with a new, fancy one.

I think that this kind objectification, together with the grave lack of decency, empathy and consideration that inevitably follows, speaks volumes about the horrible disorder governing their souls... .