Slowing things down in dating

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hey guys,

So it has been about 2 or 3 years since break up, I can't recall.
Anyway, I have avoided any serious dating efforts because I have felt I have had tons of personal work to do.  So, I am now at a better place, more content with myself, all of me.

I am doing the darn online thing just because I don't do bars, or really chat with strangers in the grocery and such just to find out they are married, idk.  Meet ups didn't do it too well.  (Maybe I choose the wrong ones, idk.)

Anyway, my issue now is that the men I meet seem so emotionally needy.  I don't want the amount of attention that they are wanting to give so fast so easily.  The last guy I dated pointed out how he felt the roles of us were reversed.  Meaning he was very emotional and I kept reminding him that I wanted to take my time learning about one another and with the emotional stuff.  I feel like guys who know they want a long term relationship, enter into meeting me and treating me like a wife, whereas I want to build a friendship first. 

I really just want to learn boundaries for smoothly putting the breaks on things without hurting feelings and not getting misunderstood.  (one guy figured if I didn't talk daily that maybe I was talking to someone else. well... .maybe... .or maybe I am doing other stuff... .either way, imo, not his concern!)

[Sunfl0wer]

Hey guys,

So it has been about 2 or 3 years since break up, I can't recall.
Anyway, I have avoided any serious dating efforts because I have felt I have had tons of personal work to do.  So, I am now at a better place, more content with myself, all of me.

I am doing the darn online thing just because I don't do bars, or really chat with strangers in the grocery and such just to find out they are married, idk.  Meet ups didn't do it too well.  (Maybe I choose the wrong ones, idk.)

Anyway, my issue now is that the men I meet seem so emotionally needy.  I don't want the amount of attention that they are wanting to give so fast so easily.  The last guy I dated pointed out how he felt the roles of us were reversed.  Meaning he was very emotional and I kept reminding him that I wanted to take my time learning about one another and with the emotional stuff.  I feel like guys who know they want a long term relationship, enter into meeting me and treating me like a wife, whereas I want to build a friendship first. 

I really just want to learn boundaries for smoothly putting the breaks on things without hurting feelings and not getting misunderstood.  (one guy figured if I didn't talk daily that maybe I was talking to someone else. well... .maybe... .or maybe I am doing other stuff... .either way, imo, not his concern!)

[Turkish]

Sounds like a conflict between needs or wants here.  Most likely being of a similar age, I can sympathize with both points of view.  I think you are wise to take things slowly. 

Maybe it will help to talk about what you want? A goal might help center things. 

[Sunfl0wer]

Thank you for your reply Turkish.

What happened with my last date is he clearly had some difficulties sitting with his feelings.  (just pointing this out because I feel it relevant to this board)  I told him there were some things for me to ponder and I just needed to be allowed to "not decide" for a bit.  Well, he pushed for me to get committed after only 3 dates.  I was not ok with that.  When pushing me in that direction didn't work, he then pushed for me to break it off.  But I remained my stance of not wanting the pressure for that atm as I was not done digesting the info I was working on.  So he decided to end things.  He seemed unable to go 24 hrs not knowing where I stood.  But my reality was... .I literally needed time to digest some big crap he had going on.  

This guy I am now talking to seems to want to know what I am up to and checks in throughout the day.  I only just started texting him two days ago.  I really want guys who can relax and not smother me.

Maybe I just need to learn some phrases?  (I am so not used to dating so feel a bit dumb cause this seems a simple skill here)
So am thinking of being clearer like... .
It was nice stopping by your shop to say hi earlier today.  We should chat again on Thursday or so to see how our weekends are looking and if meeting up looks workable.

I rather not be limiting people to wait three days or so to text, but dealing with FOG over texting for me is feeling silly.
Idk, I don't want to be "controlling"  but what is happening is there turns out to be a flood of texting that interrupts my day and I don't feel comfy with that much attention from a stranger.  I rather build up the experiences organically vs them appearing needy for interactions with anyone.

What do you mean by a goal?
I tell them from the start that I am looking to make friends.  Not looking for a husband. I just want to learn how to date.  Kinda "pre dating" skills I feel I want under my belt because I am pretty shy in certain things and trying to learn to be more comfortable with me. 
So I guess that is my goal.

(Whereas I feel everyone elses goal so far is filling a spot in their lives that someone left them with that needs some spackling and I refuse to be spackle. :P)

[Reforming]

Hi Sunflower,

I can relate to your experience.

First of all Kudos for spending the time and effort on working on yourself.

It sounds like you have come a long way since your relationship ended.

From what you've said I think you are approaching dating in an emotionally healthy and adult way. Taking time to get know to know someone before you commit is important and appropriate.

A rushed desire for commitment would be a red flag for me and it's a common hallmark of PD relationships. From a male perspective I don't find your behaviour remotely unreasonable. Perhaps the two men you dated need to do some work on themselves... .

I think dating is a messy and complicated business and it can get even more so when we get a bit older with the added complication of children, merged families etc.

It's important to take time and move slowly. If there other person is mature and healthy they will want to do the same.

I think it's also really important to take some time and really work out the kind of person you would like to be with.

There's a good Ted Talk on this subject that's worth a watch

https://www.ted.com/talks/amy_webb_how_i_hacked_online_dating

Good luck and thanks for sharing.

Reforming

[once removed]

to be honest Sunfl0wer, based on what youre telling us, i dont hear much wrong in your approach.

not to be a downer, but the dating pool gets worse as we age. there are many more mismatches than matches. the neediness doesnt surprise me at all. i can tell you i tend to subscribe to your views, but i get insecure if im not being chatted to, and often over pursue, and i think im not alone in that.

i would ask point black if you consider yourself emotionally available. id ask if your ideals about when emotion enters in are too rigid. your answers can be "yes" and "no" respectively and youd still be running into this, but its important to take stock of. and youre communicating all of this, do i have that right?

I tell them from the start that I am looking to make friends.  Not looking for a husband. I just want to learn how to date.  Kinda "pre dating" skills I feel I want under my belt because I am pretty shy in certain things and trying to learn to be more comfortable with me.  

i think that there are plenty of people in the dating pool that share these goals. are you asking them about their goals when you tell them yours? are they communicating or telling you that youre on the same page?

[Sunfl0wer]

Hi Sunflower,

I can relate to your experience.

First of all Kudos for spending the time and effort on working on yourself.

It sounds like you have come a long way since your relationship ended.

From what you've said I think you are approaching dating in an emotionally healthy and adult way. Taking time to get know to know someone before you commit is important and appropriate.

Thank you for all the thoughtful words Reforming!  I have had to have so much patience and kindness with myself, it has been unbelievable.

(Not sure it is relevant and what folks recall of me, however, in the post relationship process I found out I have a severe dissociative disorder that was somewhat hidden and I have spent over a year in very productive work with an awesome trauma therapist who has helped me to navigate and embrace more of myself.  I am finding myself pretty consistent and solid lately and am ready to venture out some.)

A rushed desire for commitment would be a red flag for me and it's a common hallmark of PD relationships. From a male perspective I don't find your behaviour remotely unreasonable. Perhaps the two men you dated need to do some work on themselves... .

I think dating is a messy and complicated business and it can get even more so when we get a bit older with the added complication of children, merged families etc.

It's important to take time and move slowly. If there other person is mature and healthy they will want to do the same.

Thanks for the perspective, makes perfect sense.

... .

So….  rather than dating and analyzing the guy, I came up with an approach that feels most right for me.  Instead of looking for and collecting red flags on the guy, I am simply checking in with myself and my own integrity and seeing how I feel about me.  I am staying self focused intentionally.  

For example, sure, that first guy was emotionally needy and wanted to spend every free min he had making sure I was going to see him and reserved my time for him.  So instead of the persepective: “This guy is a pile of red flags, run!”  I am just doing and staying in touch with “Me” to my utmost and letting the chips fall where they may.  Oh, the example… So I know he wanted to spend time with me one Wed night.  Part of me was filled with passion for this guy and really wanted to meet up because we were having exciting conversations and all.  However, checking in with myself and all…  I also really wanted to remain balanced and thinking of what I would want two years from now… dropping life for a night of passion was not it... .was fleeting.  So I did tell him I felt like spending time at home watching a movie with my son instead.  That was also my truth and the one that sat right with more of myself than running off for a night of excitement.  So I guess rather than focusing on what I do not want in him, I am finding myself more at peace and ease with myself shifting the focus on self check ins... .looking to see and meditating on what is most right with me, my values, keeping my own integrity.

With the ex… it is Me that erroded over time as I slipped into a slow series of accomodating him in small ways that ended up adding up to me loosing myself in some ways.  So my approach this time around is to evaluate them less.  Evaluate Me more.  Red flags aside, imo, in the end... .the issue with me and my ex that I CAN control is Me, not him.  So long as I am having integrity with me... .my guess is that I will attract a higher level of maturity from others.  I also guess they will naturally weed themselves out some.

So while I am able to set boundaries on meet ups…  What I am curently struggling with is the texting... ugh!  It feels rude to set limits on how often someone texts.  I want conversations to feel natural not appointments and all. Humm... .

I think it's also really important to take some time and really work out the kind of person you would like to be with.

Tbh, I actually am not sure I need to work this out quite yet.  I feel I am being honest saying I want friends so it is irrelevant who I will want to be with long term.  I am not ready to be deciding on long term relationships, imo.  I really want to learn about me and how I am with these experiences and assume I will learn what I need to by my pre dating ventures.  I also think it is important that I am ok alone as well.  That I can be content not coupling. (My son is chronically disabled and it complicates things.  Also that is my personal ethos anyway to be ok solo.)  So I really do not need to work out who I want to be with other than sharing my time with friends... .for now.  And I am clear with what I want in friends... .consideration, kindness, enjoyable moments, mutual respect.

There's a good Ted Talk on this subject that's worth a watch
 
https://www.ted.com/talks/amy_webb_how_i_hacked_online_dating

Good luck and thanks for sharing.

Reforming

I do so appreciate the thoughtful kindness in replies here.  It is a huge help in me processing my thoughts!  I have to run to work now but expect to return to reply to Once Removed as well and also watch the Ted cause I love those anyways. :D

[Sunfl0wer]

ok, can spit this out before heading out... .will watch Ted later  

to be honest Sunfl0wer, based on what youre telling us, i dont hear much wrong in your approach.

not to be a downer, but the dating pool gets worse as we age. there are many more mismatches than matches. the neediness doesnt surprise me at all. i can tell you i tend to subscribe to your views, but i get insecure if im not being chatted to, and often over pursue, and i think im not alone in that.

Thanks for the perspective, this helps.  I think part of the issue is that in online dating guys do not get chatted to with the same frequency as females so the fact that I am being open to them, they seem like overly enthusiastic as the results for many online is that gals just fade away, blow them off, and think nothing of it vs sending a brief “I don’t think we will be a good match.”  I think they are being led on a wee bit and somewhat over eager at me being kind.

i would ask point black if you consider yourself emotionally available. id ask if your ideals about when emotion enters in are too rigid. your answers can be "yes" and "no" respectively and youd still be running into this, but its important to take stock of. and youre communicating all of this, do i have that right?

I think that there are plenty of people in the dating pool that share these goals. are you asking them about their goals when you tell them yours? are they communicating or telling you that youre on the same page?

Point blank: No
I am NOT emotionally available for a boyfriend, period.  
I have a dissociative disorder (OSDD) and atm, that is my priority to continue to heal and grow. (I actually surprised us both and did disclose this to that last guy and we did well with it.  It became a healing tool for us both.  Ironically, many insights and perspectives we shared were quite mutually beneficial.) I find it imperative that I explore myself and interactions with others while not emotionally tied down in any way.  Until I have enough interpersonal experiences under my belt and understand what it is like for me to try dating and being intimate... .(not just meaning physical stuff here) ... then I will be able to determine if I would like more out of the opposite sex.  Atm however, I am pretty secure and stable in the idea that I am great to make some male friends, and that is it... .nothing long term.

So yea, I can see how guys do not believe this.  They feel that I am simply being shy and they will bring me out of my shell so I can become their long term material.

... .

What I need to learn now is texting boundaries,
How do I get guys to text less without sounding rude?

There is a really smitten gentleman who keeps texting me.  My heart crushes to think to tell him:  Hey, I got a lot going on today. How about we catch up later on in the week.

I know he will be devastated.
I also know his feelings are his responsibility, his "bucket" to manage.
Yet, this is where I currently struggle.
He seems so lonely and wanting to check in often.

Humm... .
I'm thinking of being honest...
Hey, I really enjoy texting you and how we chat.  Yet, I am really wanting my predating experience to be one that I am learning balance also.  I am struggling here to keep my focus on family and work more.  I love texting, but will not be able to do so as often.  idk, that sounds lame 

[Sunfl0wer]

Ok, so I couldn't stand leaving the guy hanging there.  He made a thoughtful kind invitation to meet. (considering things that we have discussed)

So I sent him the following:  Good morning, thanks for the invite!  I'm needing to focus better on work/family stuff today so likely not texting.  Not personal, I enjoy our texting and expect to meet up again.  Just I am also practicing balance.  Hopefully that makes sense, if not feel free to ask.

I hate this.  I can feel that I feel responsible for his feelings here.  This is where I cringe at myself.

[Sunfl0wer]

Omg! Thank goodness! 
Relief!

He sent:
No, that is not a problem.  Text me whenever you want today, tomorrow, or a few days.  I understand.  You express yourself kindly.  Bye for now.  I am at your fingertips.

Me: Thank you greatly for your kindness.  That was very hard for me so it means a lot.  Ok... .ttyl :D

Him:  You are growing.  Great job, we grow when we face our fears

... .

Whew! He made it friken easy on me! yay!
Next time idk, so I do still need to learn tho!
I'm glad he listens and gets where I am at and what I am doing.
**Happy dance**


 

[Fie]

Hello Sunflower,


His response was thoughtful I think ! But then again, your message also was.

Concerning online dating, I have the same issues with it as you, and a few more. I f.e. think there are a lot of personality disordered people on online dating :-P

There are indeed a lot of guys out there who are quite pushy. They expect you to behave as if you've known them for ages. I really don't think there is a point in texting every day if we have only met a few times. Some men also expect you to go play a 'wife' role very quickly. I suppose that with the women it's the same.
 
As for the texting... .Having had a BPD upbringing, I have learned to always react quickly (and in the 'right' way). So my first intuitive reaction to a text message is take my phone and answer it, immediately. But that just doesn't feel good. So I have come to the conclusion that I need to listen to what feels good for me - like you are also doing. Sometimes I answer them - hey, I don't have a lot of time, I'll answer you later on. Sometimes I only answer them the next day. I have found that that sometimes slows down the tempo of their texting. It makes them realize that I also have other things to do, without me having to tell them literally. If they are emotionally intelligent, they get that. It also allows me to filter out the ones I *don't* need: men who get angry when I don't reply as fast as they want, men who clearly panick because they start bombing me with messages, ... .

Or sometimes I just tell them, texting so much doesn't feel good, we don't even know each other. Let's just meet each other in a few days instead.

I think a lot of people are lonely, and hence they are messaging like crazy with someone they hardly know. I understand that and I empathize, but I don't think it's up to me to go cure them. Been there, done that  :-)

[Sunfl0wer]

Thank you Fie,
Hearing perspective really does help here guys, thanks.  Yes, I am encountering some pushy guys.  This guy I’m referring to, we met, casual, just to see if we should continue to chat.  He went and took his profile down after meeting him.  I was not happy about that, but heck, I wasn’t going to mention it even.  Well, I noticed last night that it was back up and running.  Weird what he must be going through in his head.

I like how you have learned to sort out how to approach this.
I rather meet or talk sometimes because with the first guy E, we “accidentally” were building an emotional connection before having many experiences together, so yea, things were accidentally getting intense.  I say accidental because I was aware of this but was not sure how to slow things down.  (Well, he did not believe me when I said I was not available, so when he realized it in my behavior... .  he was hurt.)

Anyways, I’m rambling now. 
... .Just thanks guys.

[Fie]

Hey Sunflower,

I am also thinking ... .from your posts I gather that you are a very empathic person. Wonderful. Except that ... .maybe you'd want to bear in mind that showing too much empathy in online dating could result in drawing in NPD/BPD. I don't know. Maybe I have become too suspicious over the years.
But they do seek out empathic people, as you know. And the message you sent to that one guy was, well ... .empathic  :-)

Personally, but hey, that's my opinion, you don't owe anyone an explanation on why you don't answer to someone's message straight away. Just, because you don't feel like answering it straight away. That should be enough. But I know, that's not the way we were raised... .

Think about it. Why should we over-worry and fuss about hurting other people's feelings in online dating. Their feelings should not be involved already after a few messages and one date. And if they are ... .I'd guess that might be a red flag.

If I were you, I'd take it easy ... .not on those men but on yourself.

[Lucky Jim]

Hey SunflOwer,  It seems like you are more interested in a friendship, yet these guys are under the impression that you are interested in a r/s.  Is that a fair observation?  I would suggest that there's no obligation to hang out with or text anyone with whom you don't feel comfortable.  The bottom line, in my view, is what works for you.  Suggest you strive to be authentic.  Try to figure out what you are looking for: friendship or romance.  Either alternative is valid to me, depending on your current state of mind.  Does this make sense?

LuckyJim

[Sunfl0wer]

Hey Sunflower,

I am also thinking ... .from your posts I gather that you are a very empathic person. Wonderful. Except that ... .maybe you'd want to bear in mind that showing too much empathy in online dating could result in drawing in NPD/BPD. I don't know. Maybe I have become too suspicious over the years.
But they do seek out empathic people, as you know. And the message you sent to that one guy was, well ... .empathic  :-)

I think this is a good challenge for me to consider.  I’m glad you brought it to my awareness and I’m going to keep remaining aware of it to see what I think fully about it.  So far though as I did ponder what you bring up... . I am seeing my “empathetic” replies to him as ones of compassion.  So it is true to my values to be ok dealing with folks and myself from a place of compassion, so since it means integrity to my values, then I am going to continue to behave compassionately when it feels right to me to do so.  

So then, where does that end?  Ok, so I am thinking that at the point my “empathy” is “too much” is when I am deciding to be empathetic based on any fear, obligation or guilt.  I feel this is where my empathy can end.  At that point, can put self compassion first or equal... .to compassion for “other.”  If I cannot, then maybe it is time to rethink my behavior.

Yet, imo, if I desire to be empathetic, compassionate, and I can do so with no FOG, then imo, I am at peace within me, this is a good thing.  (Values, boundaries and FOG all stuff I learned here, , thank you very much BPDF, )

Personally, but hey, that's my opinion, you don't owe anyone an explanation on why you don't answer to someone's message straight away. Just, because you don't feel like answering it straight away. That should be enough. But I know, that's not the way we were raised... .

I actually do like having the practice expressing myself to these men.  I find that everytime I am expressing a boundary and clarifying what I want out loud to them, that I am learning about myself, defining myself, getting more secure for myself.  I am doing it more for me, than for them at this point... .paying close attention to what sits well within me.  I find it healing to be able to confront them, and lay my reality down for all to see, observe how they respond and what will transpire each time I do so.  

Maybe as I get to know myself more, the value of expressing these things will wane? Idk... for now it feels right.

I agree though that there is also the idea of being mindful of balance, and ensuring I am not in a state of worry or such and making it about them at this point.

Thanks for helping me think things through!

[Sunfl0wer]

Hey SunflOwer,  It seems like you are more interested in a friendship, yet these guys are under the impression that you are interested in a r/s.  Is that a fair observation?  I would suggest that there's no obligation to hang out with or text anyone with whom you don't feel comfortable.  The bottom line, in my view, is what works for you.  Suggest you strive to be authentic.  Try to figure out what you are looking for: friendship or romance.  Either alternative is valid to me, depending on your current state of mind.  :)oes this make sense?
LuckyJim

Humm... .yes, they assume I am playing hard to get or something.  They assume I am playing a game.  Or they appear to be projecting onto me what they want, with less listening to who I am in front of them.  

I find it “fair” that with the culture of dating the way it is, that I am to expect lots of guys may not be used to encountering someone who is being genuine and as open as I am.  So I kind of feel that I should be expecting them to “not get me” straight off... .if that makes sense.

As for the guy in the OP that we texted... .I did want to stay in touch with him as a friend and hang occassionally.  We had a fun time hanging out.  (We were not romantic) And I expect to want to again, just... .I don’t need to talk to him daily.  He is being respectful thus far since this text... . we will have to see if he can really handle friends.  Some seem to think they can, but I can see their emotions slowly ungluing at it too.  (Not to be callous yet... .Not my job tho, their job to protect their hearts).

I know what I am looking for.
Friends first.  If we decide to get “romantic” then that comes later, or we can simply remain friends.  I do not think the two need to be mutually exclusive.  I am behaving like a friend, being clear, and not leading guys on.  It is not my fault if they think a date at someones workshop where we are simply chatting and eating lunch... .means he thinks we have long term relationship potential.  When I feel the guy is making more of things than I am comfortable with, I point blank, state where I am at again.  I cannot accuse people of or convince people to not be projecting, in denial, etc... .not my job.  I’m just trying to figure out Me atm, I actually tell them this... .I tell them I am dating because I have some awkwardness and need to socialize with males better to learn about me, and hence am not available for a relationship.

... .

So I think I have come up with a way to help keep a “distance” and help them frame things more as friends. Feel free to let me know what you (ya’ll) think. My next friend “date” is tonight.  We both have a goal of running a half marathon, so we are meeting to jog, that is it, then going home.  I am thinking that keeping the enviornment more friend like, less date like, will make a huge difference here.
(Or maybe jogging sweaty bodies panting for breath will backfire? )

First guy, we behaved more like lovers from the very start.  Very intense conversations (non sexual) going on even before meeting up, so it was hard to back off after that.  After a few dates, I learned some things about him that made me screech breaks on stuff.

Now I am learning to be more friends first, solidify that aspect.

I am sad I lost the first guy as a friend.  Had we not ever gotten intimate, I feel like he could have remained friends with me.  We had the most excellent intriguing conversations.  Our darn conversations tho were so amazing, that it fostered an intimacy since we both got turned on by our minds, .  So that was a tricky one, eh.

[Fie]

Hi hi 

Do I get it right that you are a person who likes to clearly know what she's at, 'boxing' things ? Like, now I am dating because I want to find a partner, or, now I am dating because I want to find a friend / become less awkward with men ?

I am asking because I am like that  :-)

I have found however, that most people (men? I only date men, so I don't know  about  the women) compartimentalise less. They do not have this fix idea of 'only friends' or 'no one night stands', etc. Often their profile itself mentions something in the line of 'I am open to friends, finding the love of my life and everything in between' etc. So I think a lot of people we get involved with, already feel the same like you : friends first, and who knows, maybe more after that. Just to make sure that also the men who are only looking for something serious right away are also on the same page as you, you could mention on your profile something like 'I am interested in becoming friends first, and let's see from there', or so.

Like that you do not have to worry about communicating that anymore, since it's clear from the start ?