When people who suffer with BPD

[Windy9973]

My husband was recently diagnosed as BPD. Over the last month I have been trying to understand as much as I can about BPD. One thing I am curious about is my husband will often not remember things during times when he rages. He will say very hurtful things to me, threatens me, and destroy things in our home. He is a very smart and successful person. When he is not having "an episode" it would be hard to tell he has BPD to someone outside our home. He also is very rational then and will often talk about his behavior and has no issues admitting he has BPD. He will say he is sorry, but at the same time blames me in some way for what occurred. Anyway as he talks and discusses what occurred it is often wrong. He will leave out the parts where he said horrible things to me or the things he said I did to get caused him rage are not real. There are times he will ask me what occurred or why I am upset. I will tell him and he will sometimes say nothing at all occurred that I know did occur.

After one very bad episode he wanted to talk about it the next day. He started saying what occurred but it was not even close to what occurred. I told him that. He asked me what did occur and I described it in detail and he looked at my with shock and fear in eyes and face and said none of that happened and I didn't do or say that, but he said it weakly almost like he didn't believe he didn't do it. So I am confused.

My question is do you think when a person with BPD says they don't remember what occurred, involving something negative they did, are they being honest? Does he just not want to take responsibility or does he truly "black out". 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[hope2727]

Hi its hard to say. Every pwBPD is unique. My ex genuinely didn't remember some things but obviously did remember others. If I could do it over I would record a video of the rages I endured so he could see them. But that s just something I wish I had done. It is hard to say how my person would have reacted to seeing such video. However, I would have liked it for evidence to remind myself. Is your person getting any therapy?

[Windy9973]

Its interesting you mention a video. I was just thinking of maybe doing that earlier today. My rationale would be it would help him because if he truly didn't remember then he could see how he was acting and the things he was saying because when I tell him what occurred he does often looks shocked. He is being manipulative then I figured he will know he can't do that anymore. I dunno if it would be helpful or hurtful though. I may bring it up with him when he is in a good mood and see what he thinks.

[JoeBPD81]

Hi Anna9973

Who's to say? People with BPD have (in my experience) no effective boundary between thoughts and feelings. For my BPD-GF if she felt something, the conviction doesn't go away, even when she sees evidence with her own eyes of the contrary.

For instance, she is mad because I didn't call her this morning. We go together to her phone, and she sees the call log, and there are my calls. That doesn't change anything. It could help ME knowing I'm not going nuts, and remembering things wrong. But she can't change her mind, because the feeling is much stronger than reality. It's a big pill to swallow, but it explains many things.

I certainly understand your frustration, and we all have a great need for things to make sense. In time, more things will make sense, and it DOES make a difference in your life.

Next day of a rage, the hurt and the shame are so strong that they need to believe something that would help them get past that. "Anything to numb the pain". They know they don't have a firm grasp on reality, and that must be very scary for them. Prove it to them, it might be more hurtful than helpful, in my personal opinion.

I think they don't remember because locking that memory allows them to move forward. They instinctively know they can't process what really happened. The feel they are not good enough to change it, so it is better to lock it down and hope it will never happen again.

Also, when disregulated they lost contact with their true feelings and goals, it can be also seen as losing contact with reality. They are not a person, but a defense mechanism, the defense mechanish takes over everything. Like any of us when confronted with a deadly threat. It is possible that on that stage memories don't record adequatelly.

Think about a video camera. You shoot a video with a blue lense. Everything in the video will be blue. You know reality wasn't blue, but the recording will be blue forever. Disregulating is like a lense that distorts perception. It makes sense that what is recorded is also distorted.

Now, imagine that someone shows you a recording of a situation you remember one way, and you see that it happened another way completely. How would that affect you? It would be very scary, you'd think you have lost your mind, you would lose trust on yourself. Now you have to multiply that feeling by a lot, if you want to figure out how will it affect someone with BPD. They are extremelly sensitive, insecure, without a sense of self... .

We are a lot of users, maybe someone did just that, and they can tell us how it went. It would help you "be right", but will it help you live better?

[Tattered Heart]

It's hard to say for sure whether he actually forgets or if he is just avoiding admitting what he did wrong. If he is in an intense rage, it is very possible that he has no recollection. When people move through the crisis cycle their ability to comprehend decreases while their strength increases. It is part of the fight or flight response. His brain believes he is in intense fight mode so there is no need to be able to think, thus the brain is not remembering. This is where we get the term blind rage.

More importantly though when your H rages, how do you keep yourself safe? How do you respond?

[enlighten me]

Both my exs couldn't remember things that happened during rages.

I too have often wondered if it was true. I was reading about PTSD and studies into the hormone cortisol. Cortisol is the fight or flight hormone and is released during stressful events. One of the things it does during these times is blur how memories are stored. A car crash victim may not be able to clearly recall the event due to this. I have wondered if the same thing is at work that when they rage they release this hormone and block the memory from being stored.

Its hard to say though as my exgf would lie about everything so I cant be sure if she was lying about not remembering.

[once removed]

to chime in with the others, i too would say "its hard to say".

what i would recommend is learning to manage your responses to his episodes and keep yourself out of the line of fire.

remember the old adage "feelings = facts". in short, feelings and emotions color his perspective of these events. i think you wont get anywhere arguing with him about the facts/events or trying to prove anything to him.

it is helpful that he is open to communicating about these things and wants to hear your perspective. share your perspective when he asks. listen to his, and dont invalidate it. ask questions. when youve both shared, dont debate, but try to work toward solutions going forward.

[isilme]

Disassociation.  H has "forgotten" many things, from good AND bad times.  I'm not sure how much is his BPD and shame-avoidance, and how much is just a really bad memory, or one so rooted in his emotions he can't remember anything until he feels the same way he did at the time something happened.  It's like how some people have memories tied to smells, his are tied to emotions.  I've seen H hit a point sometimes in a rage that my father used to reach, but he's never gone "over" like my dad used to.

My dad would disassociate during his rages.  There would be a deadness behind his eyes and he would deny remembering any of his actions when he'd really lose it.  Those were very frightening times, because, before that point, you could maybe talk him down, but once that was reached, a belt would come out, or a wall would need plaster.  Later, he would come into my room, late at night, after hours of tears and hiding, and try to apologize, as if 8 year old me could grant him some sort of absolution for actions he claimed he could not even remember. 

I also employed some disassociation - I have factual memories of events, but still, sometimes do not have emotions tied to them,  I guess I am the opposite of my husband - he can't remember things without the emotion, I have turned them off as a form of protection, so my memories are often like a movie about another person. 

I know we all would like our pwBPD to see how they act, and make changes based on that information.  The problem seems to me to be the very fact they feel this behavior is okay in the first place, means it's been internally rationalized as our fault, and the level of anger is like a feedback loop to avoid the shame of facing their out of control emotional responses - it's ret-conned.  I was angry but now I can blame you for making me angry by asking why I am angry.  Showing them a video could very well trigger a lot of toxic shame, and anger at you for making them feel that shame.  I think overall the best we can do is identify ways to decrease the drama, anger, and outburts, and protect ourselves as much as possible. 

[Windy9973]

I didn't think showing a video would prove me right to my husband and we don't argue about the facts about occurred either. He once told me that I scare him because he knows I would not lie to him and the things I tell him he said or did he don't remember and sounds like the actions of a "crazy person". At the same time he always ask me what occurred and he himself attempts to analyzes what is going on when he calms down. When he is not acting out he also says he wants to change and I do believe he is struggling to do so at times.

I just mention the video because I was thinking it might help him. I was thinking of it from angle that we can't get better if we are not aware of what we do.

The video is not a good idea though. This morning he was in a good mood so I asked him about it. He said no reason to take a video because it doesn't matter what he does or says during his rages. He then drew me diagram like a hill. On the left bottom side a happy face and it was him in a good mood. At the top of the hill a "devil" and it was him in a rage. On the right bottom was a sad face and it was him after a rage. He then drew a light switch on the side of the hill going up. He said the main thing he wants to figure out is how not to hit the switch that starts him up the hill to feeling rage. Once he is in a rage nothing else really matters.

I thought about it and he's right. I still absorb everything he says and does in front me. I struggle tremendously not to do this. At the same time I'm reading he most likely doesn't mean the things he says or does during a rage. So he's right it doesnt matter. I thought about it more and realized I think part of the reason I wanted the video might be for my own benefit in a way. I feel horrible after he rages. I wanted him to understand that. To make him see how bad I feel or to really know what he is saying sorry for. He's says sorry although he doesn't remember. I thought about it and he's dealing with his own intense emotions Ill never get this from him and it doesn't truly matter anyway. Plus if he is remember and doesn't want to admit it then it doesnt matter either.

Some of your answers were very good though. I believe he does disassociates at times. I seen him just stare into space on occassion. He gets this glazed look and always after that he will explode and when he does its horrible episode. He also confided me in a story recently about beating a man outside a bar twenty years. He said he went almost "outside" his body and was thinking "I shouldn't be doing  this" as he watched himself keep beating the guy before some friends pulled him off. So think maybe that is disassociation as well. At the same time he has been admitting things to me lately and tells me about all these times he's purposely manipulated people, especially women he were with before we met, but then always adds but I would never do it to you. I love you but didnt love them. So really dont' know if he remembers or not as he acts out but agree that he needs to figure out how not to make that switch go off that makes him feel angry.


The comment about cortisol and fight or flight was interesting. I know when I been most scared I have trouble remember everything entirely. Not as bad as my husband who sometimes claims complete black outs but its just a bit foggy. Also, my husband started therapy but now stopped. He claims to have issues with where he was going and will find another place, but hasn't done it yet. He buy all these books about dbt, therapy, BPD etc and said he is trying to learn how to control himself better.

Before his diagnosis when he raged I sat or stood there scared out of my mind. These intense rages really just started over a year ago. I have no clue what set them off. He said he all these issues and even worse in his twenties well before he met me. When I met him and for about 8 years I didn't see anything wrong with him. He did have intense road rage and once in a while may get what seemed too upset at things that occurred in life. A little more than a year ago he started verbally and emotionally abusing me during intense rages. He started breaking things in our home on occasion. Taking irrationally, threatening, etc. So for last year I been bewildered, scared and maybe a few months ago extremely depressed and feeling hopeless and overwhelmed. I started crying over small things. I never really see any friends or family anymore and am just pretty isolated. Before all this I was always happy-go-lucky positive person.

A little over a month ago he was diagnosed with BPD. He says when he was in his twenties he would read the DSM trying to figure out what was wrong with him. He is in agreement that he has BPD after he was educated more about what it means. Since his diagnoses I feel much more hopeful. I still feel overwhelmed sometimes but to finally know what is going made me feel relieved. I been reading the book Stop Walking On Eggshells and this site and some videos online and articles. I am so shocked, but also a bit relieved in a way, that others are dealing with same thing. I still get shock as I read people talk about how their love one acts and the things they say and its nearly the same as my husband. I thought he was truly unique in what he was struggling with. Then I read how the non-BPD feels and its how I feel many times. Also, I only learned one main strategy and its how to best talk with a BPD. I was a bit cynical while reading it but decided I was going to use it anyway.

Well last week as my husband started to get upset I talked like the book I'm reading told me too and it worked! Never has anything worked. I could tell by his breathing, look in his eyes, ,and he kept clenching and unclenching fists and jaw that he was going to have a very intense rage episode, yet using the strategies I learned in how to talk to him he calmed down and nothing negative occurred during the rest of the day.

Also, I read how some recover. I think how he did act up until recent and I'm starting to have more hope. I still worry and feel sad that he may not get better but I am doing better than I was a few months ago.

I also learned some thing about myself from reading the Walking on Eggshells book. I think I am co dependent. I heard the word in the past but didnt think it applied to me. Now I do. Also, I always thought I had boundaries but after reading about what it really means and reflecting I think I don't enforce any boundaries when it comes to my husband. So I'm working on that. I packed a bag and put it in my car and told him that if he starts to talk disrespectful to me then I can't listen to what he says to me. That it causes me to feel helpless and scared so I will leave until he has have time to calm down. I told him that I will always come back and if he changes his disrepectful actions then I won't leave, but if he doesnt then I have to go and then can really listen to him when he talks to me in a respectful way. I told him this when he is in a good mood. I haven't had a chance to put it in action yet but plan on following thru no matter what to try and develop some boundaries. I'm still learning other ways best to help him and myself.

Ok I wrote a lot, but I have no one to talk to really and it really felt good to write some of that.

[enlighten me]

The video I don't think would help. My exgf once started having a go at me as she had made plans for a certain date and had told me about it. The date she had plans for I wasn't available to have our son and she went mad about how she had planned this for months and that I knew the date and had said it was ok. I tried pointing out that she had told me a different date but she wouldn't believe me. I then showed her the text with the different date and she got confused, Tried saying that's not what she sent, she went quiet trying to figure it out and then just left looking totally confused. She couldn't comprehend the facts not relating to her reality.

[Windy9973]

I think you are right enlighten me. I dont think it would work anymore. I think maybe he would be confused as your exgf was or even if he wanst it would just make him feel scared or nervous and nothing would come of it. He told me he knows I wouldn't lie to him and also ask what occurred during his rages. When I tell him he looks shock most of the time.

BPD is very confusing to me at times. I been trying to understand it more each day since the diagnoses, but still forget things I learn. I also keep learning new things so hopefully I will eventually truly understand it in detail.

[AskingWhy]

Windy9973, I would attribute the forgetting with the splitting one sees in pwBPD.

Splitting is a mechanism in many PDs where one sees "all white or all black" and no shades of gray.  pwBPD cannot be objective about a spouse.  They either love you or hate you.  

It is impossible for them to be upset with you and still love you.  They cannot say, "I love you but I did not like this thing that you did."

I know that does not make sense to nonBPDs.  pwBPD are like emotional children.

Not remembering the rages is very common.

Think of a very young child who is having a tantrum.  He rages and screams, his face turns red with rage, he will throw his toys, and he might even attack with fists.

In 20 minutes, though, the child is loving and wanting his toys again and wanting to eat dinner.  He has no recollection of the rage/tantrum.

This mechanism of splitting is at work in pwBPD.  When they rage they are in the moment and blinded by it.  They hate you and perhaps make threats of divorce.  After cooling off, perhaps the next day, they act as if nothing happened.

If hope this helps.  Ar least your H knows on a conscious level that he is BPD and that something is wrong with him.  That is a step in the right direction.