It isn't emotional incest because I didn't do it when you were a child.

[MrWtn1978]

Anyone hear this excuse?  I think its just a way for her to justify her behavior (she is a counselor, so understands how badly this can affect a child and wants to excuse her behavior - which she can't deny doing).

I haven't read anything about emotional incest that indicates it can start after childhood... .but in my case it did.  My mom was irritable towards my my whole childhood - once I was out of the house and in college, THEN she pulled me slowly but surely into that role.  When I read about it, I feel like I suffer from many of the things kids who were parentified feel.  Have never heard this angle addressed though.

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi MrWtn1978 

You pose an interesting question. I'm curious as to what your thoughts are. Do you feel that it is emotional enmeshement?  What do your inner kids say, the older teenager or young adult you? Are you uncomfortable with what is going on?

I think that listening to what we are saying, not in our heads only, but also in our body and soul can be an indicator of the deeper issues happening. To me the fact that you are even asking this (and I am really glad you are asking  ) says that you are looking for answers to some of the confusion that's taking place inside of you when your mom tries to defend her actions. The confusion a BPD creates is really hard.

What would you tell your best friend or another adult if they posed the same question to you? Sometimes it helps me to think of someone else rather than myself. Puts a different spin on it.
My thoughts are that you are still her child and she is still the parent, no matter the age. You are not young but the relationship is still parent with a child. I'm including a link here for you to read, plus you may want to check out the book which will appear in the header on our Coping & Healing page titled Silently Seduced.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/was-part-your-childhood-deprived-emotional-incest

I'm very sorry that your mom treats you this way.   My uBPDm had us kids all very much enmeshed with her. There are times when I grieve deeply the loss of my young childhood from the emotional enmeshment that took place, stealing so much of my youth. It clearly does leave scars. Even to this day I struggle with learning when it is okay to be emotionally connected with another person and when it is not. I have work to do to unlearn what I learned or was forced to learn in order to survive. You are brave to ask and to seek the answers! 

 
Wools

[HappyChappy]

Hi MrWtn1978

Sorry you had to deal with this. I guess once someone leaves the house, abandonment fears kick in and new tactics to enmesh you may have been triggered.  You are right it’s odd this kicked in late, but still possible. Wools link to emotional incest might help understand more.

It often helps to explore the parts that upset you the most, discuss them on this forum or with a Therapist. So what is it that upsets you the most about this behaviour ?

[Notwendy]

I've heard all kinds of excuses for different behaviors.

I understand that if we were able to get some kind of accountability- instead of an excuse- it would feel validating. However, I don't know if it is possible to get that from a disordered parent.

My BPD mother is elderly. I have rarely over the years heard her say she was accountable for her behaviors and if she did, it was minimal and brief. - minimizing them, offering some sort of blame/excuse that absolves her from responsibility- and even more frustrating- replying by blaming me for it.

I understand your need to validate this- yes it happened, yes it was wrong, yes what you say is true. But also repeatedly coming to them to validate this for me has resulted in frustration. I have been able to get validation/support- from this board, from counselors, books- that some of my mother's behavior is not appropriate. I think knowing that, we can proceed to gain clarity.

Kind of ironic that your mother is a counselor, but I think this would make it all the harder to get clarification from her. She would know all the theory words to explain it in such a way that she isn't responsible.

[MrWtn1978]

Woolspinner2000

Thanks for the links!  I did read Silently Seduced and found myself more in the boys to mom scenario.  They didn't mention too much about daughter/mother, so I am guessing it isn't as common.  My mom wants us all to be enmeshed with her and is devestated that my older sister and younger brother don't do it.  I was the golden child because I did.

It was total emotional enmeshment.  I definitely put her needs before my husbands.  Like if we were cuddling in bed and she called... .well she came first.  As a kid she definitely didn't do this, she was just demanding and controlling and I couldn't wait to be free of her.  HOWEVER, I do remember a time when I was less then 5, when I wouldn't leave her (she was sick with the flu or something) to go spend time with friends.  My dad was going to drop us off and come back to take care of her.  I don't know if I felt he wouldn't do a good job (he was emotionally absent from us kids 90% of the time) or if I felt she needed protection from him, or if I was afraid to be away from her.  Either way... .it was weird that I felt like I needed to be with her like that.  Other then that situation, I don't recall any other childhood memory where I felt dependent on her.  As a teen, I didn't either, I just wanted to be away from her, and I was... .in boarding high school.  So liberating.  My sister told me not to call home often because it was too expensive, but once I did - that is where she started being the best friend role - totally new for her.  Maybe that is when she discovered how useful I could be to her.  It was after I was married that she started to spill the family secrets, ask me whether or not she should divorce my dad, need my advise/approval before doing things, etc... .  It got really bad for about 5 years.

She defends herself because "It was mutual", we were "adult to adult", and I wasn't a "parentified child".  And many of these things are true.  HOWEVER, it does make me uncomfortable and I don't feel strong enough to deal with it as it happens, or at least I didn't up until 9 months ago when we had a confrontation that has yet to be resolved.  Now I don't really have to as we are not on speaking terms. 

I know it happened, it just seems like I am the only one who had it happen at such a late age.


HappyChappy
That is a good point, about me leaving the house and using this to pull me back in.  Also, she had life crisis that brought out more BPD tendencies about that time (my brother's drug addiction - he was 14, my dad's affairs, financial woes... .).  As these crisis have gotten worse over the years, her BPD stuff is more and more obvious to me.  She can still fool the rest of the world, but not close family.

Notwendy
You are right... .trying to get her to admit it or validate me is not gonna happen.  I confronted her years about about this, before I knew about BPD issues, and that is when I got the excuses.  At the time if felt like having your molester say that it wasn't inappropriate touch because you "liked it".  Gave me the creeps!  My relationship with her has been a bit of Stockholm's syndrome... .where you create an attachment to someone who is abusing you.  That is what makes this so confusing.  Once I see an issue and "get it", then I don't allow myself to go back there.  After my first confrontation to her about this, I was not strong enough to stop her mid-sentence when she would start sharing stuff like this, and I would just be so angry at myself for being so weak!  Now I am much stronger and hopefully could stop her in the moment, or at least talk to her about it later.  Having her upset at me for 9 months has honestly been a huge relief in many ways.

So thankful for my counselor and her seeing the BPD stuff and suggesting I read about it.  My understanding (from my mom) was of the BPD's outrageous behaviors, which she does not do, so I wouldn't never gone here without professional insight.  It definitely is a good fit with my mom's issues.  Also that she's helped me work through my issues so I can be a stronger person who won't fall back into that trap!

[isilme]

Ugh.  This area of abuse always makes me feel gross.

I feel that it may not be uncommon for the "incest" to be more prevalent as you are older, simply because any kind of restricting taboo that even a pwBPD applied to a child has been lifted.  You're an adult now, so they can talk to you about adult things, and expect adult levels of emotional fulfillment form you, even if they are inappropriate.

I WAS a parentified child, caretaker for my parents who made inappropriate comments and even watched soft-core porn with me in the room, and 'included' me in their ribald banter and conversations.  As a 10-year-old, I felt special, adult, about knowing about such things.  Mom liked to prance around naked, even with me home, and made jokes about Dad's body in front of me.  Now, I feel gross.  I've learned the phrase for this to be "covert sexual abuse" where touching is not part of the abuse. 

Then, as I got older, into my teens and early adulthood, mom started treating me as her BFF, with whom she could share her worst fears and insecurities about her relationship with my dad, and after the divorce and the end of our first stint of NC, about her lovers.  I was super enmeshed with her, as her caretaker since about age 7, she was MY responsibility, not the other way around.  I waffled about NC for a while in my 20s and early 30s, and had to go full, possibly forever, NC to stay sane and set a boundary around my life, my home, and my relationship.  The idea of breaking NC, even in  a limited fashion makes me scared. 

I lived with Dad after the divorce, because abusive as he is, he was higher functioning and was able to hide it better.  He definitely expected me fill the housewife/helpmeet role in my mom's absence.  I was his emotional crutch, his chore-house-maid, which was honestly there from a young age but really only super evident around age 15, until he found wife #3 and did not need me anymore.  He kicked me out and disowned me at 19, since he and the new wife did not want a reminder of my mom around.  While we lived alone, it was like he could not figure out his role in relation to me - equal adult?  Only for when he needed it.  Domineered subordinate?  Most of the time.  Getting him out of my head has taken a long time, and even though in reality he is like in his 70s now and I've not seen him for any length of time since I was 19, he is the boogey man, and the thought of even seeing him makes me panic.

So, emotional incest - expecting your child of any age to fill a role meant for a lover/spouse.  Covert sexual abuse - including a minor child in adult themed conversations and activities totally inappropriate for their age.  Yuck.

BPD is needy.  The needs change over time.  And if you have a pwBPD who is also a counselor of some sort, then they will rules-lawyer you into quibbling about whether your memories and reality is valid so they can avoid any shame of ever being responsible for wrong actions.  I've had a lot of work over the course of my adult life trying to figure out what is appropriate behavior and what is just weird. 

[MrWtn1978]

isilme

Thanks!  This is so spot on!  Especially about how she will argue until she has convinced me that my feelings are invalid.  I just had to play "Mommy" again with my mom.  Always having to soothe her hurt feelings.  My conversation with her over the last 10 months has been: "There were things you did when I was a child that were hurtful, now as an adult there are totally different things you've done to hurt me.  I have not brought it up because I am too afraid of hurting you, but I realize that was wrong and take full responsibility for dishonesty and the hurt that has caused."  What I get in return is:  "How could you lie to me all these years!  I guess I was a horrible parent!  You didn't talk about anything I did right?  I don't think I was THAT controlling of how you did things. I am so hurt and distrustful of you now!  If I was so bad, then how come none of my group of friends ever mentioned it to me?  I have 20+ friends who agree with how horrible you've treated us!  You are blackmailing us!"  Pages and pages of response... .the most recent letter was 12 pages (11pt. font single spaced), it was rebuttle of my last 3 letters, so maybe 2-3 pages were my writing that she had written in between the lines of in a different color.  Have Mercy!

She completely ignores my hurts, just turns the whole thing around to how me vocalizing my feelings has hurt her.  I am in an email cycle that will go on forever... .until she feels like I have grovelled enough over hurting her feelings.  So this week I told her I will not respond to anything else on the topic.  (I realize I will never get the full apology or comprehension from her I desire deep down, so I need to move on).  I also set boundaries that we won't discuss this anymore, and we will meet on neutral ground - not each other's homes - until there is some level of comfort reestablished - which may not happen.  I suspect she will freak out over this, but someone has to be the grown up here, so I guess it will be me.