We talked on the phone last night

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

hello all,

I don't know what to say . . . . We talked on the phone last night. I was caught a bit by surprise, but we talked. She says that all the chaos of how we split was the psychosis of the bipolar. She say it was rotten timing but that she would have ended with things differently if she could have and at a different time. It leaves me having to trust in a way that's quite bizarre because in effect I am asked to say that two things 1. the psychosis and 2. the termination of our love relationship are not related in any way except by timing.

She wants to be friends, but I still feel like some kind of high functioning BPD is at work. The way that she cannot quite seem to understand the devastation she has created is right now utterly beyond my imagination. Last night's conversation was good in its own way, yet I feel newly shattered by it. My choice now to remain in friendship is one that is too much for to digest in a single bite. I need to have some space and the room to chew it a bit at a time. In the meantime, some sleep would be good.

[Renard]

hello all,

I don't know what to say . . . . We talked on the phone last night. I was caught a bit by surprise, but we talked. She says that all the chaos of how we split was the psychosis of the bipolar. She say it was rotten timing but that she would have ended with things differently if she could have and at a different time. It leaves me having to trust in a way that's quite bizarre because in effect I am asked to say that two things 1. the psychosis and 2. the termination of our love relationship are not related in any way except by timing.

She wants to be friends, but I still feel like some kind of high functioning BPD is at work. The way that she cannot quite seem to understand the devastation she has created is right now utterly beyond my imagination. Last night's conversation was good in its own way, yet I feel newly shattered by it. My choice now to remain in friendship is one that is too much for to digest in a single bite. I need to have some space and the room to chew it a bit at a time. In the meantime, some sleep would be good.

[Warcleods]

Renard,

My exBPD tried the same stuff.  It was a cycle that she would go through every 1 to 2 weeks.  She would tell me that she wanted to be "friends," and I would agree to be there for her but she would quickly break the friendship boundary.  I would tell her that I would be her friend but the dynamic of the relationship needed to change dramatically.  She didn't like that idea, she wanted the sex, romance, closeness, fun but wanted to remain friends but not feel the pressure of exclusiveness.  It was always so puzzling to me that she would request one thing and do the complete opposite.  Her behavior matches her impulsiveness and her inability to set boundaries for herself and actually abide by them.   To me that indicates selfishness, lack of values and disrespect for other people.

I quickly realized that the end of our relationship was going to be dramatic by means of her finding my replacement.  I got out before that humiliation began. I could feel it and my instincts told me to get out.  She would always need to have someone accompanying her, couldn't stand being by herself and her thoughts.  I understood that I cannot be with her 24/7 and her lack of empathy and boundaries meant that she would seek out others to distract herself from, well, herself.  Her behavior, history and bizarre way of thinking was the evidence I needed that I couldn't trust this person with my dog.  It's sad because I really did try to give my everything to her.  

At this juncture, I still miss her sorely and think about her everyday, but I cannot and will not allow myself to be sucked down the rabbit hole she calls her life any more.  

[Renard]

Warcleods,

Thanks for letting me see things from your perspective. That sounds very difficult and confusing--and it sounds as though you made a difficult but wise choice.

My partner is not transgressing on the boundary of friendship. Instead, I am more in the mode of trying to understand whether there was any love between us in the first place. I am feeling pretty wounded, so I find myself to trying to figure out how such a good person could not be a woman of her word.

She is really high functioning, so much so that I still hesitate to call her BPD without some reservation. Still, even when I do all in my power to stand in the place of radical acceptance, I cannot fully overcome my sense of betrayal. I confess I always thought if she and I hit difficulty in our relationship that we would work it through. Instead, there was no warning, just a horrible nightmare of splitting. The re-contact and request for friendship is something I am still trying to work my way through. I love her so much that I want to honour all that she asks and does, yet I am trying to sort what that means for me.

[myself]

It's fine for you to take some time to figure this out. To feel healthier and deal with the wounds. If she's meant to be a friend, it'll still happen. The choice doesn't need to be made today. Time will help show how serious she is about it (or not) as her actions play out and it isn't just words.

My ex wanted to still be 'friends'. Part of her reason to even ask, beside just being afraid to let go of the attachment, was it would appear as if she wasn't such a terrible person if I'd still be in touch with her. It would help her be off the hook for the damage she had caused. Which in many ways wouldn't encourage her to look inside of herself and change her own negative patterns. She was such a boundary breaker though I knew she wouldn't be able to control herself, not even while not in a relationship.  

Real friends meet up in the middle somewhere, by choice. If the other person is hurting you, or it's all about them, or they're being too controlling... .I had one 'good friend' recently stop being in contact, saying she didn't have time or inclination to initiate contact with anyone in her life (when she obviously did, posting many hundreds of times this year alone on a well-known website), lying about things we both knew were true, changing her stories, denying and projecting blame for hurtful things she'd done... .So, OK, goodbye. It sucks, but, better to face reality. Again, it's actions not words. This is someone who's supposedly a 'non', so, with a disorder/traits involved it's even more of an uphill struggle. Best of luck, whichever way you go with this. Do what's best for You. Be a good friend to yourself.

[Warcleods]

Thank you Renard.

I had to make this decision.  I couldn't take the confusion, uncertainty and I needed stability.  None of which she could provide.  Not only for me, but for herself.

I understand your reservations behind trying to determine whether she loved you or not.  I still struggle with this same question regarding my ex.  What I have found for myself is that it doesn't matter whether she loved me or not.  What matters the most if that I loved myself enough to recognize that I was allowing her words and many times in-actions to dictate my happiness.  It was starting to affect my physical health, even only after a short 4 months after I really saw the BPD traits start to emerge.  

While my ex was undiagnosed, and I was ignorant to what BPD was until after we broke up, she definitely falls in the spectrum of a medium functioning waif with some overlap of histrionic PD.  My ex would brag about how emotionally mature she was and wanted to talk things out like "adults."  She could never do that, any type of conflict in the relationship translated into her convincing herself that we were just not good for each other.  She always just wanted to run.  That same behavior manifested itself outside of our relationship as well.  With previous jobs, personal goals, other interpersonal conflicts with others etc.  This woman mastered the art of projection and masquerading as someone with their stuff together.  I got to know her very intimately and she is anything but what she projected.

What really hurts me the most Renard is the fact that I still find myself internalizing and trying to fix this woman even though we are not speaking anymore.    

My ex did the whole friendship thing for purely selfish reasons.  It had nothing to do with my feelings or desires and everything to do with her needing me when it was convenient for her.   You have to consider that is what might be going on here.  Going from lovers to friends overnight takes a special kind of detachment that normal people just aren't capable of.  I told her that I may never be able to be her friend because of the deep feelings I had for her.  And initially, while I did attempt the friendship thing, I quickly communicated to her that it wasn't going to work for me.  She couldn't empathize with that and frankly didn't care.

[Renard]

It's fine for you to take some time to figure this out. To feel healthier and deal with the wounds. If she's meant to be a friend, it'll still happen. The choice doesn't need to be made today. Time will help show how serious she is about it (or not) as her actions play out and it isn't just words.

Myself, thanks for your post. I do think you're right. I really have some hope that time will let me and both us know if there is anything real between us. I need some time to mend, that's for sure.

[Renard]

Thank you Renard.



 Going from lovers to friends overnight takes a special kind of detachment that normal people just aren't capable of.  I told her that I may never be able to be her friend because of the deep feelings I had for her.  And initially, while I did attempt the friendship thing, I quickly communicated to her that it wasn't going to work for me.  She couldn't empathize with that and frankly didn't care.

Warcleods,

You're welcome, yet thank you. Your comment about the abrupt switch--from being lovers to friends is the one I keep trying to comprehend. I keep thinking that if she is who I think she is then she will have the ability to want to work things out. She keeps saying friends "right now" and she keeps open the idea that we might be able to resume. I know she is truly shattered by what happened (she is also bipolar and ended up in the hospital, jeopardized some bridges at work and so on), so it is only right that I give her mending room.

[Warcleods]

Yep, that's what my ex said as well.  Friends now with the possibility of something later.  That's a very generalized statement and the expectation is that I am going to wait around for whenever that may be and very possibly, never.  You'll never get into her mind and feel what she feels.  Don't allow yourself to sit at the mercy of someone else's graces and expect them to keep a promise or the premise of something.  You need to live your life and move on.  I know it's hard, I am also struggling immensely to do so but it's what I have to do.

[patientandclear]

Friends with the possibility of something else later is also what my ex wBPD has offered. I agree with Warcleods. Two additional thoughts: the "friends" definition means you can have no expectations, while you are supposed to keep making yourself vulnerable to the person. Not the best environment for trust on both sides. And it appears to me that, once the pwBPD secures this arrangement, there is no reason they would ever shift back into a r/ship of more formal accountability. Why do that? They can get all they want/need in the friends arrangement without the risk of loss that comes with a failed romantic r/ship. I came to see, with the help of people from here, that for my ex, "friends" meant "no rules I can be accused of violating and thus no risk of feeling like a failure and no risk of losing you." Who can blame them for trying for this, if they don't think they can pull off a real r/ship? But it's sort of a set up for being used and betrayed, and it's certainly off-balance and, in a way, dishonest.

[Renard]

Yep, that's what my ex said as well.  Friends now with the possibility of something later.  That's a very generalized statement and the expectation is that I am going to wait around for whenever that may be and very possibly, never.  You'll never get into her mind and feel what she feels.  Don't allow yourself to sit at the mercy of someone else's graces and expect them to keep a promise or the premise of something.  You need to live your life and move on.  I know it's hard, I am also struggling immensely to do so but it's what I have to do.

Warcleods,

Agreed: the generalized statement is what's so troubling. She is not that kind of person, yet here she is leaving things fuzzy. If she was able to send a clearer message then I would stick with her no matter what. For the time being, I will give her some room because I know she's been through some hell with the bipolar and BPD landing simultaneously.

I do need to get on with my life, though. I am trying to find the right balance: getting on with my life means I am leaving room in it for her, yet I leave that choice to her. I think of this approach as a bit of both-and rather than either-or thinking. I'm not sure how long I keep things this way, but I love my partner. She deserves some healing time and the freedom to choose our relationship. By the same token, I need to care for myself and need to get back into my own life.

My position might be ultimately impossible, but I can neither put my life on hold nor can I life as if I feel no love for her. 

[Renard]

Friends with the possibility of something else later is also what my ex wBPD has offered. I agree with Warcleods. Two additional thoughts: the "friends" definition means you can have no expectations, while you are supposed to keep making yourself vulnerable to the person. Not the best environment for trust on both sides. And it appears to me that, once the pwBPD secures this arrangement, there is no reason they would ever shift back into a r/ship of more formal accountability. Why do that? They can get all they want/need in the friends arrangement without the risk of loss that comes with a failed romantic r/ship. I came to see, with the help of people from here, that for my ex, "friends" meant "no rules I can be accused of violating and thus no risk of feeling like a failure and no risk of losing you." Who can blame them for trying for this, if they don't think they can pull off a real r/ship? But it's sort of a set up for being used and betrayed, and it's certainly off-balance and, in a way, dishonest.

Patientandclear,

Thanks. You comments are pretty uncanny. My partner has said that she doesn't think she can manage any kind of relationship with anyone, so friendship between us would be very, very good to her. On the question of accountability, I find myself in some conflict. One part of me says love is freely given--a great gift that can be withdrawn. This position is me thinking into my partner's world. The other part of me that expresses my values says that love is built of trust and commitment. She could talk that way, but when she was hit by both bipolar mania and BPD splitting trust and commitment went away. Now that she's stable because of her meds, she ventures friendship with an indeterminate future. Viewed compassionately, I think that's her own shattered sense of self speaking. Viewed at the level of a peer (that is, I would like to be loved in a way that has some of the same energy I give to love), however, it seems like she is being much less than I think she is--that the BPD traits are expressing themselves in an uncharacteristically strong fashion.

I know when she is in her high functioning state she is a wonderful and strong and truthful person, so I do think my definition of love demands that I remain a friend for the time being.

[Warcleods]

My ex said the same thing.  She said that she needs time alone to figure herself out and she has said this for the past 5 months, during her episodes of doom and gloom.  One of the BPD traits she exhibits are her frequent life shifts based purely on her emotions at the time.  When she is "up," everything is perfect in her world and it's almost as if she completely forgets the internal hell she went through just moments earlier.  It's bizarre... .And, during times of stress she is so needy, unable to do anything, feels worthless, feels like a failure, hopeless, unable to be alone and everything else.  When she is "down," she needs to re-invent herself, start over, trash everything in her life and of course I was part of that equation.  She'd also binge eat at least 3 to 5 times a week.  I just couldn't deal with that anymore and me being her "friend," would have encompassed the same crap show.  At this point, she is either going to s!@# or get off the pot because I am no longer her crutch.  24 days and counting... .wow I am sad.

[Renard]

Warcleods,

My partner also struggles with ups and downs, a pattern which can spin all the way into true bipolar cycles. As I noted, she is now on meds, but the two--BPD and bipolar--seem joined together in her. She is capable of being incredibly high functioning, however.

In another post, I asked about eating and body image. My partner really struggles with the latter. She no longer binges, but she is so vigilant about food that it can wear on me.

[Warcleods]

A laundry list of things mine suffers from.

- Extreme mood swings - sometimes many in the course of a single day.
- Binge eating since late teens.  Obsession with weight and physical appearance.
- Promiscuous sex \ detachment from feeling emotions behind it.
- Shopping / Returning addiction
- Always needing to be busy and socializing. (not necessarily a bad thing but in combination with everything else, just avoidance of being alone).
- Needs validation from men. (she admitted this).
- Everything someone else's fault.
- Sexual abuse as a child (from her uncle but she doesn't remember the actual event).
- Mother that has reinforced that ALL men want is sex.

Sad... .

[Renard]

Warcleods,

I'm sorry to hear about everything you wrote. These relationships are difficult. I hope you find goodness in your resolve to maintain no contact. I also wish peace for you. I am still fighting nausea/queasiness today. I was so blindsided by what happened and she is truly a wonderful person, BPD be damned.