Are there "Degrees" or categories of BPD?

[PeteWitsend]

Hi everyone.  I wonder if anyone had any feedback or recommended reading on this topic generally.

I sometimes wonder if there are "degrees" to which one can be BPD or have characteristics of it.  My BPDw has generally gotten "better" in terms of owning up to negative behavior, occasionally, and even sometimes apologizing.  Additionally, her dysregulations seem to have gotten a little less frequent and not lasted as long... .gives me hope.

From learning more about how my uBPDw's parents act, I see where she gets it from so-to-speak.  They're all extremely sensitive toward slights, and perceive them in what seems to be innocuous comments.  Basically they're the opposite of the word "easygoing."  It gives me some hope for the future to the extent I understand that BPD characteristics can be "learned" by otherwise "normal" people; perhaps over time she can "unlearn" some of this.

Thoughts? 

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[PeteWitsend]

In the wikipedia entry on BPD, there's a section on Millon's Subtypes.  I don't know what additional work has been done - if any - to explore this. 

My uBPDw fits "Petulant" almost to a T, but not much in common with some of the other subtypes. 

[isilme]

It's definitely a spectrum, and your pwBPD can move along that spectrum as internal turmoil and outside stimuli affect them. 

[once removed]

as isilme said, its a spectrum disorder (from low to high), as you said, there are millons subtypes, there are lawsons subtypes (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61982.0), there is "high and low functioning"; there have been lots of efforts at categorizing and characterizing how BPD manifests.

for reference, a lot of the partners and exes on this site (not all) are, even if extreme, low enough on the spectrum that they would not be diagnosed.

there is hope whether your partner is on the high end or the low end of the spectrum; theyre just different circumstances. if your wife is lower on the spectrum, reapproaching your steps in the dance can make a huge difference, and she may be more inclined to follow your lead.

she may or may not unlearn being sensitive to perceived slights (i can be sensitive myself, and that wont change, but i either communicate, manage, consider alternate perspectives, whatever), and there are going to be times where you say the "wrong" thing despite your intentions. there are ways of navigating when that happens that can lighten your burden, not make things worse, not lead to circular arguments, or even better than that.  

is she seeing a therapist?

[Highlander]

Hi PeteWitsend,

First of all a big congrats on the success your BPDw has already shown while you both take the difficult journey towards her hopeful recovery. 

My H was once diagnosed with BPD and his mother has undiagnosed BPD/NPD. My H is a success story, in which, he has recovered.  Hearing your story of beginning to see your BPDw's traits fade was exactly what I experienced as my H began to show signs of recovery.  It can't be easy on them, their reactions to their emotions have been embedded in them since early childhood - It's habit.

You have every reason to suggest there is hope.

Different degrees of BPD?  For me, I relate to the 'low' or 'high' or 'combined' functioning models but always off to the side, I try and incorporate the statistics that state that 75% of BPD sufferers also have NPD.  Having known a few NPD sufferers in my life that don't also have BPD, I can distinguish between the two quite easily.

My H was LF BPD but luckily he was part of the 25% of BPD sufferer's that didn't have NPD.  This meant that unless he was in a rage, he was honest, remorseful and would own up to his actions leading to acceptance of the diagnosis and acknowledgement he needed to work hard to recover. 

Upon diagnosis, my H was full blown BPD, portraying 9 traits on a regular basis and now his doctors have acknowledged he now shows no regular traits (except depression) and hence is in BPD recovery.   If anyone can vouch for that... .it's his partner... .me and they embraced me in the recovery process and always invited me to parts of his therapy and diagnosis's.  After all, its the partners that see the BPD more than anyone else.

This took a number of years and there were a number of setbacks that led to him feeling ashamed and useless.  However, he never gave up but it did help him to be told by myself and his therapists that although he had a step back, he had to recognise that he had just taken 5 steps forward. 

Nowadays, on rare occasions, particularly stressful ones, a trait may appear seemingly from no-where.  All I have to say know is "Hey that's splitting" or "That's a BPD trait" and he acknowledges it straight away and apologies saying "Sorry.  I forgot my DBT or my mindfulness therapy".  My H also feels proud when I acknowledge his achievements.  I am regularly reminding him of his good health, especially in stressful situations.  When I see he is feeling 'challenged', I commend him on his efforts to stay calm and remind him that had this 'stressful' situation occurred a number of years ago, he would likely have not stayed so calm and it could very well have ended in him raging, storming off or at time,s a visit to the hospital etc.  I get the most beautiful smile of pride from him during times like this and it reminds myself that the journey has been well worth it.

I have read opinions that the higher on the end of a spectrum a BPD sufferer may be, the less chance of recovery.  Well my H was pretty full blown - it was life threatening and I had to quit my studies to care for him full-time for many years.   In my experience, his recovery had everything to do with the fact that he did not have NPD as well.  If he had of raged and then not shown remorse for them or worse continued to blame me for everything, even after his rages had finished, he had little chance of acknowledgement of BPD and recovery.

On the other hand my HF BPD/NPD MIL has most of the HF BPD's behaviours but the NPD side of her means that she doesn't believe anything is wrong with her, even when we have managed to, on a number of occasions, caught her our on her lies, gaslighting and triangulation red handed!  We hold little hope for her to ever recognise her BPD/NPD, so much so my H has given up on having her in our lives.

[PeteWitsend]

as isilme said, its a spectrum disorder (from low to high), as you said, there are millons subtypes, there are lawsons subtypes (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61982.0), there is "high and low functioning"; there have been lots of efforts at categorizing and characterizing how BPD manifests.

for reference, a lot of the partners and exes on this site (not all) are, even if extreme, low enough on the spectrum that they would not be diagnosed.

there is hope whether your partner is on the high end or the low end of the spectrum; theyre just different circumstances. if your wife is lower on the spectrum, reapproaching your steps in the dance can make a huge difference, and she may be more inclined to follow your lead.

she may or may not unlearn being sensitive to perceived slights (i can be sensitive myself, and that wont change, but i either communicate, manage, consider alternate perspectives, whatever), and there are going to be times where you say the "wrong" thing despite your intentions. there are ways of navigating when that happens that can lighten your burden, not make things worse, not lead to circular arguments, or even better than that.  

is she seeing a therapist?

she's been to a few T's.

I suspect the pattern is usually the same, and would follow what she did when we tried MC : she goes on and on about how horrible her parents are, her MIL, me, etc. in long monologs, blending events, times and places together.  

if/when the T's turn the mirror around on her, and ask why she reacted that way, or why she did X in response to Y, she'll initially be receptive, and listen.  then on f/u visits have prepared a "response" to that, now explaining why what she did was okay, and she was "forced" to scream/yell/badger/accuse/etc. It's never her fault, she's never responsible for her actions.

if the T's continue more or less validating her opinions, she'll stick with them for a little long.  if not, she'll move on.  

I do think the T's may have helped a little.

one of the more key observations from MC was one T who ID'd her jealousy and frequent accusations of infidelity.  she didn't like that, and would dig in her heels and argue ad nauseum about how it isn't true and she isn't unfair to me, but in practice she stopped doing it.

other things that have helped:
I've found that ending conversations when the dysregulations and wild accusations start is more helpful.  "Bye, I'm going to the bar.  If you can calm down, we can discuss this further.  if not, I'll leave for longer next time."

also, reassuring her that I love her and it's just an argument goes a long way to nipping wild episodes in the bud (not easy for me to do because my first instinct is to fight back)

her going back to work and starting her career seems to have helped the most though.  she has some confidence in herself and doesn't seem paranoid and terrified that I'm going to leave her every second of the day, and that makes time with her more pleasant.

I've also found knowing when to pick battles helps.  and - like the result of her accusing me of infidelity less - I drop arguments over who was right, if in practice I'm getting the result I hoped for.

[PeteWitsend]

Thanks for sharing your story, Highlander.

unlike your H, I don't think my uBPDw would ever openly admit to having an issue, though in some surprisingly vulnerable moments she has, although she'll deny it later.  very confusing.

I do think you have to have hope it will get better - even if it doesn't resolve itself completely - because otherwise you might as well walk away.

[Zen606]

Yes, there are many variation of the borderline experience. The types and behaviors that Lawson describes in her Understanding the borderline mother book are general. Someone mentioned spectrum and this is the correct word to describe BPD, because experiences and individual differences have much to do with the behaviors displayed. The DSM V gives criteria for the disorder, but this can be modified and thus the variance, the spectrum -- from a full blown criteria to traits, some subtle.
I hope this helps.
Zen606

[once removed]

other things that have helped:
I've found that ending conversations when the dysregulations and wild accusations start is more helpful.  "Bye, I'm going to the bar.  If you can calm down, we can discuss this further.  if not, I'll leave for longer next time."

be careful of this, for a number of reasons:

1. keep the fear of abandonment in mind
2. taking a time out and stepping away when things get out of hand is good, and it can help give you peace. can you see how the way youre wording it might sound like a bit of a punishment and a threat?

[PeteWitsend]

be careful of this, for a number of reasons:

1. keep the fear of abandonment in mind
2. taking a time out and stepping away when things get out of hand is good, and it can help give you peace. can you see how the way youre wording it might sound like a bit of a punishment and a threat?

yes.

I understand my response is less than charitable, and still puts the blame on her.  I've worked on it, and will continue to do so.  

at least I have made it clear I won't do it lightly; the times I've used it are when she's dropped any pretension toward discussion and is fully screaming and swearing at me.  I think then it's fair to put the blame where it lies, while at least making it clear I am coming back.  I've set a boundary, and want her to know where it is.

It's hard for me to swallow my anger at that point completely and not call her out for going too far.