How do I recognize emotions in my pwBPD early enough to validate them?

[Teno]

I'm just trying to get my head around validation:

What if you’re aware of your childhood wounds, and come to terms and deal with it. Only to realize most of your relationship conflict also stems from your spouses childhood wounds. Almost like, I’m not fighting you, but your parents?

Seems like our inner child's memory comes out in our interactions especially when we are stressed and with the people we've emotionally bonded (triggers).  Sometimes we are left with: what, how, why. I just happen to be here? We've all these things triggering us and I guess in that state you're fighting a child's emotional intelligence.

My thought: So in essence you should validate your spouse's feelings that was never met as a child and in return your bond could strengthen from a fight that was illogical to start with.

How do I recognize those emotions in my pwBPD early enough so I can validate them?

[Turkish]

This exchange with my former mate wasn't helpful:

Me: "I'm not your father."

She: "I know you're not my father!"

Fight continued... .

During the break up:

She: "You abandoned me! It felt just like my father!"

Me: *speechless* I always knew it

Can you give an example of where you think you are stuck?

[HappyChappy]

I'm just trying to get my head around validation:

What if you’re aware of your childhood wounds, and come to terms and deal with it. Only to realize most of your relationship conflict also stems from your spouses childhood wounds.

Interesting topic. OK that sound like you've dealt with your past, but your BPD wants your help dealing with hers. But as we know a BPD is wired differently so will continually use their past to gain attention or sympathy.  My BPD had the hardest possible life of anyone on the planet. We would validate with the "Oh that's terrible" but her story didn't match with her sisters accounts. How do you validate a moving story or even a false story ? I would suggest some of the time someone with BPD maybe just want narcssistic supply, attention as much as validation. What do you think ?

Surely validation comes from common consensus, so forums or groups of friend are well placed to validate. But someone with BPD often wants you to validate invalid things, which we should not. Like coming for a cigarette with them.

You asked  how do I recognise early enough to validate. Do you have some examples, that might help. But I learn't a lot about validating on this forum, because as children of BPD we tend to have good levels of empathy, which helps in validating. But maybe you could give us some specifics of what needed validating, or an argument you had.

 

[Teno]

Me: *speechless* I always knew it

Thanks Turkish, If I understand you correctly, there is no validation needed, but to invalidate her memory will move it from a password to "you think I'm stupid" fight.

Me: "I did not change your PW but I can help you unlock your computer. You changed the PW i gave you, can you remember your new password?"
She: "You changed my password to something stupid I can't remember!"
Fight continued... .
During the break up:
She: "You always change the passwords! It felt you changed my password, try this one!"
Me: *Computer unlocked and I'm speechless* Thinking" I always knew you changed it."

I would suggest some of the time someone with BPD maybe just want narcissistic supply, attention as much as validation.

I somehow deleted my original reply and will reply with more detail and a example. My thoughts are, what causes that need for the narcissistic supply?

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Teno, 

My thought: So in essence you should validate your spouse's feelings that was never met as a child

Great thought! And very much right on target! 

Now to ask the question:
How does one do this?

I heard a great illustration that has stuck with me. There was a castle with a locked gate across the driveway entrance. A person approached the gate, yelling and screaming and rattling the gate, ready to fight and knock down the gate. The person was angry. When the owner came out and heard the person yelling and throwing insults, he unlocked the gate so that the gates swung open the next time the person rattled them. Since there was no more resistence, the wind went out of the sails so to speak, and the anger died down quickly.

What ideas or examples do you have that can show how you might be able to validate your W?

 
Wools

[HappyChappy]

My thoughts are, what causes that need for the narcissistic supply?

If someone has no empathy, they tend to think the world evolves around them, so they expect to be centre of attention. But NPD/BPD also have a sense they are epic, very special, so again they expect others to recognise that.

[Turkish]

Teno,

Dr.  Craig Childress summarizes the NPD BPD pathologies well. 

Lost,

What's been going on the last two days?

The Dr. Childress recommendation is good.  He just posted this on his Facebook page.  It's a good summary of what you may be dealing with.


This Sunday I will be on Kristi Beck's show, Mommy Interrupted to answer all your questions.

https://www.facebook.com/mommyinterruptedradioshow/

If you haven't already sent your questions to Kristi, send them along.

The attachment-related pathology of "parental alienation" is created in the personality pathology of your ex-spouse.  Their personality pathology was created in their own childhood attachment trauma that led to their overwhelming feelings of core self-inadequacy.

The core beliefs of the narcissistic and borderline personality are that, "I am fundamentally inadequate as a person, and I will be rejected (abandoned) because of my inadequacy."

The narcissistic personality tries to ward off their deep and primal feelings of profound inner emptiness caused by their fundamental inadequacy-of-being by adopting a narcissistic veneer of grandiose superiority.  They devalue others to minimize the threat posed by rejection and to elevate themselves relative to the devalued other... ."I'm not inadequate; YOU are."

At their core, they are a fragile and inadequate little child.  They expand and roar to terrorize us because they are a frightened little child, a hurt and abused child who is terrified and alone and inadequate.

Puncture the narcissistic defense with criticism or rejection, and they collapse into the dark abyss of their core-self inadequacy, triggering a narcissistic rage in which they seek to restore their narcissistic defense against their profound inner emptiness, by making YOU the inadequate person who is being rejected.

Narcissistic personality: "I'm not the inadequate one, you are.  I'm not the rejected one, you are."

The borderline personality, on the other hand, is more psychologically exposed. The borderline personality does not have the narcissistic defense of grandiosity to ward off the inner emptiness of their core-self inadequacy.  The borderline personality feels the pain of their fundamental inadequacy constantly.  So they need constant - constant - reassurances of love from the attachment figure in order to ward off a collapse into the abyss of their inner emptiness and psychological fragmentation.

The borderline personality creates constant drama to acquire the continual attention and involvement of the attachment figure that's needed to ward off the collapse into the abyss of inner emptiness and psychological fragmentation.  Even minor failures by the attachment figure to provide the attention and involvement needed to ward off the collapse into the immensely painful abyss of inner emptiness and psychological fragmentation are met with a borderline rage; tantrums of venomous anger and depressive collapses into despair.

Life with the narcissist is hard. Their vacancy of inner substance creates an empty intimacy in the marriage, and their devaluing of others to support their narcissistic defense leads to the continual emotional and psychological abuse of their spouse as being inadequate.  Eventually, the normal-range spouse has had enough.  The normal-range spouse can no longer endure the profound emptiness of the relationship and the constant emotional and psychological abuse from the narcissistic spouse.

The narcissist thereby creates the very thing they most fear - rejection by the attachment figure ("I am fundamentally inadequate as a person, and I'm going to be rejected because of my inadequacy".

The rejection of the divorce triggers the collapse of the narcissistic personality into the abyss of their core-self inadequacy, and they then seek to restore their narcissistic defense (and get revenge on the "inadequate" attachment figure) by using the child as a weapon and a tool to make it the normal-range targeted parent who is the rejected and inadequate parent (person/(spouse)... ."I'm not the inadequate one, you are.  I'm not the rejected one, you are."

Similarly, the spouse of the borderline personality eventually becomes exhausted by the intense emotional neediness and constant drama created by the borderline spouse.  The borderline personality thereby also creates the very thing they fear - abandonment by the attachment figure because of the fundamental inadequacy of the borderline personality.

The borderline personality responds by taking sole possession of the coveted children, both as a symbol that the borderline parent is not inadequate but is instead the ideal, all-wonderful, adored and never-to-be-abandoned parent (person/(spouse), and also to engage the continual attention and involvement of the (abandoning) ex-spouse who can never fully divorce (abandon) the borderline spouse as long as the borderline parent has full possession of the children, and because of all the drama created surrounding custody and visitation with the children.  The continual drama created surrounding custody and visitation forever requires the constant focus of the ex-spouse on the borderline personality parent-spouse.

The borderline personality is a master at manipulation.  And the quickest way to achieve sole possession of the children - irrespective of court orders for child custody - it through an allegation of child abuse to CPS.  The mere allegation results in an investigation that immediately terminates the targeted parent's involvement with the children.  The borderline personality parent manipulates CPS to achieve immediate sole possession of the children. 

During the three to six months of CPS investigation, the borderline parent works their manipulative psychological control on the children, so that by the end of the CPS investigation the post-divorce "parental alienation" process is well under way.

In some (many) cases, the borderline parent will use the children to interfere with the new remarriage of the ex-spouse by having the children reject the new spouse (often with the allegation that the targeted parent isn't spending enough one-on-one time with the children, and that's why the children are rejecting the targeted parent).  This is designed to make the targeted parent choose between the new marriage and the children, thereby disrupting the bonding in the new marriage.

The narcissistic and borderline personalities (they are variants of the same core) are the products of childhood emotional and psychological abuse that created the core beliefs:  I am fundamentally inadequate as a person, and I will be rejected (abandoned) because of my inadequacy.  They are psychologically and emotionally abused children who are all grown up. 

Their love and bonding system - the attachment system - is damaged by the psychological trauma of their childhood. They are incapable of navigating the complexity of adult intimacy, because they are abused children all grown up.  They fail at intimacy, they are rejected and abandoned, and they collapse into the trauma of their abuse histories - their core self inadequacy and their defense against the abyss of their inner emptiness and despair.

They use the child and create the conflict as a cry for help;  ":)on't abandon me to the abyss of my profound inner emptiness."

The pathology of "parental alienation" represents the trans-generational transmission of attachment trauma from the childhood of the narcissistic/(borderline) parent to the current family relationships, mediated by the personalty pathology of the allied narcissistic/(borderline) parent that is itself a product of this parent's childhood attachment trauma.

This is an attachment-related pathology, requiring professional expertise in the attachment system.  This is a personality disorder related pathology, requiring professional expertise in the development and manifestation of personality disorder pathology in family relationships. This is a family relationship pathology, requiring professional expertise in family systems dynamics.  This is a trauma pathology, requiring professional expertise in the trans-generational transmission of developmental trauma.

Children and families experiencing "parental alienation" (AB-PA) represent a special population (a professional designation) who require specialized professional knowledge and expertise to competently assess, diagnose, and treat.

Craig Childress, Psy.D.
Clinical Psychologist, PSY 18857

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[Teno]

Mommy Interrupted to answer all your questions.

What ideas or examples do you have that can show how you might be able to validate your W?

Thank you for that, scary read!

This is something my T said and this is my understanding anyway. My uNPD MIL would've said to my W as a child: You can't wear your hair out to the shop. The child would've protested and wanted her own way with wearing her hair. Fine that is what the mother wants. The twist comes: The mother does not want to be the bad guy for saying NO and turns it back on her child for choosing a bad hair style.

W and I had a talk: She wanted the family to travel for a year. I want to concentrate on my work. I said no and I got a answer: Then I'll take the kids and you can stay and work.(Said in a crappy way) Then I got paid in SW, ST... .?

This is were the T said W should have the chance to act it out as a child and I should just say NO because I WANT TO. Trying to say no in a nice way won't cut it.

Feels more like parenting?