back again with daughter in law bp

[grandmag]

It has been a while since I have made it in here... .was sick all winter and part of spring. However, nothing has changed in our "family problem" and in fact in some ways is worse. I couldn't even see my counselor who is helping me with all this while I was sick... .for 5 months. Decided I better make it back in here too!

Some things do seem worse... .dil won't even let me talk to my grandkids on the phone without using the speaker and she tells me she can hear every word... sleepovers with my grandkids, which used to be failrly regular, seem to be now mostly when she just wants a sitter so she can be out... .I found out recently that dil is trying to negatively influence the youngest against me... .my son seldom asnwers the home phone at all or returns a message from home:he will call me at times from his car on the way home(has to be short call)... .son is looking ALWAYS exhausted and stressed and has a much shorter fuse... .he will tell me something that is on his mind, but even a day later, suddenly "doesn't want to talk about it"... .one grandkid has a couple of health issues that keep waiting to be addressed... .and so forth and so on.

Mostly classic BPD stuff, right?

As for me, I don't seem to ever know now what I can say, do, ask for (come to dinner?sleepover?), or navigate much of anything that I would consider normal, with them. Son seems to be acting more "trapped" not liking it, but stuck.

It is so hard not to actually worry about these folks that I love, and don't want to have to lose connection with, because of dil"s illness. Seems like I am back to square one. I am alone, no hubby to even share this stuff with on an ongoing basis. Coming in here helped in the past and maybe I even was able to help another. So... .here again! (Still)

grandmag 

[Turkish]

Your son,  unfortunately, is on his own journey.  He needs to figure this out as a grown man and rescue himself. 

As frustrating as your DIL is,  enjoy your time with your grandkids.  At least you have access.  Think of it as your own bubble when you are with them,  and leave the dysfunction behind as beat that you can.  Your r/s with them is what you can influence.

[Notwendy]

I agree with Turkish. It seems your DIL is driving the wheel of the family bus and everyone in it is under her control. If you push for the grandkids or time with your son, you can imagine how this would work.

I think it is great that she brings the kids to you when she needs a babysitter. Do it! Having a relationship with them is a great thing. She can say what she wants about you, but they can see for themselves who grandma is- and over time, they will see through her. Just wait until they are teens and dare to talk back to her. They may even drive themselves to your house one day.

You can't possibly imagine the impact of your relationship with the kids over time. Even if it doesn't seem to be enough for you- a little makes a difference. Summers and school vacations were the hardest on my BPD mother- kids home 24/7- so my father's family welcomed us. These times were highlights- and we had cousins to play with ( and bless them for putting up with a pack of us as teens). My mother didn't like my father's FOO but no matter what she said- we loved them.


But regardless- the most important person in this is you. You need to take care of you. Your health is most important but also your well being. It may feel heartless to you ( you will always be your son's mother) but the key to feeling better is to let go of this. Not your love for him, but let go of your investment in helping make this better for him. You can't. If it is going to change that has to come from him. Other posters in your situation have also stated that letting go and building your own life is the key to your own happiness and you deserve to be happy. He chose his wife, you didn't- and the consequences of this choice are his.

Please get help, and also encouragement to expand your life- make new friends, join some group- at a place of worship, a museum, a charity - any kind of volunteer group that you can manage has potential friends. A book club? Use your imagination. If you can exercise at all- a silver sneaker group- or even physical therapy if that is appropriate. Join a cooking or healthy eating group. Find a 12 step co-dependency group. Look around you at the possibilities. But do something for you and open up your new world. Post here too. But a hug from a new friend is a new beginning.

[grandmag]

turkish I appreciate your few words that hit the mark! I know that I cannot be part of my son's life with dil but I do seem to grieve the relationship between him and me being so much less than it has been, and frustrated and sad, knowing the reason why.
My grandkids get to see or even talk with me nowadays, only if it suits my dil, my son has already said he cannot arrange any contact without her "approval" so I do not even know when or if that will happen, or when. I find that soo frustrating. Family contact depends on her whims.
The kids, when they do get to be with me alone, always start by "dumping" their frustrations about home then we move on to our time together. I have been very careful about saying much to them about home, really once I did advise that if things got totally out of hand with her and daddy was not home, they needed to get out of the house and to a neighbor to ask for help, get ahold of daddy or even police. They have never been brave enough to do that, saying they are too afraid of mommy.
Guess I do need to be reminded of the perspective I need to keep, even when things seem to be worse. Thank you for that. Had my first appointment with counselor this week, now that I am able to be driving again. Being here and getting feedback is also important to me. Thank you for being here!

[Notwendy]

It is hard, I know. I got the same from my own father once I was grown. Your son loves you, and my father loved me, but I guess wives with BPD don't like that. When I called my father, she listened in on the other line. She painted me black to him. But I was powerless over this. He did whatever she told him to do. I didn't understand why, but he made that choice.

A reason I write on this post is to assure you that over the course of these kids growing up, your relationship with them makes an impact. Yes, lay low with speaking about her. What the kids need so much is unconditional love. They are afraid of Mommy. I was!  Can you imagine the impact of a loving adult who you can speak freely to, and not have to fear. That person is YOU!

I don't know your future. I can tell you my story. My time playing with my cousins was some of the best times ever. We remain close. Now- our kids are close to each other too! My mother alienated her FOO from me and so the family I am close to is my Dad's. My kids love their cousins. I can't imagine how my father's mother put up with the whole pack of us. His sisters made a big impact in my life too as role models of what a loving mother is like. I loved my grandmother and she was important to me.  I am so grateful she was a presence in my life.

I know you are sad, but you count! I don't know what has caused your son to make the decisions he has. But there are children who didn't choose their mother and they need unconditional love. What a great opportunity for you to give them this when you have the chance to be with them.

[grandmag]

Not Wendy: you too have said things I needed to hear at this time!

I do babysit... .only have not if I have been too sick. I do kinda resent though that we used to have "regularly scheduled" sleepovers but recently she seems to have narrowed that wayyyy down. As though babysitting is ok because it benefits her, sleepovers not so much because they aren't about her, never mind what the kids want/need.

You said maybe someday my grandkids may drive to my house... .soo funny, the older grandson has already told me that when he is old enough to drive, he will be coming over! 

I do know how much time here with me can make a difference, and my counselor and I have talked about this before. My parents divorced when I was 5... .Mom had custody of me and my sister, but the time we spent with Dad twice a month and all summer, with him and also extended family, was where our hearts were, and I believe shaped us more as people.
However, our time with him/them was assured, there is no assurance for my grandkids and me.

I don't think I really try to make it better for my son. All I really do is listen when he sometimes spouts off about things. The difficult thing there, is seeing and hearing him be so spent and miserable, I know I can't do anything about that. When his middle child was still pretty young, he asked to come over to talk to me.
He told me there was "something wrong" with his wife, but that she adamantly refused to be involved in getting any kind of help. He said the only choices he felt he had, were to divorce or stay. Then he said he believed if he divorced, she would have custody and he DID NOT want his children living alone with her.
(where we live, mothers almost always get custody) We have not talked about it since, and I feel he would need to be the one to start that conversation.
What I grieve there is that we are not able to have a "normal" grown child-parent relationship. And since he is my only child... .

Yes, the kids know they can talk to me without fear. One of them told me this winter, and believe me, I wanted to cry, that I am the Only one he has EVER been able to say these things to.

Since being able to drive some now, I have already been giving some thought to what I might like and be able to add to my life. I have a few ideas, will be going in that direction although I'm not fully released from further medical testing as we don't have an answer yet as to what is causing the problem. I have to be careful with all that, hopefully get an answer soon, and also complete some regular screenings to be caught up.
I have made a couple of new friends in the last 6 months, and it feels great!
Still spending most of my time at home, I am keeping up with my hobbies (flower garden, reading, crocheting). One of my new friends is a neighbor and lives alone too, and we have been watching movies, doing some errands together, etc.

One last thing: I have to have a medical procedure and the only person I know who could drive me that day, etc... .is my son. He has said he has time off coming to him from work, and that he could do it. But this week, in trying to connect with him to discuss it, he didn't call me back from home. Today, he let me know he would be calling me before he left work. He did, only to say now she expected him to go with her somewhere and she was waiting at his work. Admit I am stewing a bit about this!

Everything you posted, I needed to hear at this time. Thank you!

Are you able to have contact with your dad at all now? I hope so.

[Turkish]

I wasn't in nearly as bad a controlling situation as your son is,  but I hid things.  After the break up,  I told close friends and my mother things I hid.  My mother commented, "I never knew how bad it was for you." I hid so much in order to keep my family intact. 

My mother,  however,  is BPD (and PTSD, depressive... .these two clinically diagnosed... .she calls herself BPD as well). As a child, I hid many things as well,  including to the T my mother sent me to at 13 (to be fixed), and to the CPS case worker who caught up to us the same year given our living situation.  Was out shame? Maybe.  But maybe it was a feeling of being lost and trying my best to hold things together,  both at 13 (with my mother) and also at 42 (with the mother of my children). Trying to think back,  I think even if I had reached out,  it was still by burden to bear. I fixed it by letting her go (she initiated it,  but I contributed,  passive-aggresively).

Focus on your grandchildren.  It sounds very painful to watch,  but don't under estimate your time and influence with them.  I had a safe family nearby to escape to.  That boy is my best friend to this day over 30 years later. I didn't have grandparents (or any other relatives),  but rather a safe home in which to spend time. You are that safe home,  yes? I can't stress enough how that probably saved my life at the time.  Cherish whatever time you have with those precious children.  You are a lifeline.

[Notwendy]

I am sorry you are having health issues and hope that you have a speedy recovery.

I truly do not understand the power these people have over others. It is unimaginable to me. Until I saw the kind of power my mother seemed to have in our family.

One thing I learned to do was to not rely on anything or anyone in her circle. This meant money, possessions, and people.  If they chose to be with me, great, but there relationship with me depended on my mother's mood and her moods can change.

I could give several examples. She may offer to give or buy me something and then change her minds, so I didn't rely on that. If I asked my father for something, he often had to ask her first. At any moment, my parents could act loving and praise me. One mistake, I was the worst child on the planet.

One piece of advise I might give you is to not rely on your son for any help with things you need. It adds a dimension to the relationship that may be difficult for him- how to balance the needs of his family, what his wife wants,  with yours. You may find this unacceptable- thinking grown children should help their parents. In principle, I think they should too.  But the problem with relying on him is that he has subjected his life to his daughter's control- which then allows her to have some control of you. This draws you into their drama and brings things like resentment ( your feelings) towards your son for letting you down. What you want is to have a life free of this dynamic. It isn't about your son. It is about you and staying free from the DIL's drama.

You may fear that if you didn't need your son, he might not see you at all. That is scary but think of this- do you want him to see you because he cares about you, or see you because he feels obligated. I'm suspect you'd rather he go with you for coffee than feel obligated to see you. So, if you can arrange a ride, and he says he can't- the effect of hearing " it's OK son, I have a ride, but I would love to see you for coffee any time" instead of your disappointment.

The relationship I have tried to establish with my mother involves me staying as clear from her drama as possible. it isn't the same as yours- but it is an example of steering away from drama. She does fear abandonment and even if she can be verbally abusive to me, I think she also fears that her children will not see her at all. One of her issues is to have people emotionally caretake and do things for her. I think she feels she has to need help for us to visit, so I try to make the visit not about that. When I visit her, the visit can turn into me doing a bunch of things for her. While I don't mind helping her, and agree that it is good to help a parent, it becomes the whole of the relationship. So, I have had to have boundaries on this. One thing I try to do is arrange something that doesn't involve these dynamics- take her to lunch, or the shopping center- where we are doing things together- and yes- it is still helping as she doesn't drive and we can get things she needs, but it is a different dynamic than her staying at home telling me what to do. We can share a meal, or a movie, and that adds a dimension to the relationship and it involves less drama.

Your role as a mom has been to help your son, and after a certain age, we parents hope that our children will help us too. But perhaps there are ways to add other aspects to your relationship with your grown son over time that steers clear of the entanglement with his wife. Your counselor might be able to help you with ideas.

I hope you feel better soon.

[grandmag]

to NotWendy
ok... .you posted a lot of pertinent stuff in your last post again. I cannot address all
 of it right now, but later.
I am mainly posting now because everything with family is still escalating. I will be seeing my counselor, but not for 10 days. I started this post last night, but just couldn't do it and could not sleep until after 2am. The main thing bothering me was not being able to connect with son about the procedure that needs to be done, and that I must have someone to drive me to and home, and stay with me for a while after.

In an ideal world, I would have others I could ask to help me get the procedure done. In the real world, I do not. My handful of friends work and cannot take time off for this. Also, this is something that I do not really want to do with friends, anyway.

Well, the rest of this post was lost... .will finish later.


This week, son texted 3 different days, saying he would call me about it later that day. He already knew about it, said he could take time off. But as things were this last week, he did not call back any of those times. Last night, he called me, late, from home. Basically he just raised his voice a lot and said he didn't see that he had to talk with me about it at his time, was there a
deadline? He was loud about it and saying how much they were doing (that she "scheduled"and that they didn't even see how they could have the kids spend time with me another week! I heard her in the background, and had such an impression of him doing this to placate her... .and yet it is what it is.

I made  the mistake of trying to explain to him why I needed to get back to my doctor but there just was no point being rational. This began the week before, but son had said they were busy every night that week, so I had already waited a week. Maybe I am overeacting but I have an overall intuition that dil is really working to push me out, period, and not just about my needed son's help with the procedure. Of course I don't want that with son, or grandkids. At this point I am not even being "allowed" by her to speak to the kids on the phone. It frightens me to have to dangle and not know what is really happening in their house. Hearing "we are too busy" can be true, but with her/them, it has always really meant she just doesn't want it for her own reasons. Especially when the "busy" goes into weeks of time.

As to the procedure, it it not life threatening, but important. Doc is still trying to diagnose the problem I have been having since December, this is the last thing to do after many various labs. To make it clear also he is retiring very soon and there is limited time for him to do this. I do not have a new  gastroenterologist lined up yet.

So, I am just so pressured at this time. Looking back, when I was very sick those months and son helped get groceries and medicines, I am sure that was reason enough for dil to escalate her business. A couple of friends helped during that time also, but it doesn't seem to take much for dil to feel threatened. Knowing that doesn't help me know what to do now,though. Seems she is still driving the bus and has us all stuck in the mud!

When things get worse, it triggers feelings in me also, uncomfortable to say the least. Last night, it was just too much. Sleeplessness and symptoms of my belly problem. I am going to talk with doc's nurse to find out his last day to be doing procedures, attempt to set up appts for my catching-up screenings, and see if counselor can see me any sooner... .have plenty of work at home in finishing unpacking... .all I know right now is to do what I need to do for me and try (somehow) not to let all this with family keep me in constant overwhelm! A friend called yesterday and we are going to set a date for something fun... .I am looking into Al-Anon meeting nearby me... .I cannot handle all this alone and I absolutely cannot keep the dark family secrets living rent-free inside my head or gut.

Question: am I on anywhere near the right track for me?

[Notwendy]

I understand your painful feelings, I really do. I am a mother myself. A daughter also loves a father in a special way, and having my mother control his relationship with me was really difficult. It was hard to imagine someone having this kind of power over another person, but I can say in the case of my father, my mother had absolute power over everything he did. I don't understand why. This power was stronger than his relationship with me.

One explanation of this is boundaries- where one person ends and one begins. You know what is you and what is not you. When someone says something to you, you can step back and say "is this me too, do I agree with this" and if you don't, you don't accept this as being true for you.

The kind of relationship your son has with his wife ( and my parents) has fuzzy boundaries. I had to reconcile this by realizing that my father was not just my father. When it came to will, and direction, my parents were one person. When I spoke to him, I was speaking to her ( she listened in on our phone calls and read my e mails to him).  If I asked him something, the response was from her speaking through him.

Everything you say about needing help with your procedure is true, it makes sense. I think it makes absolute sense for a grown child to take a parent to medical care. I went with my parents to some of their appts. The problem is that you are not relying on your son. You are relying on his wife. Because when it comes to his decisions, she makes them for him. And that is hard. I hope you find a solution. I just found that relying on my parents was frustrating and hurt my feelings often, because everything depended on my mother's feelings.

[grandmag]

WOW all this is a lot to take in! I called my counselor yesterday, they were closed but had a number to call if you needed to talk. I did that last night, it was reassuring in some ways... .that I was doing the "right things" for now, had a temporary plan.

For 2 days now, having trouble with my feelings, though. I am very tired and don't have much get-up and go. The last two nights it has been 2am before I could get to sleep. I don't know, maybe I am expecting too much from myself while taking everything in.

It is a holiday, and I know I will not see my grandkids for it. Depressing.

Since I really don't know where all this is going to lead, or how far it will go, feeling anxious also.
In general, I am to a point of being in general, very uncomfortable! I have heard that it takes getting to a point where a person has too much pain, for them to make changes. Maybe so.

Just sayin'

Going to go water my garden.

[Notwendy]

I'm sorry grandmag-

When something similar to this happened with my father, one of his siblings ( they had mostly not spoken about my mother all these years) told me about when my parents were first married. She disliked my mother from the beginning. ( and my mother did not like my father's family). I heard that my grandparents hardly saw me as a baby and my first few years. I know they saw me some, as there are a few pictures, but probably not as much as they would have liked.

I probably experienced feelings similar to you. How could a father just dismiss a relationship with his own daughter? How is it that he thought it was OK so forward my e mails to her, let her listen in on our calls and whatever else I don't even know. Did I mean anything to him at all? Did he ever love me?

These were my feelings for me, but I also grieved for my grandmother. I had an idea of what she may have felt when my father married my mother. My grandmother loved my father dearly.

This is unimaginable to me. There is something sacred about a parent- child relationship. The relationship between spouses is sacred. I know the Bible says something like " leave his parents and cling to his wife" but that is to me symbolic of the natural order of things- you leave the family home to create your own. It also says "honor your father and your mother". You don't dissolve the relationship just because your spouse wants you to.

Even if someone isn't religious, these things in the Bible to me are reflective of human nature- with stories of humans who struggled with various situations, relationships, feelings, and a set of rules for how to get along- don't murder, don't steal, don't falsely accuse people, respect your parents. Multiple cultures have similar stories and rules. Stories were the way cultures passed on their wisdom and customs in a mostly non literate world. I think a majority of humans have incorporated this ethics into their own sense of right and wrong and expect others to have done so too.

So it was natural for me to assume that my parents did. And in most ways they did. They were honest in general- would not ever consider committing a crime, or doing something really bad and they didn't. It was a complete shock to realize that while I was staying with these rules, when it came to personal relationships, my mother did not- but I assumed she was. She lies, straight to my face, flat out lies, and swears she "never lies to me" but I have caught so many of them, I can't trust a word she says to me. So what could she have said to my father about me? I can't know, and did he believe her? I can trust that she won't hurt me physically- she has that rule, but she has no problem lying to me, making up stories about me and telling others things about me that are not true. Because she is a basically honest person in other ways, people assume she is telling the truth, they believe her.

Such is the trouble with pwBPD. They are not necessarily bad people, but somehow, it seems they have a different set of "rules" for relationships and it is puzzling since it isn't obvious at first.

What about my father? He loved her. He also lived with her and so she had his ears on a daily basis. She could say things over and over and I think in time, they shared her way of thinking about things. I considered Stockholm syndrome, I don't know what it was. But it is unimaginable to me to dismiss a relationship with a parent or child for no extreme reason ( I think there are extremes- abuse, criminal activity - but those are rare). You didn't deserve this. You didn't do anything to cause your son's behavior. But I don't think we can understand it.

Take care of yourself grandmom. You're the most important person you have. By taking care of you, I think the rest will fall into perspective, even if it feel hurtful.