The complexity of two BPDs

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I was originally on this board given that DH and I suspect his ex has undiagnosed BPD. We have had other Ts confirm this is likely as well. Recently, SS25 was diagnosed with BPD. His mom took him to a psychologist for testing then sent her view of the diagnosis to DH. I say 'her view' because of course her language was all about blaming DH and how she wants him to both take responsibility for the BPD, and pay her money because she has had SS25 living with her "since he was 18". She told DH to talk with the T who gave the diagnosis, presumably because she wants to "prove" that this mental illness was a result of impacts from a long time ago, therefore making it a "child support" issue from their divorce.

SS25 and his mom are enmeshed and co-dependent. Mom is the enabler -- paying off his drug debts, buying him new electronics (to replace those he has sold for drugs) and rewarding him with clothes, etc. when he does what she asks (usually slamming DH in a text or email). SS25 will live with her, then move out (or get thrown out, we're never sure) over and over. I can't even count the number of times he has lived with her and then left, and then lived with her again.

DH has had little contact with SS25 for many years. When he returned from one of his treatment programs (he's been in at least 5), SS25 had just turned 18. The Ts had worked with SS25 to see how unhealthy it was for him to live with his Mom and he agreed. They worked with him to draw up a contract with DH so he could live in our home. The T explained to DH and SS25 that if the agreement was breached, SS25 would need to leave our home. It took only a few days for the breaches, and after a few weeks and several "second chances", DH took the difficult step of asking SS25 to move out. We were heartbroken, but he just called his Mom who took him in. Eventually, she sent him away to a one year religion based addiction program (he isn't religious). He returned after one year, and immediately started drinking. He eventually moved to a different city, but after about a year things got tough so he called his Mom, and she rescued him. She eventually sent him to another program.

The pattern has continued but according to uBPD mom, SS25 is at his worst ever -- suicidal, not eating, using "medicinal" marijuana (we don't think she has accepted that he is an addict and does far worse drugs), etc. She wants him to move out (I am sure he is stealing from her, is combative, etc.) but she is no doubt racked with guilt. She wants DH to agree to provide SS25 with monthly cheques (or rather pay her and she will give it to SS25). We know we can't do that -- it would just go to drugs. She is threatening to take DH to court - which she just might do given the year-long battle she was willing to fight to try to gain sole guardianship of SS23.

This is all so hard to watch. We know SS25 would be better away from his Mom, but have had those discussions with him for years and he can't seem to do it. Paying his rent would just allow him to use his welfare money to buy drugs. He has yet to truly participate in any treatment in a meaningful way (he has admitted this). The only way therapy related to BPD or his addiction will work is he at least tries to participate.

We are concerned given the description DH got from his ex (saying DH would be shocked by SS25's appearance.) We  believe the recent BPD diagnosis has sent him into a tailspin. I'm not sure if a T would have told SS25 his diagnosis if the T had known the truth -- uBPD's traits, their co-dependency and history, SS25's lack of commitment to past therapy, etc. But it's too late for that.

I don't know that anyone here will have any answers -- but i do know you will understand that having a uBPD mom is hard on any child, but then having BPD and addiction on top has made SS25's life extremely difficult. We are trying to remain hopeful that if uBPD tells him to move out, maybe this time SS25 will take the steps to get to a better place.

[NorthernGirl]

I was originally on this board given that DH and I suspect his ex has undiagnosed BPD. We have had other Ts confirm this is likely as well. Recently, SS25 was diagnosed with BPD. His mom took him to a psychologist for testing then sent her view of the diagnosis to DH. I say 'her view' because of course her language was all about blaming DH and how she wants him to both take responsibility for the BPD, and pay her money because she has had SS25 living with her "since he was 18". She told DH to talk with the T who gave the diagnosis, presumably because she wants to "prove" that this mental illness was a result of impacts from a long time ago, therefore making it a "child support" issue from their divorce.

SS25 and his mom are enmeshed and co-dependent. Mom is the enabler -- paying off his drug debts, buying him new electronics (to replace those he has sold for drugs) and rewarding him with clothes, etc. when he does what she asks (usually slamming DH in a text or email). SS25 will live with her, then move out (or get thrown out, we're never sure) over and over. I can't even count the number of times he has lived with her and then left, and then lived with her again.

DH has had little contact with SS25 for many years. When he returned from one of his treatment programs (he's been in at least 5), SS25 had just turned 18. The Ts had worked with SS25 to see how unhealthy it was for him to live with his Mom and he agreed. They worked with him to draw up a contract with DH so he could live in our home. The T explained to DH and SS25 that if the agreement was breached, SS25 would need to leave our home. It took only a few days for the breaches, and after a few weeks and several "second chances", DH took the difficult step of asking SS25 to move out. We were heartbroken, but he just called his Mom who took him in. Eventually, she sent him away to a one year religion based addiction program (he isn't religious). He returned after one year, and immediately started drinking. He eventually moved to a different city, but after about a year things got tough so he called his Mom, and she rescued him. She eventually sent him to another program.

The pattern has continued but according to uBPD mom, SS25 is at his worst ever -- suicidal, not eating, using "medicinal" marijuana (we don't think she has accepted that he is an addict and does far worse drugs), etc. She wants him to move out (I am sure he is stealing from her, is combative, etc.) but she is no doubt racked with guilt. She wants DH to agree to provide SS25 with monthly cheques (or rather pay her and she will give it to SS25). We know we can't do that -- it would just go to drugs. She is threatening to take DH to court - which she just might do given the year-long battle she was willing to fight to try to gain sole guardianship of SS23.

This is all so hard to watch. We know SS25 would be better away from his Mom, but have had those discussions with him for years and he can't seem to do it. Paying his rent would just allow him to use his welfare money to buy drugs. He has yet to truly participate in any treatment in a meaningful way (he has admitted this). The only way therapy related to BPD or his addiction will work is he at least tries to participate.

We are concerned given the description DH got from his ex (saying DH would be shocked by SS25's appearance.) We  believe the recent BPD diagnosis has sent him into a tailspin. I'm not sure if a T would have told SS25 his diagnosis if the T had known the truth -- uBPD's traits, their co-dependency and history, SS25's lack of commitment to past therapy, etc. But it's too late for that.

I don't know that anyone here will have any answers -- but i do know you will understand that having a uBPD mom is hard on any child, but then having BPD and addiction on top has made SS25's life extremely difficult. We are trying to remain hopeful that if uBPD tells him to move out, maybe this time SS25 will take the steps to get to a better place.

[livednlearned]

Hi NG,

I wrote a response and somehow managed to delete it 

Just wanted to say that I am walking this same path (minus the substance abuse). It's hard to watch and witness the toll double BPD takes on everyone involved. It would be hard enough to overcome a substance abuse issue without having BPD. Add to that an enabled BPD mother and it's enough to make you feel hopeless.

I do wonder, in your situation, if SS25 is the one in the tailspin, or if it is his mom's response to it. This is one of the complications that goes with these double BPD relationships. Maybe it is both of them.

SO also has a S17 who is on the autism spectrum, so it is difficult to tell whether he has BPD traits or not. He is certainly not ready for independent living thanks to his BPD mom struggling to do the same. Like your story, BPD mom wants SO to pay for his son to move out, not an insignificant request given they live in one of the more expensive cities in the US.

All we can do it keep the door open and stick to firm but loving boundaries and like you say, hope for the best.

[NorthernGirl]

I do wonder, in your situation, if SS25 is the one in the tailspin, or if it is his mom's response to it. This is one of the complications that goes with these double BPD relationships. Maybe it is both of them.

This is a good observation. At first DH got a bunch of panicked emails from his ex after the diagnosis saying how shocked DH would be by how SS25 looked and how we all needed to be prepared for the "worst case". But her emails since have been about money and SS25's therapy. If she thought he was so close to death, why is she so concerned about DH giving her money or about therapy? I think when SS25 is under her roof, she believes she is in control. If he has moved out (again), she will be in a tailspin.

It must have been hard for SS25 to hear the diagnosis. I think SS25 is smart enough to realize that his Mom is likely BPD. So maybe he pushed his Mom on the BPD issue and when she said it has nothing to do with her (she is fond of saying she is the only one in the family with no mental health issues), that prompted his decision to move out. Which could be a very good thing.

But since SS25 is NC with his Dad, we know nothing from his side. So we sit and wait.

[livednlearned]

But since SS25 is NC with his Dad, we know nothing from his side. So we sit and wait.

That's hard

Has SS25 ever reached out to his dad on his own before?

Is there any way to contact SS25 without going through his mom?

[NorthernGirl]

SS25 has reached out to DH many times, but not in the last few years since he and his mom have become more co-dependent. SS25 used to go through phases where he didn't connect with his mom. But the last few years SS25 has gotten money from her to cover his addiction debts and says he is obligated to her as a result.

DH sends SS25 regular texts to say hi. Sometimes he gets a response, sometimes he doesn't. DH sent a note a few days ago but hasn't heard back. DH's ex says SS25 doesn't have a phone at the moment - he would have sold it for drugs.

She sent a note last night saying she has filed a missing person's report for SS25. She hadn't heard from him for 5 days so went to the police. She told them he is suicidal. She says the police said he was a shelter about a week ago but hasn't been back, he isn't in hospital or jail and he hasn't accessed his bank account for days. This could be okay -- if SS25 is trying to break away from his Mom he may have taken some money and gone somewhere else or just stopped contacting her. Of course it could also be bad. Or it could be he is trying to hurt his mom (he knows she will be frantic with worry).

We feel helpless but can't do much but sit and wait to see if he reaches out for help.

[livednlearned]

I am so sorry, Nope.

I hope he is safe and that he doesn't read about BPD on the Internet

[NorthernGirl]

SS25 is apparently safe. Last night SS22 (who has special needs) took his Mom for dinner for Mother's Day. He said SS25 came along (in fact, SS22 paid for the dinner for all 3 - well over $100). SS22 said his brother is living at a shelter. He said "mom is being tougher on SS25", which we think means she won't let him live with her. However, we are guessing that she had the police find him, then she orchestrated getting him to a shelter. Unfortunately, this just reinforces to SS25 that he can't do anything without his mom. She will say she "saved him" once again.

As good as it is to hear he is safe and in a shelter, if he is back under his Mom's control it will be very difficult for him to move forward in a positive direction.

Also, DH's ex has tried another tact of quoting the bible to try to get DH to admit he is the one to blame for all SS25's problems (and therefore should give her and SS25 money). I guess the threat of SS25 dying didn't work so now she is turning to the scripture.

[sanemom]

As good as it is to hear he is safe and in a shelter, if he is back under his Mom's control it will be very difficult for him to move forward in a positive direction.

Also, DH's ex has tried another tact of quoting the bible to try to get DH to admit he is the one to blame for all SS25's problems (and therefore should give her and SS25 money). I guess the threat of SS25 dying didn't work so now she is turning to the scripture.

What a mess... .I wish this BPD drama would stop when they become adults, but so many of them are still too damaged to get out from the BPD vortex.  Will BPD mom take SS25 back in?  How likely is it that SS25 can become independent with the appropriate encouragement?

[NorthernGirl]

Hi sanemom. We think SS25 has the capability to live independently -- he has done it before. The added complication of his addiction, which he and his mom are usually in denial about, makes his life a challenge. He doesn't have healthy coping mechanisms so turns to drugs to calm his anxieties.

He has developed a black/white relationship with his mom (hence why we weren't surprised with the BPD diagnosis). He wants the money she provides, the nice home to live in, the dinners out, etc. But he doesn't want her constantly checking on him. I think his "independent genes" kick in once in awhile and he moves out. But then his addictions drain his funds and life throws the usual challenges at him. I think living at his mom's is a step easier than other options but still not easy enough.

His mom says she has him on a waitlist for a DBT program nearby. But her dropping him off at a clinic and him actually participating are two different things. If a good T can see through his facade and recognize what his mom is doing, he could make some good progress. We are still hopeful that he does this.

It is sad to watch someone with so much potential be so stuck and be in such danger all the time. He is smart -- finished high school despite being at treatment programs his last few years and had the marks to get accepted into college -- he is musical, he is great at many sports, he is resourceful, etc, etc. We continue to cross our fingers that he sees some of this potential and it helps him move forward.