External Confirmation

[Phoenix09]

My family is insane.  I've known it for years and readily admit it and I work very hard to deal with it.  I know everyone says their family is dysfunctional but mine really takes it to an upper level.  I won't bore you with all the details - I've been to three different counselors and I've questioned myself when I found I took a little bit of pleasure in seeing how shocked a new therapist is when I tell them my story. 

All that said - I can't figure out why it throws me for a loop when I get external confirmation - meaning someone outside the family tells me that they recognize the insanity. 

I don't hide things.  I grew up with so many secrets and telling so many lies so that we could look like the perfect family.  I got sick of it so now I just admit the alcohol and drugs and money issues and all the other crap that goes on.  In fact - I tell stories about the crazy antics.  Those that know me and my family typically laugh - it's just another day.  It's how I cope.  But there is just something about when someone else says "I can't believe what goes on in your family".  It happened last night.

I was talking with someone that works with my niece and this person made the comment about how shocked she was with everything that goes on.  I laughed and joked and did my usual response but by the time I made it home - I was an emotional mess.  I stayed up most of the night drinking and listening to music trying to sort out my feelings.  I have no idea what I was feeling - I only know that I didn't feel good.  Today - I'm trying to balance back out and get back to coping with things.  It happens every time someone confirms what I already know.  Does that mean I'm just lying to myself that I've accepted all of this and I really haven't dealt with it?

[hope2727]

So sorry to hear about your struggles. My family is a wreck too. I have pretty much cut myself off from them. Its just to toxic. All I can tell you is that there is peace in distance. Don't give up on yourself over them. Decide what your values are and then live to them. If your family doesn't fit into that picture they will either step up to your standards or step off. I can tell you that I grieved the family I wish I had but am pretty happy in my "chosen" family. Good luck.

[Peacefromwithin]

My family is insane.  I've known it for years and readily admit it and I work very hard to deal with it.  I know everyone says their family is dysfunctional but mine really takes it to an upper level.  I won't bore you with all the details - I've been to three different counselors and I've questioned myself when I found I took a little bit of pleasure in seeing how shocked a new therapist is when I tell them my story. 

Hi Phoenix!

It feels good to write "My family is insane", doesn't it? I know when I first was told that by a therapist, it absolutely FREED me. I just have trouble remembering it.

I know exactly what you mean when people blow you off and say, "Oh, everyone's family is dysfunctional". That used to make me so angry. Because no one knows the true meaning of "dysfunctional" and "insanity" until they've experienced a family member with BPD or NPD behind closed doors.

I remember the time a psychologist I was seeing had a shocked look on his face when he met my parents and my mother absolutely raged at him. That was validation that changed me (although again it didn't last). He had kind eyes and wasn't one to ever look shocked like that. I didn't move a muscle during that experience. I sat as still as a statue and just kept staring at his eyes and facial expressions to get a read on the safety level of the room and how he was taking in my mother's behavior.

I remember another therapist, who I should have stopped seeing but that's another story, who was also usually stoic despite an annoying smirk on her face that made me extremely anxious. I told her about a recent time that my father offered to treat my husband and I for dinner, and my mother kicked my father so hard under the table, that we saw it, and my father screamed outloud, "Owwwwww! ______! Why did you kick me like that?" Her eyes bugged out of her head. Talk about validation.

But I wonder if therapists don't like to say something like, "Your mother seems to have BPD" because they're worried about getting sued or something. I think I had one therapist say it a while ago but I forget how she worded it. Sometimes I wondered if bad therapists thought I was lying or over-exaggerating, I don't know. But what I do know is, a lot of my time with therapists was completely a waste of time, energy, and money because what I needed was for them to look me directly in the eyes, and firmly and clearly state, "PFW, your parents are insane and abusive, and it is not your fault. Stop people-pleasing them because nothing you do or say will ever be good enough for you. This is what you need to do in order to keep your sanity while living with them".

One time my uBPD/NPD sister got "thrown out" of a therapist's office mid-session. I know why. But the therapist did not tell her why. The therapist said something like "you don't have a confidence problem, I can't help you". That therapist should have told her the truth. Then again perhaps it's dangerous?

All that said - I can't figure out why it throws me for a loop when I get external confirmation - meaning someone outside the family tells me that they recognize the insanity. 

The rare times I've gotten external confirmation has taken a 1,000,000,000 pound weight off my shoulders. But it doesn't stick. It's too engrained for me to blame myself. Plus the pwNPD or BPD is usually pretty good at hiding their true behavior around other people. One of my sisters treats me horrendously but acts the exact opposite around other people. My mother does that too, although she sometimes treats strangers in public horrendously because she has a huge entitlement problem and will throw fits to get her way if smiling and manipulatively being nice doesn't work.

I don't hide things.  I grew up with so many secrets and telling so many lies so that we could look like the perfect family.  I got sick of it so now I just admit the alcohol and drugs and money issues and all the other crap that goes on.  In fact - I tell stories about the crazy antics.  Those that know me and my family typically laugh - it's just another day.  It's how I cope.  But there is just something about when someone else says "I can't believe what goes on in your family".  It happened last night.

I give you so much credit for not hiding things. The majority of my extended family does not the real way my parents and siblings act when they're not around. We looked like The Brady Bunch to everyone on the outside. I used to try to explain what was happening, but I couldn't get it out factually; there was too much emotion and so I'd look like the crazy one. Or I'd just stuff everything down and keep it all in, for fear of what would happen if I told anyone. My mother would go into an insane rage at me just at the thought that I might be telling a neighbor or a friend what a horrible mother she was. So I usually just shut up and didn't say anything. I never heard anyone say "I can't believe what goes on in your family" because I never allowed myself the gift of telling.

I was talking with someone that works with my niece and this person made the comment about how shocked she was with everything that goes on.  I laughed and joked and did my usual response but by the time I made it home - I was an emotional mess.  I stayed up most of the night drinking and listening to music trying to sort out my feelings.  I have no idea what I was feeling - I only know that I didn't feel good.  Today - I'm trying to balance back out and get back to coping with things.  It happens every time someone confirms what I already know.  Does that mean I'm just lying to myself that I've accepted all of this and I really haven't dealt with it?

I have experienced that countless times--being an emotional mess at the truth of the situations, and then not having any idea of what I was actually feeling other than "What the heck?" I, too, used music as my savor. I know I don't have to tell you that drinking down your feelings is a slippery slope... .that won't end up good for you... .stop that now if you can. Allow yourself the gift to feel your feelings. Write them down in a journal if you need to or see a therapist to get them out in a safe place. I think it's cool that people confirm stuff to you, but maybe you're having difficulty hearing the truth? I wonder sometimes if that's why I spent a long time pretending that everything was okay, because admitting the truth--that the people who were supposed to raise me, love me, protect me, and all that, were abusive insane crazy people. One time my therapist made a joke about being raised by wolves, and I said, "I'd have rather been raised by wolves because at least then I'd know how to be a normal wolf."

No, it does not mean you are lying to yourself. Be gentle with yourself. It is NOT easy to accept the fact that your family is insane. It took me many decades to realize a lot of truths about my family. This stuff is hard to swallow. But you know what? You can still make a normal, healthy, happy life for yourself. Be grateful that you see the insanity instead of participating in it. People who are insane don't know that they're insane.

I hope I worded this ok and that it didn't come out patronizing in any way because that is so not my intent. It's hard sometimes because I don't know the age of who I am writing to. I hope my reply helped in some way. Be kind to yourself, you deserve it. It's not easy staying out of the insanity. 

[pyropsycho]

Hi Phoenix09, I can't really say why you react that way when other people confirm/validate how crazy your family is, but I know for me that if I were feeling that way, it would probably be because having someone else acknowledge it would make it more real for me. When I use humor in that way, it lightens it and makes it easier for me to deal with, and I can almost pretend that it isn't actually that bad. When someone else notices it for what it is, though, that illusion I've created comes crashing down on me pretty hard and I realize "whoa, my life IS pretty effed up." But hey, it's not all bad. This site wouldn't exist if there weren't so many of us. Plus, I would rather face it head on than just keep ignoring all of the negative consequences of it like I've done for most of my life. Anyway, I can definitely relate. Hope that wasn't too much of a downer.

[DaughterOfHera]

Hello Phoenix09.  Gawd, I know what you mean.  I laughed out loud when I saw Peacefromwithin's first sentence!  I try so hard to be PC and sensitive, but sometimes I just want to scream and laugh at the same time, and call a spade a spade.  For those of us growing up with ill parents / family, we know what it's like to "tow the line" so to speak, helping to hide the situation, helping our abusers to get away with abusing us, pretending (or believing) that our "normal" actually is normal... .then we grow up.  Only once has someone in my family ever said to me that they knew the truth... .and it was a BPDaunt if you can believe it.  Most people would either believe the lie or, I'm assuming, must have just felt too uncomfortable or too powerless to say anything.  Once my adult friends and others in my adult life started witnessing my BPDmother's way of speaking to me, I was absolutely SHOCKED when they said so.  Validation?  Someone else can see this?  I think I've just been trained to expect to continue to go through this feeling alone (like it's mine alone to bear and deal with) without any validation, and then when it does show up, I don't know what to do with it.  I can sit for hours / days / weeks trying to sort out that validation in my head and what it means or might mean.  Phoenix09, I send you wishes for ease as you continue to deal with your reactions to this un-balancing situation.

[Peacefromwithin]

Hello Phoenix09.  Gawd, I know what you mean.  I laughed out loud when I saw Peacefromwithin's first sentence!  I try so hard to be PC and sensitive, but sometimes I just want to scream and laugh at the same time, and call a spade a spade.

I sort of regret writing that now. The reason my therapist said it back then, was to free me. It was either I who was the crazy one, or them, in my mind. I spent my life believing I was the crazy one, and trying to make rational sense as to why they treat me the way they do, or act the way the do, or say the things the do, until I had a therapist help me see my truth.

The first psychologist I ever saw when I was very depressed (no surprise there) met my parents, and although his words weren't as direct, (I was still living at home so he was careful what he said), he helped me a lot because he saw first hand what was going on. My uBPD/NPD mother showed her true colors, and although my uNPD put on a good show, he saw through it and told me so, even though it was hard to hear.

I know now I have to still have compassion even if people are crazy. I know now that it's not my fault. I didn't cause it, I can't control it, and I can't change it. I have to stop expecting them to suddenly wake up and act different. I only have control over my responses and behavior. I have to do my part--maintain healthy boundaries and limits, and not let their behavior, words, or deeds effect me. Peace IS an internal way of being. It's all about being serene amidst the chaos.

Today I have a choice to either let go of their behavior and let them be who they are, craziness and all, or I can continue to let it eat me up inside. If I wake up and expect them to suddenly act different or be who they're not, that's on me. My "insanity" is that I thought if I people-pleased just right or acted perfect or tried harder to be exactly who they wanted me to be, that the rages, abuse, evilness, nastiness, and all that would stop. I kept doing the same thing expecting different results. Now I'm free of all that, thanks to acceptance, forgiveness, boundaries, and self-care/self-preservation.

[DaughterOfHera]

Peacefromwithin, I too went through something similar.  I turned myself inside-out for decades, going to therapy, women's groups, self-help groups, read self-help books / materials, and did my homework!  I made such HUGE efforts to improve our situation.  I did it for me, but I think I also had hoped, somewhere inside me, that if I worked on myself, it would free up space for my BPDmother to do some work on herself.  Of course, that never happened, and so I was left with a better life for myself, but still no healthy relationship with her, and I finally had to accept that.  Establishing TRUTH / REALITY / SANITY for ourselves is something that takes us on a journey just in itself, and for those of us with mentally ill family, we can never manage to establish this for THEM, just for ourselves with work.  It really IS nice, though, when others outside the situation can offer validation for us, can confirm reality for us, even when we don't know what to do with that at first.

[Peacefromwithin]

Peacefromwithin, I too went through something similar.  I turned myself inside-out for decades, going to therapy, women's groups, self-help groups, read self-help books / materials, and did my homework!  I made such HUGE efforts to improve our situation. 

Same here. Sometimes I think the reason I'm not where I think I should be in the situation, is that I am still seeking validation because I was so badly brainwashed to think everything was my fault, and what I thought I was seeing, feeling, and experiencing wasn't real. 

I did it for me, but I think I also had hoped, somewhere inside me, that if I worked on myself, it would free up space for my BPDmother to do some work on herself.

 

I let go of the fantasy that somehow my mother would work on herself, or see her wrongs, realize I was a really sweet kid after all, she'll look within and wake up one day and say "Wow I emotionally tortured my own child!" apologize and hug me and tell me that she loves me and she's sorry--yeah I let go of that fantasy at least 20 years ago. Maybe in the afterlife when she's spirit and not her insane mind she'll be able to send me a sign or something. Or maybe that's just another fantasy. My mother is just way too broken, way too long gone, to ever say "I'm sorry" for anything. Her thinking is just way too warped and irreparable.

Of course, that never happened, and so I was left with a better life for myself, but still no healthy relationship with her, and I finally had to accept that. 

Well at least you were able to work on yourself and make a better life your yourself. I still struggle greatly with that. I'm not sure why but I think it's because I'm still listening to the old tapes engraved into my head. I cannot get away from them no matter how hard I try. They're in there but good.

You are far better than many of us I think, that you were able to make a better life for myself AND have acceptance for the relationship that you'll never have with your mother.

Establishing TRUTH / REALITY / SANITY for ourselves is something that takes us on a journey just in itself, and for those of us with mentally ill family, we can never manage to establish this for THEM, just for ourselves with work. 

Establishing truth/reality/sanity-----so hard to do with family members like this, no? I know I have to remind myself to stand in my truth. No one can validate my experiences but ME. A former T once said to me: "If I lined up people from one coast to the other coast and they told you that it wasn't your fault but that your mother was crazy, you still wouldn't believe it. It has to come from within"- or something along those lines.

I need to remind myself that what mentally ill people see as truth, is actually false. But it's not easy to do because of their mind games.

It really IS nice, though, when others outside the situation can offer validation for us, can confirm reality for us, even when we don't know what to do with that at first.

Yes I agree validation from others who can say from an outside perspective that you're dealing with sick people, is very helpful at first.

[Phoenix09]

There is so much comfort in hearing things from others... .whether it's confirmation or just similar experiences.  The doubt over whether it is something I did or could have done.  The uncertainty over is it me or them.  I'm a very intelligent, hard worker with a Masters degree and yet after 25 years - I've never found a career.  I've bounced from one job to the next and with each new interview - I look back over my resume and try to explain my life.  Lost - that word just seems to explain my entire life and that leads me to thinking that I was the broken one.  I try to force myself to believe it because if I did believe it - I could fix what was wrong with me but I know it's not true.  Hearing other people say that it is my family - I guess I feel a sense of relief that I'm not hopeless.

Two weeks ago M and Sis were calling me night and day as the two of them fought and carried on about issues.  I patched things up as I always do.  I talked them each off the cliff - they called each other at 1am one night and that's the last I heard from them.  I saw my father last night and made the comment "I guess life is back to normal since I haven't heard from anyone" (we all live within 10 miles of each other).  His response was "what's normal"?

This time feels different though.  Things have been changing in my own life as I make realizations over how I react to my H the same way I do with my family.  I expect everything to be a lie.  I don't trust any verbal statement made.  We can make plans to do something or go somewhere but I am constantly waiting for that to fall apart.  So many days that I think about the quote from the movie "Ya Ya Sisterhood" - "it's like she's always waiting for the bottom to fall out"... .it's because it did.  And it did over and over again no matter how many times I picked up the pieces.

Now though - the latest "silent treatment" because there is no drama... .it has me reflecting.  I don't ever remember getting off the phone with my mother and feeling good or better.  She'll call me with so much drama and the sky is falling and then I'll get update after update (non-stop text messages if I don't pick up the phone).  Then suddenly... .silence.  That is how I know everything is ok.  And if I call her - everything will be spun around to how she suffered so much more than I did or I can't possibly understand how much she has gone through.  And if that's not working - she'll tell me what a screw up I am.  Last time I remember calling her recently was over disappointment that I was turned down for a job I really thought I had a shot at.  She told me I never was much of a leader.  I've led camping trips through the National Parks with passengers from all over the world and coached college sports teams.  But she doesn't think I have any leadership skills when I get turned down for a job. 

I guess I just keep waiting for it to stop hurting and sometimes - when the reality hits that it never is going to stop hurting - I just need to learn to live with it.  It just makes me sad. 

[DaughterOfHera]

Phoenix09... .Yes, their words, their symptoms, will always hurt us... .I haven't yet figured out a way to get this to stop.  I was sharing with my memoir-writing group, recently, in a piece about growing up in a family dealing with mental illness.  I had written that, whenever I was in the presence of my BPDm I always felt so alone, but now that I've cut contact with her, it's like she's constantly present because her hurtful words, eye-rolling, smirks, and smiles when she hurt me, are always swirling around in my head.  DECADES of therapy, exercises, accepting onus for myself, changing my life, and cutting contact... .and I still REACT... .and she's not even here!    Jiminy Cricket!  I was thinking, yesterday, about Orphan Syndrome (symptoms that come from not having loving parents).  There is a theory that it can take 2 - 3 times longer to solve those feelings of worthlessness and hearing those old tapes in the head... .2 - 3 times longer than the person actually experienced them in the first place.  I cut contact with my m in my 30's, so at this rate, I should be "normal" by the time I'm in my 90's!    Gosh, throw in all the years of gas-lighting to get past, too, the smear campaigns, and the politician-style denials, etc. etc. etc. and I guess I'm hoping for reincarnation?  Yes, at the least we have others on this site who can act as sounding boards for sanity / truth, and we can use those moments of validation from others outside of the situation to help get us there.