I´m desperate, I feel guilty and need to vent

[NamelessMan]

Hi, this is going to be a long post, so I´m sorry in advance. I´m going through a breakup and I suspect that my ex has BPD traits although she´s not diagnosed. I stumbled upon all this stuff trying to find some answers and everything started to make more sense. Still, I´m left in emotional pain and extreme guilt, but at the same time I have the feeling that I couldn´t have done anything different to avoid the outcome. I´ll explain what happened from the beginning. I´d be really really grateful if you could tell me your thoughts and whether or not what I´m about to tell sounds familiar to you.

We started dating this past August. This was my first relationship and I´d never felt a connection like this with anyone else before. I was instantly idealized. She said things like "I´ve never felt like this before with anyone else" (this is her 5th relationship), "you´re perfect", "I want to be with you forever", "you´re an unalterable man". I was happy, I felt like my life had more meaning and i genuinely loved her. In late October I went through a rough couple of days due to schoolwork. It takes a toll on me, and so when she asked me I told her how i felt. Then she started to say that she was feeling anxious and nervous. That she didn´t feel ok and seeing me bad was affecting her. The next day she said that she had to leave me, because the relationship was too much, that me being bad was going to impact her in her studies and she couldn´t allow for it. She also said that she felt she wasn´t going to be able the girlfriend that she wanted to be. I tried to talk to her because non of that was true, it was all made up in her mind. I remember at that point she blamed me of not listening to her, being an asshole and selfish because I didn´t see she couldn´t carry on . It´s ironic that she blames me of being selfish when SHE is the one being selfish by breaking up with me because she has to think on herself. She broke up with me.

One month and a half later...

She texted me and said if we could talk. A few days back we were together again. She said she was deeply sorry for what she did to me and thought that I was going to hate her forever. She promised me that it would never happened again. I loved her so I forgave her. This was December.

Everything went fine until February, although there were some things that started to indicate something rough was going on. For example, one night we were on the phone and I had the TV playing in the background. When I hunged up she texted me "there was a voice". I said that it was the TV. She started to feel bad and didn´t believe me. She genuinely thought I was with someone else. The next day she was still sad and I felt bad about myself.

In Febraury one day she asked me about my previous "experiences". This was my first relationship so I told her that, and I also mentioned some other girl I met in the past, eventhough I had nothing with them or even real intentions. I tried to be honest. One girl stood out to her. When my dog died two years ago I kept her ashes and I looked for someone who could make a portrait of her to put it next to the ashes. I found a girl who lived in my same city and I asked her to make the portrait. I met her the day she gave it to me and we had a drink. There was nothing else, I haven´t seen her again ever since. Well, the next day my ex started to ask me for this girl. That why did I mention her, that she was 100% sure that I wanted to PLEASE READ her. She said things like "I´m sorry for not being as slim as her and having more breasts!!", "I don´t care what you do, go and PLEASE READ her now!!". I tried to explain to her what happened but it didn´t work, at all. She said that I was talking in circles and lying. She had already made up her mind that I was attracted to that girl because apparently I was "describing her" all the time. Because in August i once said that fringes are ok and I like curly hair (my ex´s hair is curly). She even said to me "I´m not special for you. You are with me because you don´t want to be alone and I´m the first one that was worked for you". I was desperate as you might imagine. That episode went on for like 5 days. In all those arguments I was the one who had to end up apologizing for doing nothing. She always threatened me with not forgiving me, with me being an asshole that treated her like PLEASE READ. One night she called me crying and yelling saying that why she wasn´t enough for me. I tried to calm her down but she kept blaming me for how she felt. She didn´t let me talk so I got anxious and hunged up. She later called me furious saying that I had let her down when she was needed and all she wanted was me to support her (that´s what I was trying to do). Funny how she can say that when she broke up with me when I told her that I was having a rough time. Anyway, she then said  that she wasn´t going to forgive me for this, that she didn´t want a boyfriend that "abandones" her when she feels bad. I said that it wasn´t fair, that I was able to forgive her when she left me in the past eventhough it deeply hurt me. Then she started crying. The next day we talked and it looked like everything could go back to normal, although she first said that after me saying that she didn´t know if that could happen, after a long conversation where I was broken and emotionally drained, she said "I promise to never do this again, I´ll always be there for you". Later on she brought it up again saying that she felt threatened by me when I said that I forgave her, but i´ll let that for another post.

There´s a lot more but i don´t want it to be too long. I´ll make another post. From that moment I started to walk on eggshells on a regular basis, feeling anxious and questioning my own self and reality. Was it that bad saying that I forgave her when she told me she was never going to forgive me for hunging up the phone once? She hunged up to me like 6 times before that! Those are questions that are still rumbling in my head to this day. I´d be grateful If you could give me your thoughts so far, because I feel guilty.

[once removed]

honestly?

it sounds like you were seeing someone with deep insecurities that make it very challenging to be in a relationship with her.

bpdish stuff for sure, though its hard to say to what extent, vs say, emotional immaturity, or both. a lot of things both look like bpd, and go hand in hand with it, like an insecure attachment style.

I feel guilty.

what do you feel guilty for?

[NamelessMan]

honestly?

it sounds like you were seeing someone with deep insecurities that make it very challenging to be in a relationship with her.

bpdish stuff for sure, though its hard to say to what extent, vs say, emotional immaturity, or both. a lot of things both look like bpd, and go hand in hand with it, like an insecure attachment style.

what do you feel guilty for?

The reason I suspect it could be BPD is because there have been more episodes ever since. I want to explain it in another post as this was getting too long.

I feel guilty for saying that I forgave her when she said that she wasn´t going to forgive me. She said that hurt her and since i said that she didn´t see me the same. That´s when the devaluation started. A part of me believes that I didn´t manage the situation properly and the outcome could´ve been different.

[Pook075]

[quote author=NamelessMan link=topic=3060316.msg13227585#msg13227585 She also said that she felt she wasn´t going to be able the girlfriend that she wanted to be. I tried to talk to her because non of that was true, it was all made up in her mind. I remember at that point she blamed me of not listening to her, being an asshole and selfish because I didn´t see she couldn´t carry on .
[/quote]

Hello and welcome to the family!  I'm so sorry you're going through this and it does have a BPD feel to it.  While nobody can help with a diagnosis, the advice for this type of push/pull relationship works regardless.

In your first real argument, you said that you were struggling with school stuff.  Yet in her mind, she heard it as, "He's struggling with school because of me, I'm the problem here and I'm ruining all of this." 

Maybe there was a shred of truth to that, maybe not, but that's how a BPD person might think in a moment where they feel rejected or insecure.  They take their own internal feelings and turn it into something someone else must be thinking.  It's a highly self-destructive trait.

Once she reached out to you, and in future arguments about the portrait artist, all she wanted to hear was, "I love you and I'm choosing you."

I know that sounds bizarre because that's not what she was saying.  But emotionally, she was screaming that and the words coming out of her mouth just didn't align because she was unstable in those moments.  Her feelings were everywhere and coming out as blame.

It's so natural to defend unfair blame.  But in your case, in this relationship, you have to read between the lines and see what's really going on with your girlfriend- she's her own worst enemy due to jealousy and insecurity.

How do you feel about that?  Does it make sense at all?  To me, it's not something you should feel guilty about because you didn't have any idea what was actually going on.

[NamelessMan]

[quote author=NamelessMan link=topic=3060316.msg13227585#msg13227585 She also said that she felt she wasn´t going to be able the girlfriend that she wanted to be. I tried to talk to her because non of that was true, it was all made up in her mind. I remember at that point she blamed me of not listening to her, being an asshole and selfish because I didn´t see she couldn´t carry on .


Hello and welcome to the family!  I'm so sorry you're going through this and it does have a BPD feel to it.  While nobody can help with a diagnosis, the advice for this type of push/pull relationship works regardless.

In your first real argument, you said that you were struggling with school stuff.  Yet in her mind, she heard it as, "He's struggling with school because of me, I'm the problem here and I'm ruining all of this." 

Maybe there was a shred of truth to that, maybe not, but that's how a BPD person might think in a moment where they feel rejected or insecure.  They take their own internal feelings and turn it into something someone else must be thinking.  It's a highly self-destructive trait.

Once she reached out to you, and in future arguments about the portrait artist, all she wanted to hear was, "I love you and I'm choosing you."

I know that sounds bizarre because that's not what she was saying.  But emotionally, she was screaming that and the words coming out of her mouth just didn't align because she was unstable in those moments.  Her feelings were everywhere and coming out as blame.

It's so natural to defend unfair blame.  But in your case, in this relationship, you have to read between the lines and see what's really going on with your girlfriend- she's her own worst enemy due to jealousy and insecurity.

How do you feel about that?  Does it make sense at all?  To me, it's not something you should feel guilty about because you didn't have any idea what was actually going on.

Thank you for your answer, I really appreciate it.  I had those rough days because of burnout and it takes a toll on me when it hits. I know I have a problem with that but I think it´s not bad if you tell your partner how you feel.

Regarding the argument about the portrait lady. I did tell her over and over  that I did love her more than anything in my life (because that´s how I genuinely felt), that I didn´t like/feel attracted to anyone else. That I didn´t think about anyone else but her, that there was no one else in my life. Not just once, I constantly repeated those words. Sometimes even by text. But she didn´t listen, she was in crisis. I also remember that in those arguments she always reached a point where her mood changed. A point of realization of what she was doing followed by apologies, tears and more unnecessary drama completely made up in her twisted mind.  In one of those she asked me "do you think that I´ve gone too far", I said "yes" and she got mad at me again. Blaming me, saying that I mistreated her, that she wasn´t going to forgive me for saying that etc. When someone that has dumped you in the past like that says "I´m not going to forgive you" you get anxious, nervous and start to feel fear (at least that happened to me when I heard those words for doing nothing).

[HoratioX]

I think a lot of people who have been in relationships with someone with BPD (or CPTSD, anxiety, etc.) have had similar experiences -- being falsely accused, misunderstanding what seems an obvious situation, break ups and explosions of emotions, and so forth.

I do think it's important to make sure the person has been professionally diagnosed. But -- and I think this is also common -- even if they are, there is no guarantee that diagnosis is correct or the only one. The reason I write "BPD (or CPTSD, anxiety, etc.) is because my ex at various times was diagnosed with one or more of these issues by different therapists. Getting a bead on what was going on was tough because diagnosis could change with who she was getting her therapy from. And that also depends on whether what she shared with me was authentic.

Something I've heard is some therapists are reluctant to diagnose a patient with BPD, sometimes because of the stigma involved and sometimes because even within the professional community, there is disagreement over what BPD is and whether it should be diagnosed (despite criteria in the DSM-5). Apparently some therapists also do not want to take on patients with BPD because it is so difficult to treat and because the track record of success is not very good.

All that said, the mercurial nature of what you describe certainly lines up with what I and others have experienced with someone who has been diagnosed with BPD.

Something you're lighting upon is the notion that someone with BPD (etc.) may easily misinterpret innocent events, form opinions on the "truth" of an experience based not on facts but emotions, and react emotionally in ways out of proportion to the situation. If this is the case, you have no reason to feel guilty.

What you do want to do now is tread lightly and carefully. If you are dealing with someone with a distorted sense of reality, you can get blamed for things you did not do. Be careful what you say and do. If you communicate, it's not a bad idea to do so in writing -- through texts or email, for instance -- so you have a record. I'm not trying to overstate the situation, but if this person repeatedly shows a pattern of  BPD-like behavior -- whether they have BPD or not -- it is wise to protect yourself against future problems by taking a few precautions that hopefully turn out to be unnecessary.

[NamelessMan]

I think a lot of people who have been in relationships with someone with BPD (or CPTSD, anxiety, etc.) have had similar experiences -- being falsely accused, misunderstanding what seems an obvious situation, break ups and explosions of emotions, and so forth.

I do think it's important to make sure the person has been professionally diagnosed. But -- and I think this is also common -- even if they are, there is no guarantee that diagnosis is correct or the only one. The reason I write "BPD (or CPTSD, anxiety, etc.) is because my ex at various times was diagnosed with one or more of these issues by different therapists. Getting a bead on what was going on was tough because diagnosis could change with who she was getting her therapy from. And that also depends on whether what she shared with me was authentic.

Something I've heard is some therapists are reluctant to diagnose a patient with BPD, sometimes because of the stigma involved and sometimes because even within the professional community, there is disagreement over what BPD is and whether it should be diagnosed (despite criteria in the DSM-5). Apparently some therapists also do not want to take on patients with BPD because it is so difficult to treat and because the track record of success is not very good.

All that said, the mercurial nature of what you describe certainly lines up with what I and others have experienced with someone who has been diagnosed with BPD.

Something you're lighting upon is the notion that someone with BPD (etc.) may easily misinterpret innocent events, form opinions on the "truth" of an experience based not on facts but emotions, and react emotionally in ways out of proportion to the situation. If this is the case, you have no reason to feel guilty.

What you do want to do now is tread lightly and carefully. If you are dealing with someone with a distorted sense of reality, you can get blamed for things you did not do. Be careful what you say and do. If you communicate, it's not a bad idea to do so in writing -- through texts or email, for instance -- so you have a record. I'm not trying to overstate the situation, but if this person repeatedly shows a pattern of  BPD-like behavior -- whether they have BPD or not -- it is wise to protect yourself against future problems by taking a few precautions that hopefully turn out to be unnecessary.

Thank you for your answer. I feel a bit of relief knowing that I´m not alone and that behaviour is out of proportion. All those are things that I´ve been questioning myself, and still do. At the same time, I can´t stop thinking about what happened, feeling guilty for the things I said and did, and doubting about myself.  Then I go back to thinking if that behaviour is justified on her side based upon my actions.
She refuses to go to therapy. I´ll explain more in another post because there were more episodes leading to the breakup. There have also been more episodes post-breakup.

[HoratioX]

If you feel guilty, it means you have a conscience; if you have a conscience, it means you can make amends. Learn from the experience so you can do better by your conscience. That is how you will heal.

Life doesn't come with an instruction manual. I wish it did. I especially wish it did when it comes to working with someone with BPD (etc.). Something that gets lost these days is the trauma that person can cause another. You think you're working with someone with a healthy mental and emotional state, but you're not. That means a lot of things you do -- things that would work with a healthy person -- do not. That can be disorienting, at best, and really push your buttons. Your own emotional responses -- even negative ones -- can be valid because they are authentic.

Now, having said that, valid responses don't necessarily mean appropriate ones. But that you can -- and should -- work on. Responding with anger is not necessarily wrong, but being hurtful or violent is. So, if you feel you did anything like that, learn from it. Work on not doing so in the future.

But -- and you might discuss this with a therapist, too -- don't just assume guilt for things that may not be your fault or responsibility. In other words, don't simply be chivalrous or wish to "rescue" the other person because you see them as a victim, because you feel sorry for them. If you really did something wrong, then work to be a better person in the future. Don't confuse that with responsibility for anything that you are not responsible for. It takes two to tango, as they say, and if you have been manipulated, disoriented, or had your buttons pushed by someone else, whether intentional or not, whether they are mentally ill or not, you're a victim, too.

Lastly, we live in a very strange time in human history. There is great pressure to believe an accusation is the same thing as proof and anyone who claims victimhood is by definition authentic. Yet, we know that's not always true. When you're dealing with someone with BPD (etc.), you can find yourself in a perilous situation. They can make accusations that absolutely not true -- and yet they might truly believe they are. Don't let your feelings of guilt put you in a position of accepting responsibility for anything you did not do nor accepting more responsibility than is true. Be kind and empathetic but also be true and strong. You owe it to yourself as much as to her.

[NamelessMan]

If you feel guilty, it means you have a conscience; if you have a conscience, it means you can make amends. Learn from the experience so you can do better by your conscience. That is how you will heal.

Life doesn't come with an instruction manual. I wish it did. I especially wish it did when it comes to working with someone with BPD (etc.). Something that gets lost these days is the trauma that person can cause another. You think you're working with someone with a healthy mental and emotional state, but you're not. That means a lot of things you do -- things that would work with a healthy person -- do not. That can be disorienting, at best, and really push your buttons. Your own emotional responses -- even negative ones -- can be valid because they are authentic.

Now, having said that, valid responses don't necessarily mean appropriate ones. But that you can -- and should -- work on. Responding with anger is not necessarily wrong, but being hurtful or violent is. So, if you feel you did anything like that, learn from it. Work on not doing so in the future.

But -- and you might discuss this with a therapist, too -- don't just assume guilt for things that may not be your fault or responsibility. In other words, don't simply be chivalrous or wish to "rescue" the other person because you see them as a victim, because you feel sorry for them. If you really did something wrong, then work to be a better person in the future. Don't confuse that with responsibility for anything that you are not responsible for. It takes two to tango, as they say, and if you have been manipulated, disoriented, or had your buttons pushed by someone else, whether intentional or not, whether they are mentally ill or not, you're a victim, too.

Lastly, we live in a very strange time in human history. There is great pressure to believe an accusation is the same thing as proof and anyone who claims victimhood is by definition authentic. Yet, we know that's not always true. When you're dealing with someone with BPD (etc.), you can find yourself in a perilous situation. They can make accusations that absolutely not true -- and yet they might truly believe they are. Don't let your feelings of guilt put you in a position of accepting responsibility for anything you did not do nor accepting more responsibility than is true. Be kind and empathetic but also be true and strong. You owe it to yourself as much as to her.

All I did up to this point was what I've said. I've even felt guilt for mentioning the girl who made my dog's portrait, thinking that if I hadn't none of that would have happened. That was what lead up to me saying that I forgave her when she left and so I didn't see that fair. Is that something that bad? I feel terrible.

[Under The Bridge]

I've even felt guilt for mentioning the girl who made my dog's portrait, thinking that if I hadn't none of that would have happened.

You have to try and get out of the mindset that you caused it, hard though that can be. Your talk concerning the girl who painted the portrait was totally innocent and it's not your fault that a BPD sufferer can't see it as such and jumps on it as an excuse to put you down. If it hadn't been that it would have been something else set her off so in that sense everything we say can be twisted to make us the villain.

It's important to be able to say 'I definitely did not do anything deliberate to provoke her' and to keep that dignity, rather than be automatically thinking you caused it. If a BPD even suspects we're doubting ourselves they'll leap on it and make us even more the bad guy.

During my own experiences, I was always reminded of the old US tv show 'Whose Line Is It Anyway?' one part being where comedians are given a line or subject and have to instantly create a routine around it. Some of it was very BPD-like as they twisted and turned the subject around into their own little fantasy story.

[NamelessMan]

You have to try and get out of the mindset that you caused it, hard though that can be. Your talk concerning the girl who painted the portrait was totally innocent and it's not your fault that a BPD sufferer can't see it as such and jumps on it as an excuse to put you down. If it hadn't been that it would have been something else set her off so in that sense everything we say can be twisted to make us the villain.

It's important to be able to say 'I definitely did not do anything deliberate to provoke her' and to keep that dignity, rather than be automatically thinking you caused it. If a BPD even suspects we're doubting ourselves they'll leap on it and make us even more the bad guy.

During my own experiences, I was always reminded of the old US tv show 'Whose Line Is It Anyway?' one part being where comedians are given a line or subject and have to instantly create a routine around it. Some of it was very BPD-like as they twisted and turned the subject around into their own little fantasy story.

How much BPD does my case sound to you? Like I said, I don´t know if she is BPD as she´s undiagnosed and blatantly refuses to go to therapy. She says "she doesn´t need anyone to teach her how one (me) should love her". I understand what you mean. The reason why I feel guilty is because me saying that lead to all that "argument" (I quote it because I didn´t argue, I just tried to explain what happened, that is, nothing) where I ended up saying that I didn´t think it was fair that she wouldn´t forgive me anymore when I was able to forgive her in the past. That´s when the devaluation started as she felt "threatened" by me and "didn´t think that I could be like that". She says that I was being selfish saying that when she was feeling bad, that I couldn´t see her feeling that bad. I feel terrible to be honest.  Does it make any sense?

Also, the portrait incident wasn´t the first of such episodes. There were more, the last one being three weeks ago (that is, when we are broken up) when she called me asking "I wanted to know why I´m not enough for you". She´s made up her mind that I feel attracted to another girl, one that I´ve never talked to in my life. I´ll explain the details in another post.

[Pook075]

How much BPD does my case sound to you?

There's some elements there that certainly sound like BPD- the self-esteem issues, the intense emotions and mood swings, plus the fear of abandonment.

It may feel super important right now to give this a label, but it's not really helpful in the grand scheme of things.  What actually matters is your response and how you're handling things from your end moving forward.

The reason why I feel guilty is because me saying that lead to all that "argument" (I quote it because I didn´t argue, I just tried to explain what happened, that is, nothing) where I ended up saying that I didn´t think it was fair that she wouldn´t forgive me anymore when I was able to forgive her in the past. That´s when the devaluation started as she felt "threatened" by me and "didn´t think that I could be like that". She says that I was being selfish saying that when she was feeling bad, that I couldn´t see her feeling that bad. I feel terrible to be honest.  Does it make any sense?

Re-read what you wrote above, and try to make sense of the logic behind it.  She did something, you forgave her, she accuses you of doing the same thing, you didn't do it, she won't forgive you.  Then it's your fault for being selfish because she was feeling bad over the whole thing.

Logically, it makes zero sense...you can't put the pieces of the puzzle together.

But emotionally, it makes total sense.  The accusation was her fractured self esteem wanting to be pampered and praised.  However, you didn't do that...you defended yourself instead.  And that made her second guess the relationship.  Not because of what you did/didn't do, but what she expected to happen versus what actually happened.

The problem here was her expectations due to disordered thinking.  That's the part you're missing logically...because it was flawed logic in the first place.  She wasn't thinking straight yet insisted that 1+1= 17.2734.

In other words, this wasn't your fault.  She was hurt because mentally, she self destructed and did this to herself.  There are thousands of similar stories here where this consistently happens exactly this way.