Re: Son's fiance is ruining my life Part 2

[Angie59]

Hi No-One,

Thank you for giving me kudos on rephrasing how to refer to my son's fiance.  That really made me feel good!

They have not set a wedding date yet.

You are so right about all you said, because it has already happened in the past to me.  You can't say anything to him about his situation or about his fiance because he is always extremely defensive.  Today, I had to talk with him about something he is somewhat angry about and handled it this way:

He said his fiance had just said that she doesn't get enough time with him or the children, and that they should make it a priority to have all of us (his parents and brother and her parents) over for dinner every other week.  This coming on the heels of him telling her that we could not make the Easter plans.  To me this was obviously trying to make us look bad by ruining what she had in mind.  Please believe me when I saw this was not what she had in mind.

She avoids my husband and I just being there in the AM when we come to babysit and avoids us by having my son come home early from work (which could possibly jeopardize his job), so she doesn't have to see us when we leave to go home.  Someone who doesn't want to be around you for even a few minutes would certainly not be trying to get family dinner get-togethers twice a week!

The plans were for us to go over there on Monday night about 6:00 p.m, order pizza and dye Easter eggs.  The reason we said we couldn't do that is because we have told them both before that my husband cannot see well in the dark to drive, especially in wet weather, which we are having.  I do not drive.

When I spoke to him and he brought this all up about his dad saying no, he said well I guess we'll have to start eating dinner at 1:00 or something in order to have you guys over!  He compared it to my brother who does this all the time!    I thought is sounded funny because of that and started laughing and then he started laughing as well.  I then said, well it's just really hard for Dad to see at night, don't worry about it, it's no big deal!"
Then I changed the subject.

Today he called to say Happy Easter, and I wished him one as well.  He then called back a few minutes later and said why don't you guys come over this afternoon for awhile.  It will only be me and the baby, but we can visit for awhile.  We did this.  His fiance was out tanning and doing a few other errands for her trip she is planning this month with another guy.  That's real "normal" right?

As far as the insurance goes, the kids and my son's fiance are not covered at all right now.  He tells me that she applied and is waiting to hear from them.  It is sad to say, but his fiance does lie quite a bit and he even acknowledged that to us.  So none of them have insurance right now except my son on his job.  Unfortunately, our grandbaby is sick right now and I concerned for him.  I didn't really say anything about the whole situation regarding insurance.

This is so, so difficult.  I have never been in a situation like this before.  I suffer from anxiety and depression, and one of the hallmarks of anxiety is ruminating.  This, I know, is what I am doing now.  Sometimes I feel like it just isn't all worth and it and wish I wasn't even here.  

Feeling depressed,
Angie59

[No-One]

NOTE:  This thread has been tacked to the top.  I'm thinking that was intended to be temporary, while a Part 2 was in works.  Perhaps, it needs to be untacked?

Hi Angie59

I'm glad you were able to share a laugh with your son!

I know it's very hard for you right now, but you are taking steps in the right direction.  Those step will all add up over time.  Dealing with difficult people, and people with BPD or BPD traits, is challenging.  It's hard to understand their behaviors.

This website has a lot of information and support available to help you learn some communication skills and strategies that will make things better for you over time. 

He said his fiance had just said that she doesn't get enough time with him or the children, and that they should make it a priority to have all of us (his parents and brother and her parents) over for dinner every other week. . .
We have told them both before that my husband cannot see well in the dark to drive, especially in wet weather, which we are having.  I do not drive.

 
Perhaps, it doesn't have to be an "all or nothing" situation.  Actually, since you mentioned your son's fiance uses foul language, when her parents are around, you might not really want to gather with her family that frequently. Your other son might not want (or have the time) to commit to an every 2 week gathering. 

Consider joining in on the dinner periodically, during the longer days (and better weather) of late Spring and Summer.  Is there an alternative to your husband driving?  Riding with your other son, Uber or Lift, public transportation?

Have you chosen not to drive because of your anxiety?  Is learning to drive something you have considered? 

It is sad to say, but his fiance does lie quite a bit and he even acknowledged that to us.

You might find the article at the link below informative, about who Narcissists and Borderlines Lie so much.
www.BPDcentral.com/blog/?Why-Do-Narcissists-and-Borderlines-Lie-So-Much-24

Thank you for giving me kudos on rephrasing how to refer to my son's fiance.  That really made me feel good!

If you go to the link below, you will see a tutorial on some of the abbreviations used here.  Another way to refer to your son's fiance is "My son's uBPD fiance" (meaning: undiagnosed BPD fiance). 

I believe I read that most people posting on this website are dealing with someone with BPD traits, as opposed to someone with an official diagnosis. Many people don't have the number of BPD traits for a diagnosis, but the traits that they do exhibit can make them very high conflict individuals and difficult to deal with.

Also, a BPD diagnosis can be subjective.  Some people receive different diagnoses, from different professionals. BPD rarely stands alone, so people with BPD (pwBPD) typically have issues with a combination of the following: anxiety, depression, bipolar, PTSD, ADHD and/or many others. It seem that a failure to manage these various issues successfully, can cause people with various mental disorders to evolve into a BPD diagnosis.  Stressful events can elevate someone with BPD traits from a high-functioning state to a low-functioning state. 

From your perspective, it shouldn't matter what her dianosis is.  Best to focus on managing yourself around the various bad behaviors.  Your personal boundaries (for what you have control over), how and when you react (or strategically choose to not react), will make things better for you and keep you off of her "no-contact list"

Hang in there.  Take care of yourself and work on managing your anxiety. 

[Angie59]

Thank you No-One, for your reply.  You brought up many good points and I have indeed found this site to be a wealth of information.

I used to really care that my son's uBPD would like me and I tried really hard.  It never really worked and now I have lost that feeling of wanting her to like me because I don't have a clue how you would even go about it.  I have tried so many times in so many ways and it is hurtful when they do something mean or just ignore you.  It feels like you just can't get close to this person.

One thing I would like an opinion on, just for my own satisfaction, is whether or not the information she shared with my husband and I when we were watching our grandson, whether it was a way to push us away even more, make us angry, thus perpetuating us talking with our son and then us getting into a fight?  It was when she told us that she was going on a trip out of country and she offered marijuana edibles to my husband for his back. 

I cannot speak for others, but we just left the house shaking our heads, speechless.  We are conservative and she is definitely not, but both those things, I would think, would bother most people.

That's another thing.  We always find ourselves questioning if something should bother us or not; like we are the ones with bad behavior!  How in the world does this happen?

Angie59

P.S.  I know how to drive, but my anxiety keeps me from getting on the highway which you have to do getting to their house. 

[Angie59]

I forgot to add something to my last post.

I know this is not concentrating on help myself, but sometimes I feel by better understanding my son's uBPD is part of helping me. 

My son and his uBPD were engaged on Valentine's Day.  Many pictures were taken at the place she works, which is where he engaged to her.  He showed them to me on his phone the other day and they were just beautiful.  She was acting in a "normal" way, looking surprised, kissing my son, pictures of them hugging, etc... .  I asked why they hadn't posted any of these on Facebook for their friends to see and his reply was "uBPD doesn't want me to because she said she doesn't want people asking her when the wedding will be. 

Wouldn't that have been easily solved by adding on the photos a simple sentence that they don't have a date set?

I don't know why you wouldn't want others to share in your happiness on such a special day and such a special event.  I'm really trying here.  Please help!

Angie59

[drained1996]

I asked why they hadn't posted any of these on Facebook for their friends to see and his reply was "uBPD doesn't want me to because she said she doesn't want people asking her when the wedding will be. 

To be to the point... .you're asking them why they are not celebrating on Facebook something you yourself do not even condone.  So why make it a deal?

Many here have learned that a lot of what you view on social media is portrayed completely opposite of what one's life may be in reality. 

No-one has given some very good insight on how to change your directory on handling your difficult situation.  You cannot change them (your DIL or son) but you can change how you react to them and the negative stimulus they may bring.
Coming to a clear understanding of the severe mental illness she shows plenty of signs off suffering from... .as well as understanding that if that's the case, your son also suffers some blindness/fog (fear, obligation, guilt) in his own relationship with her... .may help you take a step back and understand that making and keeping healthy boundaries are best for everyone involved.  It looks like you've taken a step that way with not driving there at night... .do you think there may be some other steps you and your husband could take to make the drama you are having to face decline a bit? 
I'll say this as one who has been in 2 BPD (at least) relationships... .I wasn't me, and the only person who could fix me... .was me.  Your son will have to find his own way, simply love him and let him know you are there, but I'd suggest setting boundaries (not necessarily spoken) in order to keep both you and your husband as mentally and emotionally healthy as possible.   

[Angie59]

I am wondering if anyone has ever felt this way.  I have read quite a few books and learned quite a bit on this website.  I know how important it is to give validation for my son's fiance (uBPD), to show empathy, etc... .  I have read about all of this in trying to have a relationship with her. 

I just plain don't feel like doing this.  I am stuck in anger.  I have an appointment this coming Thursday with my therapist (have not seen her in a long time), and am hoping she can help me with this.  I feel nothing but negative feelings toward my son's finance.  I cannot understand so many of her behaviors.  Clearly, they are hurting my son financially, emotionally, and perhaps physically, and her two children have suffered as well. 

I don't feel I can move forward in any way whatsoever.  I am so stuck at this point and so angry for her being this way.  I know my son is in the FOG as previously discussed on her and I have so much more compassion for him, I guess because he is my son?  He knows we will always be there for him, no matter what.  But for her - nothing.  I feel absolutely nothing toward her other than disgust and anger.

I hope I'm not alone in feeling this way.  Welcome any responses, ideas, etc.

Angie59

[Harri]

Hi Angie.

I know how important it is to give validation for my son's fiance (uBPD), to show empathy, etc... .  I have read about all of this in trying to have a relationship with her... .I just plain don't feel like doing this.  I am stuck in anger.

Well, one way at look at the tools of validation and communication strategies and showing empathy is to help your soon to be DIL but the best use for them iMO is to help make the situation easier for *you* while being able to maintain a relationship with your son and the kids.  Unfortunately if she is alienated chances are it will put a strain (or a bigger one) on your relationship with your son.

My mother (uBPD) died long before I came here and discovered such things as validation and SET, etc so I did not have a chance to use them with her but I did get to use them with a difficult friend who was living with me.  Validation helped keep her from escalating and helped to defuse some situations which helped her but more importantly, it helped *me*.  Not having to deal with her raging, yelling, threatening behavior made my life much more pleasant. 

So maybe change your perspective and rather than looking at this as a way to have a relationship with her, think of it as making it easier for you to have a relationship with your son. 

What do you think?

I will say that I know you are not alone in being angry with having to learn the tools.  I was angry and never wanted to help my mother once I figured out she was very disordered.  I was too hurt and frustrated.  Same thing with my roommate and other difficult people I have run into.  Changing my perspective helped a lot though and over time my anger faded.  You are not required to like your soon to be DIL.  but it sure would be nice if things could be less tense. 

[Angie59]

Thank you for your reply Harri!

I do see what you mean about helping you rather than doing it for a relationship with her.

At the end of this week, she will be leaving for a trip out of the country and is going with another man.  My son did say to her when she told him she was going, "well, that's great timing.  We just got engaged."  She just shrugged her shoulders at him.  Her daughter (4 years old) told her that she missed her and that she was never home anymore to spend time with.  Didn't change her trip plans though. 

It's even hard looking at her.  I guess this will just take time. 

Angie59

[Turkish]

I agree with Harri about it helping you.  When engaged with a high conflict personality, our reactions are part of the equation,  even if the other person is the "perp," so to speak.

I'm really sorry for your son and especially his daughter.  My ex was living with us when my kids then 1 and 3 and leading a double life out of our home.  Her "phoning it in" as a mother definitely affected them.  She mostly left at night after they were asleep, but she spent one weekend in San Francisco. She called the next day:

S3: "mommy come home!"
Mommy: "I miss you and D1 but mommy needs mommy time."
S3: "mommy come home!"

The emotional message to our kids was "I don't love you." Even though she did,  in her way. They aren't capable of understanding a parent coping, not to mention the immorality or neglect. 

When she came back the next day I told her. 

":)o you think I should apologize to S3?"

"No. He wouldn't understand and it would confuse him.  He's happy that you're back"

S8 now,  he still prefers me over his mom,  and it kills me to witness his almost desperate desire to connect with her better,  though I'm happy that they are this past year,  seeing an improvement.

I didn't read the first part of this.  What is your son going to do? It took 4 months to push my ex out of the house after we established it was done, not counting the previous two months when I found out about the affair.  If I hadn't pushed her out,  she would have been ok leading the double life for who knows how long.  It was damaging me,  damaging the kids,  even if they weren't old enough to understand the adult dynamics.

[Angie59]

Hello everyone!

Thank you Turkish for  your reply.  I almost cried when I read the part of your post about your son's asking his mother to come home.  It sounds so much like what D4 is going through.  By the way, D4 is not mine son's biological child.  Her father is still in the picture, seeing her regularly.  My son still calls her his own and treats her as such.  They have an unbelievable bond together.

This just happened the other day.  Eye and ear screenings were being done at her school the other day.  My son's finance (BPD) did not even fill out the permission slip.  When my son took her to preschool, he saw the people there doing the screening and asked what was going on.  When they told him, he filled out the form and called his fiance to ask permission to have this done for D4.  She said okay.  By then the kids were having breakfast and he saw D4 sitting alone at a table.  He went over to her and asked why she was sitting alone.  She said that there wasn't enough chairs at the other table.  So my son sits with her until she finishes breakfast and play time began, thus making him late for work.

I am so incredibly proud of him.  He is a great dad to both his own S2 and D4.  He is the only stability they have in their life.

I think it will be a long time until my son does anything about this situation as he is still in the FOG.  I don't know what is going on in his head but he will not say anything (and never has) about his fiance to us.  His response about the trip she is taking was, "I trust her," this coming from another family member, his aunt. 

No, I do not think she will leave.  Why leave?  He pays all the bills, entertainment, etc... .Her money is her own.  He is now finding himself with no savings, double bills coming in, etc... ., yet she does not contribute.  She just received her tax refund - close to $10,000.00 and he received his, which was $3000.00.  He is using it to catch up on bills.  She is going shopping.  So she has a roof over her head, plenty of food to eat, no need to take care of her children, since my son is always there, and can keep all her money and come and go as she pleases.  Sweet deal, huh?

I guess you can sense my anger in just saying those things.  I wish my son would wake up and see things for what they are.  I have a theory about that.  I think what situation he is in right now is better than the alternative of getting out of the relationship.  He has no rights to D4 since she is not his.  That would absolutely do him in if he could not longer have a relationship with her.  I'm sure he is also wondering what would happen to his own S2.  He would not be used to being a weekend Dad.  Not to mention the emotional toil it would take on him losing his fiance. 

So I think it looks like we are all stuck. That is the way I feel - stuck.  It hasn't helped my anxiety and depression either. 

Sorry for the ramble. 

Angie59

[Angie59]

Turkish,

I forgot to ask you if when you pushed her out of the house, did you get the kids?  If so, did she even say she was taking the kids? 

Just wondering as maybe someday this will be the case for my son. 

Angie59

[once removed]

I guess you can sense my anger in just saying those things. 

yes. and it is completely understandable.

likely, your son and his fiance can sense it too, and it is inhibiting your relationship. hes reaching out to get together more often... .

Please believe me when I saw this was not what she had in mind.
... .
Someone who doesn't want to be around you for even a few minutes would certainly not be trying to get family dinner get-togethers twice a week!

and youre questioning her motives and refusing 

I wish my son would wake up and see things for what they are. 

nearly a decade ago, my best friend rushed into a marriage. she had no interest in his interests, or his friends. she was out all hours of the night and day at any given time, and cheated on him. she neglected their two kids. my best friend withdrew, and became miserable.

and over time, i grew to resent them both. i wished my best friend would wake up and see things for what they were the way i saw them. i wished my best friend would leave, and find the relationship he deserved i wanted for him. a lot of the time, for a number of years, i had to banish him from my thoughts, or my resentment would only build.

all of that, i imagine, would be at least one thousand times harder had he been my child. i rarely had to see her, and my resentments were easy to hide.

your resentments may have different components. shes been a pill toward you. thats obvious. you want better for your son. thats noble. you expect something different for your son. thats scary and painful.

at the end of the day, your son loves this woman. he sees her differently than you do. their relationship is different (probably both better and worse) than what you see. this is what he has chosen, for now, and your grandchildren are involved. you dont have to like her (i wouldnt). you will need tools to navigate with a very difficult and challenging person and it will be trying, and we will be here to listen and validate when you need to vent.

at the end of the day, will you be able to accept things for what they are and support him? i think it starts there.

[Angie59]

Since I don't know how to quote at the moment, I will just ask what you meant by wanting something different for my son being scary and painful.  I just want someone who will fulfill his needs and simply love him.  I don't see her actions (liking going out of the country with another man), as loving someone - not just my son but her children.

I'm thinking about your last statement, At the end of the day, will you be able to accept things the way they are and support him.  My answer is I will always be there for my son, no matter what. 

I am glad to hear that I can openly rant and vent here and the BPD Family will be here for me.  This website has been considerably helpful to me in many ways. 

I think, once again, I am just stuck in this mindset and cannot get past it.  Perhaps there is no answer for that. 

[once removed]

I will just ask what you meant by wanting something different for my son being scary and painful.

i mean this:

I don't see her actions (liking going out of the country with another man), as loving someone - not just my son but her children.

[Angie59]

Do you agree that most people would find that pretty strange?  I'm asking because I really want to get in a better place than I am.  Maybe just saying what I think will help me do that.

Please know, I am wanting knowledge about the situation - do not mean to be a smart alec by it at all. 

[Angie59]

I guess what I'm trying to say is her actions show the opposite of what most people would think of as showing love.  What about the damage she is doing to her children? 

Does this mean I should not have any expectations?  Maybe it does, I don't know.  My head feels like scrambled eggs right now! 

[Harri]

Hi Angie.

I guess what I'm trying to say is her actions show the opposite of what most people would think of as showing love.  What about the damage she is doing to her children?... .  Does this mean I should not have any expectations?  Maybe it does, I don't know.  My head feels like scrambled eggs right now!

  Yes, her actions are contrary to your definition of love and good parenting.  Mine too BTW.  The thing is, even tho your son is involved, it is not your choice or really even your place to try to get things to change.  Your son is an adult and gets to make his own choices no matter what you or anyone else may think about them.

What has helped me to cope and decrease my anger and frustration (and even outrage) is to look at these situations as a boundary issue.  Yes, you care, yes, you would do things differently and yes, you wish things were different for your son.  But these are his choices that he is free to make.  In these situations and the ones Once Removed described about his friend, I had to tell myself it was none of my business and part of my love for this person meant that I accepted and respected their right and ability to make their own choices regardless of my opinions. 

Does that make sense?  It does not matter whether or not most people would find the finace's behavior strange (and I think they would).  What matters is how your son see this.  What matters is that this *is* the situation and your opinions and feelings will not change things for the better.  In fact they may very well be making this worse for *you*.  As Once Removed said, it is likely that your son and his fiance sense you anger.  When frustration and anger reach the level that you are at, no matter how justified you may feel or how valid those feelings are, the other people are going to sense it.  You can't hide that. 

What do you think?

[Angie59]

What do I think? I think you are a very wise person and I believe you to be right. Just hoping I can get there.

[Harri]

Angie, you will get there.     It takes time to sort out all of the very understandable emotions you are having.  Changing the way you look at things takes time.  Just keep posting and talking with us as you feel the need.  Actually, it is usually most beneficial to post when you are feeling less upset as that way you can focus more and not have to fight through all the heightened emotions.  Not that you should not post when you are upset though.  We are here and will listen no matter where you are at.

 

[Angie59]

Thank you so much Harri for the reassurance about everyone being here for me.  That means a lot because other than my husband and other son, I do not really share this with anyone else. 

I think you are right again in pointing out that I might want to post when I am not so angry.  This is a lot of work, and feeling so angry is just causing me to use even more energy up. 

Thanks again Harri and to everyone on the board who has given their ideas, replies, and just plain old been there for me.  It is appreciated so much!

Angie

[Harri]

Of course we are here for you!  So many of us have had to do the same type of mental shift that is required for your situation.  I have never had to do so with a child so I can only imagine how hard that must be for you.  I do know that it is hard to let go.  Damn hard.

I am glad you will also be posting when you are less upset.  It is all about balance.  You need to work through your frustrations and you do that by learning to use the tools when you are less emotional.  Yes, I brought up the dang tools!     You know, it is okay if you just don't feel like it.  Take a break from learning sometimes.  You are doing well to recognize that you are angry and to let that out.  Denying your emotions, as I am sure you know, is not helpful and makes things worse.

Okay, I am just rambling.

Take care Angie.

[Turkish]

at the end of the day, your son loves this woman. he sees her differently than you do. their relationship is different (probably both better and worse) than what you see. this is what he has chosen, for now, and your grandchildren are involved. you dont have to like her (i wouldnt). you will need tools to navigate with a very difficult and challenging person and it will be trying, and we will be here to listen and validate when you need to vent.

at the end of the day, will you be able to accept things for what they are and support him? i think it starts there.

My therapist once told me,  "you know I think a lot of your anger stems from you expecting her to be who she is not."  Turned the mirror back on myself.  

If this marriage "works" for him,  no matter that we agree it may be unhealthy,  then it works.  My ex's uncle and aunt live together,  but haven't been romantically tied for years.  Blew me away I learned that.  I think my ex was trying to pull something like that,  but I wouldn't tolerate it.  Her behavior I couldn't control.  Boundaries are about us and our values.  

Value: I do not believe in either open marriage, nor marriage in name only. It is unhealthy for me,  and I believe it is unhealthy for children to live in such a home.  

Boundary: I will not participate in such a r/s, nor show this example to my children.  

Action: Separation or divorce if my values can't be reconciled with those of my partner.  

(In response to your earlier question, I would settle for no less then joint legal and physical custody, another boundary of mine,  based upon my values when my ex hinted that the kids were going with her and she didn't want to file a custody order---- another boundary and  I wouldn't accept no legal agreement)

That's my story in a nutshell.  As the others have said,  your son is in a different place right now.  His values, and consequently boundaries and actions, are his own right now.  This could change,  who knows?

[Angie59]

Hello everyone,

Well, I've been posting a lot of things on here which show how angry I am about my son's uBPD going out of country with another guy.  She will be preparing to leave this Thursday, which is the day we babysit our grandson.

Her plane leaves on Friday morning (very early) so Thursday will be the last day to say goodbye. 

I don't know what has even come over me, and you can call me psycho if you like, but I'm feeling like I want to say something to her before she leaves.  Something loving, and I don't have a clue why.  I was going to give her a hug and say something on the order of, have a good time and come back to us safely. 

Do you think she would appreciate something like this, or take it the wrong way?  Sometimes when I do things I think she would like and things which would make my son feel good too, it doesn't always turn out that way.

Any opinions, ideas?

Angie

P.S.  I really feel crazy having this feeling!  I'm almost worried about my mental health!

[Harri]

Hi Angie.  I think saying exactly what you wrote is excellent.

say something on the order of, have a good time and come back to us safely. 

<--- I can't think of anything kinder or more accepting than this.   

As she is not a hugger, I would wait until after you say this and if she seems on the verge of moving closer, put your arms out for a hug and wait for her to move into them.  It is okay is she is not a hugger.  Lots of people aren't which I remember finding surprising given that like you I was raised in a huggy heavily Italian influenced home.  LOL it was so foreign to me but I have to say that now I like knowing I do not have to hug someone or accept a hug if I don't want to. 

I don't see any reason to call you psycho.  Feelings just are Angie.  As for how she will take it?  I have no idea.  All you can do is your best.  Keep it simple and easy.  Do not try to read her response, just accept whatever response she may have as a part of her which she has every right to. 

I used to worry about everything and I do mean everything.  anxiety is very difficult to deal with.  I found medication to be a great help.  I still feel anxious but not as bad and I do not ruminate endlessly.  I also don't dissociate as often.  Have you ever tried medication for your anxiety?  I'm just wondering if that may give you some peace and help you work through things.  This is tough stuff to try to sort through.  I think you are doing great though.  Good job on wanting to reach out to your soon to be DIL!

[Angie59]

Hi Harri!

Thank you so much for your kind words - and for not calling me psycho!

I agree with you totally that feelings are not wrong or right, they just are.  Don't know if I will feel the same way on Thursday or not.  My feelings are kind of on a roller coaster ride right now it seems.

I have gone to her before to give her a hug and she does respond but it is not that "Italian" kind of hug we are used to!  She is kind of stiff and awkward.  I love your suggestion of putting my arms out and letting her come toward me.  You're right as far as being raised a certain way.  My family was very open and affectionate toward family and friends.  When you came in the door, you hugged and got a kiss on the cheek.  Even you only stayed 5 minutes, same thing out the door!  This is normal for me and probably you too.  I have to learn everyone is not the same.

Thanks again for your reply!

Angie

[No-One]

Hi Angie59:
Just peeking in to say that it doesn't have to be "all or nothing".  Sometimes, just being kind and polite is just fine.

The situation of her leaving on a trip with another man is awkward.  Don't be surprised if she is a bit cold on Thursday.  Sometimes, people with BPD traits will take on a nasty attitude and set the stage to help them NOT feel guilty for something they are about to do. (i.e. blame other for something, start a fight)

Hopefully, all goes well, and there is no drama.  Hope for the best, but don't be surprised if there is tension in the room.  An alternate approach might be to smile (without a hug) and just wish her a safe trip.

Be cautious about what you say to your son, as it could come back at you.  Listen, if he wants to talk.  If indicated, perhaps suggest he get some counseling to help him make the best life decisions.  Avoid bad mouthing his fiance.  It's common for some sons to eventually let the fiance/wife know what you said, which eventually leads to them cutting you out of their lives.

Your son's fiance might be a bit uncertain about getting married.  The trip she is taking, and her not being interested in setting a marriage date, could mean she she may not be ready to commit to marriage.

[Turkish]

Hi Angie59:
Just peeking in to say that it doesn't have to be "all or nothing".  Sometimes, just being kind and polite is just fine.

My T, no fan of my ex,  told me pretty much exactly that.