Question about Converstion with my mom

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hi all,

I have just joined and find this board quite helpful. After reading the lessons on communication and validation, I am still stuck on where a recent conversation with my mother went into very negative territory and would like to understand what I missed.

To give a bit of background, I live long distance from my mother and keep in contact by phone. Phone conversations with her last anywhere from a minimum of an hour and a half to over 2 hours. They consist of one-sided listening on my part - 95% of my mother's emotionally laden rambling, often hard to follow, make sense of and also laden with three things in a highly emotional state:

- going over ancient history of the many ways she has been hurt, let down, neglected and betrayed (my parents divorced after a nasty battle in the early 1980s)

- tearing down family members (including my siblings, my father and my step-mother) and former friends of hers for unforgivable faults she finds with them

- poking for gossip and private information about my siblings and her grandchildren (my 2 adult children, school age niece and teen nephew) by coming up with wild scenarios as well as insulting critiques of them. This is one of her methods of perpetuating a drama triangle of division in the family. I have no idea if she is consiciously doing this or if it is negative facet of her mixed up state which she simply does compulsively. At any rate, It doesn't matter as the damaging potential to family relations is what is concerning. Not to mention when she contiues this toxic dump into the next generation, it makes me angry.

- emotionally incestuous topics

- "hot" topics such as politics, religion, sex and anything salacious in the news, which she is addicted to watching


When I describe this as one-way, I am being accurate. It is a barrage and exhausting. The negativity for one is hard to keep a barrier from getting down from. The fact that it is not an exchange, but literally a "dump" with sporadic attempts at eliciting juicy gossip, is spirit-draining. I have learned (I think? I hope) to put some distance between the onslaught I am listening to and not get dragged down. It is tough, though. The conversation starts with a glib show of caring about anything I have to share about my life. When I answer, I get interrupted and that is about the last time I am for all intents treated as a participant, unless of course, some "dirt" is being called upon for me to throw in. I do not comply to this, which has the effect of frustrating her (it seems) and can make her ramp up the snipes at me or get even more pushy and outrageous.

My method has been to distract and change the topic. It works to an extent, as my mother is easily distracted. But, it does nothing to change the general hateful tone. There is no shortage of targets for her to rail against.


Here is my recent scenario and I will have a question after describing it:

A few weeks ago during one of these phone calls my mother was in a rare semi-pleasant mood, excitedly talking about shopping for a sofa. The beginning of the call was going good in comparison to the usual jumping into complaints. She actually listened without interrupting and changing to topic to herself and all of the things bothering her, after asking about how my daughters were doing. Great.

Unfortunately, she had been watching CNN from the time she woke up until that evening. The tv stays on, by the way, full blast, during these calls. She started to get worked up and get into politics. Thankfully because she rarely stops to allow someone else's input, I can deal with not getting into this hot topic with her by basically inserting the odd "Oh, that is Intersting" or "I didn't know that" in a non-commital way.

The problem I find is that once she gets onto a verbal roll with things like this, she goes from one thing to another (to me and others, with no rhyme or reason). Perhaps to her mind there is some connecting tangent somewhere, but to anyone else listening it can be jarring and it is hard not to start losing the plot.

She started into religion. At some point when there was moment to speak, I asked her a question about the church we belonged to (yet my parents rarely attended). I was sent to a Catholic school part of this parish. My question was from something I could not remember from my childhood. I have been doing my family tree and was curious about something. Well, I think this was a big mistake. But, am not sure. This is why I would really appreciate some feedback and other opinions. All I asked for was about documents. She got really defensive and started to attack me. From this simple request, she went into a vitriolic accusation against me about something she imagines happened when I was a teenager and my parents were going through a daily and nightly violent fights, ultimately a split and divorce.

Now, I don't want to for privacy sake go into the exact details of what she is accusing me of. The thing is that it never happened. It is outrageous, paranoid and completely a figment of her imagination. This is nothing new with her. But, this time, as with some other times, it came out of the blue. I was shocked, as in completely out of left field bewildered, hurt, and quite frankly angry to be hearing my mom insisting I did this horrible thing to her. On top of which she, at this point sounded like she was spitting into the phone about me, "You were laughing at me the whole time!" She was accusing me of sitting with a sworn enemy of hers (my step-mother before she became my step-mother and before I even knew her) in church at Christmas mass and that I turned around smugly (in her description of this event that never happened) and laughing at her in a mocking way.

How does one not defend one's self? This is a horrendous and vicious thing to accuse someone of doing. I did manage to keep my cool even though I was dying inside. So, I have along in my abilities. I didn't immediately dive into aMary and hurt defense (even though I was feeling the sorrow and pain of every time my mother vilified me in my life with paranoid charges against me). I breathed and tried to remember she is sick and that her imaginings and attacks can't hurt me anymore unless I let them. After breathing, I (at least to my recollection) calmly told her this did not happen. I explained the time line and that it was impossible. I also told her that I am sorry she was hurt so badly by my father (validating), that I can totally understand how betraying it was for her and humiliating (he cheated on her) and I am very sorry she had to suffer this. I genuinely feel this way. So, I did empathize.

I also felt it was important to add some truth. Unfortunately the truth directly contradicts my mother's delusion that I purposely made a mockery of her in church - something I would never do and is so gross it makes my hair stand on end. She insists this happened. How does one use truth with this? Is it even possible?



Edit to Add: I am the scapegoat, the black sheep, target for hate and violence when my mother lost control and would rage, and "just like the old man/ass... .fill in the blank"



The above "conversation" ended abruptly when my mom, screaming into the phone cursed me out and hung up by slamming the phone down.

[trailwalker]

Hi all,

I have just joined and find this board quite helpful. After reading the lessons on communication and validation, I am still stuck on where a recent conversation with my mother went into very negative territory and would like to understand what I missed.

To give a bit of background, I live long distance from my mother and keep in contact by phone. Phone conversations with her last anywhere from a minimum of an hour and a half to over 2 hours. They consist of one-sided listening on my part - 95% of my mother's emotionally laden rambling, often hard to follow, make sense of and also laden with three things in a highly emotional state:

- going over ancient history of the many ways she has been hurt, let down, neglected and betrayed (my parents divorced after a nasty battle in the early 1980s)

- tearing down family members (including my siblings, my father and my step-mother) and former friends of hers for unforgivable faults she finds with them

- poking for gossip and private information about my siblings and her grandchildren (my 2 adult children, school age niece and teen nephew) by coming up with wild scenarios as well as insulting critiques of them. This is one of her methods of perpetuating a drama triangle of division in the family. I have no idea if she is consiciously doing this or if it is negative facet of her mixed up state which she simply does compulsively. At any rate, It doesn't matter as the damaging potential to family relations is what is concerning. Not to mention when she contiues this toxic dump into the next generation, it makes me angry.

- emotionally incestuous topics

- "hot" topics such as politics, religion, sex and anything salacious in the news, which she is addicted to watching


When I describe this as one-way, I am being accurate. It is a barrage and exhausting. The negativity for one is hard to keep a barrier from getting down from. The fact that it is not an exchange, but literally a "dump" with sporadic attempts at eliciting juicy gossip, is spirit-draining. I have learned (I think? I hope) to put some distance between the onslaught I am listening to and not get dragged down. It is tough, though. The conversation starts with a glib show of caring about anything I have to share about my life. When I answer, I get interrupted and that is about the last time I am for all intents treated as a participant, unless of course, some "dirt" is being called upon for me to throw in. I do not comply to this, which has the effect of frustrating her (it seems) and can make her ramp up the snipes at me or get even more pushy and outrageous.

My method has been to distract and change the topic. It works to an extent, as my mother is easily distracted. But, it does nothing to change the general hateful tone. There is no shortage of targets for her to rail against.


Here is my recent scenario and I will have a question after describing it:

A few weeks ago during one of these phone calls my mother was in a rare semi-pleasant mood, excitedly talking about shopping for a sofa. The beginning of the call was going good in comparison to the usual jumping into complaints. She actually listened without interrupting and changing to topic to herself and all of the things bothering her, after asking about how my daughters were doing. Great.

Unfortunately, she had been watching CNN from the time she woke up until that evening. The tv stays on, by the way, full blast, during these calls. She started to get worked up and get into politics. Thankfully because she rarely stops to allow someone else's input, I can deal with not getting into this hot topic with her by basically inserting the odd "Oh, that is Intersting" or "I didn't know that" in a non-commital way.

The problem I find is that once she gets onto a verbal roll with things like this, she goes from one thing to another (to me and others, with no rhyme or reason). Perhaps to her mind there is some connecting tangent somewhere, but to anyone else listening it can be jarring and it is hard not to start losing the plot.

She started into religion. At some point when there was moment to speak, I asked her a question about the church we belonged to (yet my parents rarely attended). I was sent to a Catholic school part of this parish. My question was from something I could not remember from my childhood. I have been doing my family tree and was curious about something. Well, I think this was a big mistake. But, am not sure. This is why I would really appreciate some feedback and other opinions. All I asked for was about documents. She got really defensive and started to attack me. From this simple request, she went into a vitriolic accusation against me about something she imagines happened when I was a teenager and my parents were going through a daily and nightly violent fights, ultimately a split and divorce.

Now, I don't want to for privacy sake go into the exact details of what she is accusing me of. The thing is that it never happened. It is outrageous, paranoid and completely a figment of her imagination. This is nothing new with her. But, this time, as with some other times, it came out of the blue. I was shocked, as in completely out of left field bewildered, hurt, and quite frankly angry to be hearing my mom insisting I did this horrible thing to her. On top of which she, at this point sounded like she was spitting into the phone about me, "You were laughing at me the whole time!" She was accusing me of sitting with a sworn enemy of hers (my step-mother before she became my step-mother and before I even knew her) in church at Christmas mass and that I turned around smugly (in her description of this event that never happened) and laughing at her in a mocking way.

How does one not defend one's self? This is a horrendous and vicious thing to accuse someone of doing. I did manage to keep my cool even though I was dying inside. So, I have along in my abilities. I didn't immediately dive into aMary and hurt defense (even though I was feeling the sorrow and pain of every time my mother vilified me in my life with paranoid charges against me). I breathed and tried to remember she is sick and that her imaginings and attacks can't hurt me anymore unless I let them. After breathing, I (at least to my recollection) calmly told her this did not happen. I explained the time line and that it was impossible. I also told her that I am sorry she was hurt so badly by my father (validating), that I can totally understand how betraying it was for her and humiliating (he cheated on her) and I am very sorry she had to suffer this. I genuinely feel this way. So, I did empathize.

I also felt it was important to add some truth. Unfortunately the truth directly contradicts my mother's delusion that I purposely made a mockery of her in church - something I would never do and is so gross it makes my hair stand on end. She insists this happened. How does one use truth with this? Is it even possible?



Edit to Add: I am the scapegoat, the black sheep, target for hate and violence when my mother lost control and would rage, and "just like the old man/ass... .fill in the blank"



The above "conversation" ended abruptly when my mom, screaming into the phone cursed me out and hung up by slamming the phone down.

[Panda39]

Hi trailwalker,
It sounds like you could use some boundaries when talking to your mom.  You do not have to sit on marathon phone calls filled with negativity, vitriol, and yelling…that is abusive.  Below are links to more information on Boundaries….

https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a120.htm

https://bpdfamily.com/content/values-and-boundaries

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368.0

How about the next time she starts yelling you ask her to stop yelling using a SET (Support, Empathy, Truth) response, something like… I know you’re upset mom, I understand how “stepmom” hurt you, but I would appreciate it if you would stop yelling at me.  If she continues to yell let her know that you will hang up the phone.  If she still continues then hang up the phone.

There is absolutely no reason you have to be held prisoner on the phone.

Below are some links regarding SET…

https://bpdfamily.com/content/ending-conflict

https://bpdfamily.com/bpdresources/nk_a104.htm

When thinking of boundaries think of a little kid in the store that wants candy and mom says no, then the kid starts whining and mom still says no, then the kid starts having a screaming crying tantrum.  This will be your mom when you try to set a new boundary, it might not be fun.  Just like the screaming kid in the grocery store isn’t fun but the thing is when you set  boundary and stick with it your mom like the screaming kid will learn that that kind of behavior will not be tolerated and they will not get what they want by acting that way.  Eventually, that negative behavior will happen less and less.

So it’s about setting a boundary and enforcing it and enforcing it over and over again until your mom gets the message.

I hope I’ve been of help, I know other members will be along soon with more ideas, comments and information.

Take Care,
Panda39

[trailwalker]

Hi Panda39,

Good point about boundaries.

I will clarify, as it might not have been so clear in my post. My mom only started the yelling at the end of the comversation, just before she slammed the phone down. I do practice this boundary setting when she gets to the point of dis-respectful interaction and have called a stop to the interaction. I think she knows this will happen with me as I have practiced it since my late twenties. When she starts to get out of hand, end-of-story. I am no longer going to listen.

I believe her hanging up is an immature sort of one-up-manship. She told me to go to Hell, among other choice words.  From my having experienced her rages before being shut down (calling it quits, not listening to her attacks anymore, walking out of the room) is taken as a severe rejection/snub and enrages her further. So basically, she gets in the "door slam" first now, when she knows I am done. At least that is how I see it.

I think I am pretty good at noticing when the negativity is going too far and I do set boundaries. When she gets into plain tearing apart people I care for, I tell her I will have to go. I am not taking part in this in any way.

When she started in on attacking me, I told her twice (although it might have been hard for her to hear me over her own voice) that I was going to go.

Other than that, I am not sure what else I can do. Your point about the ramping up temper tantrum when she doesn't get her way is well taken. I think this part of the problem. I don't give her her dose of satisfaction in that I do not give out emotionality and I think this actually bugs the life out of her and perhaps contributes to her getting more and more outrageous.

I am still trying to understand, though. I have had dealings with a few other people similar to my mom, one being someone in my social circle that I unfortunately have to deal with. I find that when she does not get attention, she just keeps at it upping the drama and ridiculousness volume. So, ignoring her in this instance seems to backfire.

I will read those links. Thanks.