Raising of grandchildren

[Depression = 72% of members]

My grandchildren are being raised by a BPD mother.  Their father passed away 8 years ago.  He was loving and kind and caring and was a teacher of handicapped children.  He knew her diagnosis of BPD from her own mother and double checked it with his psychiatrist.  The children are shut-ins, only out for school without their mother.  They have no friends, and are shunned by all of their neighbors.  The mother does not go out of the house much and when she does, she is extremely inappropriately dressed.  She is often, dirty, uncombed hair, unshaven legs, mis-matched clothing, no teeth in her mouth, (she has had two sets of dentures, and uses neither.)  She fights with everyone she knows. (Schools, doctors, neighbors and friends).  She demeans her oldest daughter (15 yr. old) in front of her friends all the time.  The eleven year old has been labeled by the school system as autistic only 1percent, which is not true, they caved in to her badgering. She is always wanting more and more done for him and, she brags about this. The youngest child she ignores as much as possible, she claims the child does not like her. She lays all of her own feeling upon the children.  Degradation for the oldest, domination over the middle child and unavailable to the youngest and neglectful.  This is tiny description of the situation.  We need help in knowing how to bring this before the proper authorities.  Please give advice, if possible.  The children are being psychologically scarred.

[loochasag]

My grandchildren are being raised by a BPD mother.  Their father passed away 8 years ago.  He was loving and kind and caring and was a teacher of handicapped children.  He knew her diagnosis of BPD from her own mother and double checked it with his psychiatrist.  The children are shut-ins, only out for school without their mother.  They have no friends, and are shunned by all of their neighbors.  The mother does not go out of the house much and when she does, she is extremely inappropriately dressed.  She is often, dirty, uncombed hair, unshaven legs, mis-matched clothing, no teeth in her mouth, (she has had two sets of dentures, and uses neither.)  She fights with everyone she knows. (Schools, doctors, neighbors and friends).  She demeans her oldest daughter (15 yr. old) in front of her friends all the time.  The eleven year old has been labeled by the school system as autistic only 1percent, which is not true, they caved in to her badgering. She is always wanting more and more done for him and, she brags about this. The youngest child she ignores as much as possible, she claims the child does not like her. She lays all of her own feeling upon the children.  Degradation for the oldest, domination over the middle child and unavailable to the youngest and neglectful.  This is tiny description of the situation.  We need help in knowing how to bring this before the proper authorities.  Please give advice, if possible.  The children are being psychologically scarred.

[Methuen]

Do you get visits with the children?

[Pook075]

Another question- are you in the US or overseas?  There are different processes for each US state and you'll have to follow them.  Generally that starts with a call to protective services to report children being neglected or in danger.  Then there's a "surprise visit" to inspect the living conditions.

Some states have anonymous reporting, others will say where the report came from.  So you'll want to do a little research on your area's child protective services about what they look for before hopping into this blindly.

[Notwendy]

I am sorry for your loss. The children's father sounds like he was a wonderful person.

If the mother is considered unfit by authorities- who will have custody of them? Are you willing to be their guardian and have them live with you?

This is understandably difficult for you to see your grandchildren in this situation. Most people outside the family didn't have a clue what went on in our house growing up with BPD mother. My father's family did have a sense but I don't think anyone knew completely. They would offer to have us spend time with them on school breaks. I think this made a big difference for us. So while, we kids would not have come to the attention of authorities- being able to spend time with stable relatives helped.

In the US, it seems that while Child Protective Services (CPS) will investigate all claims, they may not obtain legal proof of abuse/neglect. Still- making the call may not be futile if they don't. With the children's mother's behavior- I wonder if other people have called already. If CPS gets more than one call- it may support their case. Calls are anonymous. I agree with Pook though- to get informed before you do anything- so you are informed of what to do and the procedures in your location.

Even if it isn't possible to remove the children from the home, you can still make a difference for them if you are able to visit and/or have them visit you.

[LonelyOnly77]

NotWendy's advice is very good, so I don't have much to add, other than to never go into calling Child Protective Services in the U.S. lightly. The child welfare system here is a mess, so unless there are relatives who can step in and make sure the kids stay together and are in a healthy environment, they could end up separated, bouncing from varying foster homes with little support, and possibly be subject to other kinds of neglect and/or abuse.

But if you or another relative is capable of caring for them and keeping them together, it's definitely worth it if it gets them out of an abusive environment.

[Methuen]

My concern with "reporting" this to child protective services, is that if she decides it was you that reported her, and somehow manages to keep custody of the children for one reason or another, she could retaliate by telling the children all kinds of lies about you, and deny you the opportunity to see them again.

I have seen many threads to that end on this forum over my time here.  Grandparents (or aunts/uncles) not being allowed to see the children. 

Do what you know is in the best interests of the children, and whatever happens, you can know that you did your best for the right reasons.

[Notwendy]

I have found that people who don't criticize my BPD mother and who (at least act like) they admire her and say complimentary things to her seem to have the best rapport with her. She does perceieve people as being "on her side" or "not her side".

She did not like my father's family. It was mutual but they didn't say anything. The only time his family said anything to me about how they actually felt- was after my father passed away. By this time, I was an adult and independent.

Nobody would have called CPS about us because we did have our needs met and better. We didn't have people visit often - it was too chaotic at home. BPD mother's behavior was a family secret. My father's family somehow knew- maybe he said something or they just caught on but they couldn't do anything other than be there for us. Although my parents did socialize some, BPD mother tends to be reclusive too, perhaps it's due to difficulty with relationships.


Methuen has a point about CPS- for them to intervene- they need evidence of abuse/neglect that is tangible and to a certain extent. If the kids come to the attention of a teacher, or doctor- they are mandatory reporters. But being unkempt - mother or child- or reclusive isn't enough evidence for CPS and it is hard to prove emotional or verbal abuse. However, if there is serious and tangible abuse- the kids are being beaten or not fed- one needs to consider the risk to the children vs the risk to being cut off from them. It seems that in this case, you could be more effective by staying on BPD mother's good side.

With empathy for you- and the mother. Both of you have had a huge loss. If your son was a supportive husband, your DIL lost a significant support for her. My father was an emotional caretaker for my mother and a financial support. He is the one who kept the family functional. It's a challenge to be a single mother and it may be that your DIL is at her limit of coping. However, if she's like my BPD mother, one would not dare to say anything to her about it.  Her own self image isn't able to handle anything that might be critical.

So it seemed, my father's family wisely didn't say anything. I know from my mother's family that they didn't have any idea about what was going on in our family.

I don't know under what assumption they had us spend time with them but BPD mother would not have been able to cope as well during school breaks with kids home all day and so they had us visit during these times. The approach that would have worked with her was so that she could have a break and get some well deserved time to herself. If you are willing to have the kids with you for some time, perhaps this approach will work. One benefit of being with them was being away from the drama.

If you can't keep them overnight, it might be outings- take them to the park, a movie, a museum. Some fun one on one time with grandma.

Interestingly- sometimes we misbehaved - not bad stuff, just mischief, with my father's family. My cousins recall doing silly things when with my father's mother and she'd just laugh and not get angry. BPD mother would have gotten angry. So even knowing that it's safe to act out a bit with grandma is a different experience. Of course, have boundaries with unacceptable behavior but if a child feels secure, they may also feel secure enough to not be "walking on eggshells" with you.

[CC43]

Hi there,

The previous posters have some excellent advice and insights.  I thought I'd add my two cents on Child Protective Services.  In my experience, even if CPS is called, it is very hard to prove abuse without evidence.  When being questioned or during a home visit, people with BPD and/or NPD can often "pull themselves together" enough to convince an interviewer that nothing is untoward.  Does the BPD mother of your grandchildren have a tendency to blame others for all her problems?  This tendency will likely continue with CPS; she might create a convincing story about how something or somebody else is to blame for a mess, or for a lack of food, or for an altercation.

As for mandatory reporters, I think they aren't necessarily reliable.  I know of situations of children reporting abuse and/or neglect to a teacher or counselor, and they decided not to report.  Maybe they thought the parent manipulated the child into telling a story, or maybe they thought the child was lying (perhaps because he or she seems so functional day-to-day), or maybe they thought the abuse wasn't significant enough.  Maybe they didn't want the extra hassle or paperwork.  It seems to me that the abuse has to be severe and plausible enough to convince a mandatory reporter to report.  Skipping meals, bugs/vermin in the house, being called names, swearing or shouting, slamming doors, throwing things, clogged baths and toilets, drinking alcohol, unsecured weapons in the house, lacking clean clothes or bedding, etc. could indicate a pattern of abuse, but it might not be enough, because any of those things could happen in a normal household from time to time and wouldn't be abuse.  It's hard for a child to communicate consistency, severity and intent behind the situation.  Besides, most children dearly love their parent and don't want to disparage them.  They might also fear retribution if the parent found out the child did anything behind their back.  They might not even know they are being abused, because what happens in their home is all they know.  So in my experience the bar is pretty high to get any action from CPS, and the outcome might not be the desired one.  It seems the State is inclined to keep children with their parents unless the situation is absolutely dire.  Maybe they will recommend a parenting class, for example.  For someone with BPD, a parenting class is unlikely to help much in my opinion, because it doesn't address the main issues behind BPD.

I really like the idea of offering to take the children so that their mom gets a break.  I do this as often as I can with my nieces and nephews, even though my siblings don't have personality disorders.  One of my siblings is a single parent, and she gets little time to herself.  So if I take her kids, even for a couple of hours, she can rest and/or tackle tasks uninterrupted.  And the kids get a little time with their aunt, a break from the routine.  They love having a new audience and doing novel activities.  I think Notwendy hit on a way to make it acceptable to the BPD mom--make the visits about her, easing her day and giving her time to herself that she deserves.  If the kids seem to have fun without her, she might be jealous or resentful of you.  And if you make the visits about you ("We need to see the grandkids / They are our grandkids / We hardly ever see them"), then she could see that as an opportunity to control or punish you. 

[Notwendy]

Children will love and cling to a parent- even an abusive one. It's a survival instinct. It's also the only "normal" they know.

I have one experience with someone calling CPS with concern for children in a family we know. The kids were well connected, had friends in the community and so there was concern about them and their father who was an alcoholic. Someone called CPS but they didn't find anything to pursue. I didn't ever hear the kids say anything about their situation and they wouldn't. This was their father and they didn't want to threaten their family unit.

It would be natural for you to have negative feelings about your DIL. My father's family didn't like my mother but I didn't know that. I think it was wise of them to not say anything around us as kids. I knew my mother didn't like them as she did express her feelings. I assumed that after my father passed away, they'd not have anything to do with each other.

Some time later, my father's family had a reunion and didn't include my mother. She was furious that she wasn't invited. I asked her "why- I thought you didn't like them" and her reply was that they should have included her because she was my father's wife. I found this disconnect between their relationship and her wish to be included in their family odd- but I understand it better now. Her feelings are all over the place and not always rational or connected to what she wants. She may say something in the moment and not mean it later.

Even after this, she had her own family get together and invited them. Most of them didn't come.

I'm sharing this because I hope that it will help you to not take your DIL's statements personally. What she says one day, she may not feel the next. I know there is no way my mother could handle raising kids. She can't even manage taking care of herself on her own. But to admit this would be too much of an attack on her already poor self image. It's not possible to approach her from the position of "you can't handle this". She will oppose it. She needs to appear as if she is a competent person. She also has a narcisistic streak and so the approach of appealing to her ego works better. My best guess as to the reason for your DIL and her children's situation is that she herself is struggling emotionally. Her lack of self care makes me wonder if she is depressed.

You can't save her or rescue her either. You don't want to step in to that. That's an impossible task. You have to have boundaries with her. However, she is the gatekeeper to access to the children. How to help them without threatening their mother's self image is a challenge. You also need to have boundaries on your own budget and time. But don't underestimate the impact of a fun outing with the kids. It may seem like a small thing to you but it's in these things that bonds are formed and having a stable adult who loves them can do some good for them, even if you feel it's limited. It may be the best you can do in this situation.

[js friend]

My concern with "reporting" this to child protective services, is that if she decides it was you that reported her, and somehow manages to keep custody of the children for one reason or another, she could retaliate by telling the children all kinds of lies about you, and deny you the opportunity to see them again.

I have seen many threads to that end on this forum over my time here.  Grandparents (or aunts/uncles) not being allowed to see the children. 

Do what you know is in the best interests of the children, and whatever happens, you can know that you did your best for the right reasons.

This is exactly what has happened to me. I have now had no contact with my beautiful grand children for the past 3 years. Would I do it again?....YES I WOULD. I go to bed every night knowing that I really did my best to protect them no matter what my udd says or thinks.

[Notwendy]

I think we have to follow our own concience. If I could do something different- I think it would have helped to know the likely consequences of doing so, but I don't regret that I expressed concern about my BPD mother to my father's care providers when he was ill. I also called adult protective services but what is different from child services is that my father was an adult and he would have had to agree to the concerns or they would not be able to do anything. He would not have agreed to that.

My BPD mother sees people as being "on her side" or not her side. Maintaining that she has no issues was a family rule. By exposing that- I went against it.

Karpman triangle dynamics are also a part of my family dynamics. My father's medical care providers assumed he was being cared for by my mother and this was a positive image for her. Even her family members were telling me what a wonderful job she was doing taking care of my father. What was actually happening was a different situation.

It's disordered dynamics to step in and do too much rescuing of adults, (unless they are truly in danger) but children, and also I think elderly people if they can't care for themselves need to be protected. I wasn't aware of these dynamics at the time. My father could have spoken up about it but he didn't and I was afraid for him but for my parents this was overstepping their wishes.

I also had boundaries for my own children with BPD mother.

BPD mother got angry at me and my father stepped in as her "rescuer" and this attempt resulted in cost to my relationship with him.

Prior to this, I didn't believe this kind of thing could happen but I believe it now. Still, we have to follow our conscience. If you believe that the children are in danger- and that you need to step in - it is possible the pwBPD could cut your contact with them. The alternative is not to call but if your conscience is at you to do it- then that isn't a good thing either. It is more like this decision is made between two less than ideal situations- weighing the pros and cons of each and seeing what is the better one and also the likelyhood that CPS would be able to intervene at all.

[livednlearned]

I'm so sorry you have to bear witness to this. Watching kids be abused by a parent is the hardest thing I've witnessed and it never gets easy hearing others go through this.

What's your relationship with the mom like? With the kids?

Do you live nearby?

Have you communicated any of your concerns to the school or other authorities?

Apologies for peppering you with questions, just trying to get a sense of how the puzzle pieces fit together.

The eleven year old has been labeled by the school system as autistic only 1percent, which is not true, they caved in to her badgering.

Sometimes two seemingly opposite things can simultaneously be true. She may have badgered the school, and the child may be autistic.

Some of what you describe sounds like someone who might be autistic herself, with BPD traits. Autism is highly genetic.

Do you think that might be a possibility?

There is a movement in the autistic community, especially for women, to look for ASD when there's a BPD dx.

ASD without support can create a capacity issue that makes some of the things you describe more likely, such as poor hygiene and an aversion to social situations.

[loochasag]

I would like to thank everyone for their responses.  It was kind of what I knew or thought about myself.  I need to get better at answering individuals myself.  Right now I still do not how to.

[kells76]

I would like to thank everyone for their responses.  It was kind of what I knew or thought about myself.  I need to get better at answering individuals myself.  Right now I still do not how to.

Hi loochasag 

It's perfectly fine to respond to individuals all in one post, or to respond to one individual in one post, then make a new post for a different response.

Option 1 could look like writing, all in one post, something like:

Username 1: thank you for your response...

Username 2: I appreciated what you had to say...

Username 3: That gave me a lot to think about... etc

Feel free to start that way, if that's most convenient. We will definitely be able to track with what you're saying! Reach out any time if you have more questions.