Justice

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

There is never an excuse for abuse. It's that simple.

Who is excusing it?  I certainly am not.  I do want accountability from my ex ... .and I also know I will never get it.  At the end of the day, I am responsible for my life and my decisions.  I chose to get into a relationship with my ex and stay even after the red flags were flown.  That choice is mine and mine alone to own.  That in NO WAY excuses her for the things she did that essentially destroyed me.  

[C.Stein]

There is never an excuse for abuse. It's that simple.

Who is excusing it?  I certainly am not.  I do want accountability from my ex ... .and I also know I will never get it.  At the end of the day, I am responsible for my life and my decisions.  I chose to get into a relationship with my ex and stay even after the red flags were flown.  That choice is mine and mine alone to own.  That in NO WAY excuses her for the things she did that essentially destroyed me.  

[hollow]

SG, I understand you feel disappointed and maybe even slightly abandoned by the comment "personal responsibility". While I understand your pain and suffering, and believe me, I've been there as have a lot of people on this boards, I too consider that the disorder is not 100% at fault here. I take responsibility for staying as long as I did, take responsibility for not sticking to my guns and allowing recycling, take responsibility for not sticking to "I'm leaving the next time she picks a fight with me", and all the other times I stayed when I should have gone (and they are many). The fact that clinical or sub BPD is an umbrella of disorders, that means I am now able to spot red flags from afar and not find myself in situations I was unequipped to deal with before. Yes, we were wronged, and it was all unfair, etc etc etc, our exes take some of the blame. However, we take the rest of the blame for our wrong turns.

I'm sorry you feel maybe even betrayed by the board. I understand why, yet I also think that our exes are not 100% to blame. Some people say 50-50, others like to think it's 60-40. Whatever the percentage, personal responsibility is necessary.

[Reforming]

Hi all,

It's a worthwhile topic but perhaps we need to step back for a moment and take a few breaths.

I completely get the desire for justice and the anger that many of us feel towards our exes. I don't think anyone is trying to invalidate those feelings. They deserve to be heard and treated with respect

If any of our exes have broken the law they should be held accountable.

Swampgas the US and the UK have a legal system to address and punish the crimes of those that break the law. It's not perfect and it is constantly being refined and improved but it's there.

You said that you could have taken your ex to court but you made a decision not to pursue legal action against her. I don't know your reasons but is it fair to blame our legal system for your choice?

Do you think  that we also need new laws that target behaviour that is currently not covered by our legal system? This is possible but I'd suggest it's very complex.

As C Stein has pointed out what one person defines as emotional abuse is very subjective and predicated on our particular personality types and sensitivities. It would require incredibly well thought through legalisation not to mention highly skilled administration to implement it well and there is a real danger that it could be misinterpreted and abused.  There are many members who have been charged for violence and abuse when the opposite was the case.

I still feel very angry at times about some of my exes behaviour. I would never excuse it but I also think blame and I have done plenty of blaming myself - is not just an exercise in futility - it's a trap.

The more I blame my ex the more of a victim I become. It might give me some short term relief but ultimately it's suffocating. It disempowers me and it robs me of potential happiness and life.

There are millions of people all over the world who never get justice. We're lucky enough to live in a part of the world were are rights and liberties are protected in ways that many of us take for granted. Even then if you read the victim reports where perpetuators were punished justice often ends up being a very hollow experience. You can't undo the past. You can make peace with it, learn and move forward. Not easy but possible.

Reforming

[eprogeny]

This is an interesting thread.  There will never be a day where I won't wish to hear my BPDexgf come forward with some sort of acknowledgement about her actions - some sort of "ownership" for them.  But I know that will never happen.  Even if she gets therapy and comes to a point in her life where she can prevent herself from behaving that way in her future, she'll never look back on what she did to me to apologize with actual meaning in it.

And yet, I am 100% aware that if not for my own childhood wounds - my own issues I've never even addressed until the trauma my ex inflicted upon me - she could not ever have done the damage she did.  Did my ex cause the damage I suffered?  Yes, she absolutely did.  Am I at fault for that damage? No, I am not.  But I am at fault for allowing it to continue.  I'm not a child anymore.  I'm a grown adult and I had been unhappy and felt like I'd been abused by her for years - yet I kept trying to make it work.

Why?  Because I was just as unhealthy as she was - it just manifested differently for me.  My dysfunction came from my compulsive need - actual need - to "matter" to her and to feel like she valued me as a person.  I literally needed that from her because it gave me a feeling I didn't even realize I wanted - which was to feel like I didn't have the wounds I had for the reasons I had them.

Would the damage have been as severe if I'd left her long before I did?  No, it wouldn't have.  And that's the ownership I take in the relationship.  I was a good little victim who kept buying her BS and kept blaming myself for why she couldn't treat me like a human being with value and worth.  That's not on her - it's on me.  I blame her for what she did, I hold her accountable for how she treated me - but I also blame myself and hold myself accountable for allowing it for so long.

There's literally nothing wrong with being hurt, angry, upset, and all that you feel about what your ex did to you.  But there's no point in wallowing in those feelings when the only reason you have them is less about who they are and what they did and are more about who you are and why you allowed it.

They don't need to be "held accountable", not really.  What they need is some dedicated and serious help.  When we can't let a toxic person for us out of our lives, our thoughts, and our actions we're in need of just as much help as they are.  That's not "victim blaming", that's reality. 

[Conundrum]

So is it wrong to desire justice? Is it wrong to want to see her pay for her crimes?

It is neither wrong nor right to desire justice when feeling victimized. Customarily, that desire is shaped by one's philosophy, theology, ethics, values, reason and emotion.

However, in an ordered secular society, we delegate the administration of justice to the government whom are empowered to enforce our criminal statutes.

Under the vast majority of modern criminal codes there are panoply of domestic violence laws which address interpersonal relational behaviors, and communications--that criminalize offensive touching's, threats to imminently offensively touch, illegal restraints upon movement, use of electronic communication devices to harass, stalking etc.

Consequently, as imperfect as the criminal justice system may be--clearly there are well-established protections in place for those whom suffer from domestic abuse (assuming an individual avails themselves of said protections).

Though, it appears that what is being focused upon here are relational injustices that fall short of criminal violations and can be described colloquially as crimes of the heart.

Yet, those relational offenses are not exclusively committed by the disordered. They permeate a plethora of strata in contemporary society. For really, what is being described is the trauma caused by betrayal. Yet, betrayal is among the oldest of elements recorded in the human experience--and is there really anything new under the sun when it comes to how terrible lovers (or former lovers) may be to each other. In the flick the "Princess Bride" there's a quote--"You mean, you'll put down your rock and I'll put down my sword, and we'll try and kill each other like civilized people." Though, I am afraid that there is nothing civilized when it comes to the vagaries of romantic love--and the sooner one internalizes that love rarely is fair--then the sooner he or she will desist from disproportionally expecting a romantic love interest to provide the recipe that fulfills one's identity. A relationship with a pwBPD may simply bring that notion to the forefront in the most fractured of lights.
 
However, when romantic relations are categorized as abusive--it is incumbent to authentically recognize that abusive relationships rarely arise in an equitable vacuum and are consistently the product of relationships in which there resides an imbalance of power. That imbalance of power can manifest itself via many shapes--physical strength, financial dependence, emotional domination/control, psychological domination/control etc.

Consequently, desiring justice in the sphere of one's personal romantic relationship inevitably remains a subjective desire. Though, we may couch that desire in various forms--altruism, to protect others, or vengeance as in retribution--yet, the most common form that we witness here, is the desire that the person who singularly hurt us--feels our pain on an equal level. Because, it often seems unfathomable that someone we were so close to--whom we loved so dearly--could turn on us and hurt us in such awful ways. 

Yet, if our claims of victimization are premised upon being defenseless, implying that our relational free-will was subsumed by another to the degree that we lost the volitional ability to protect ourselves from harm--that begs the question; how did our partner usurp power, why did we accede power to them, and what was it in exchange for? For it is impossible (or near impossible) to be abused in a romantic relationship without a disparity of power. Just my 2 cents on a touchy subject.

[hollow]

There's literally nothing wrong with being hurt, angry, upset, and all that you feel about what your ex did to you.  But there's no point in wallowing in those feelings when the only reason you have them is less about who they are and what they did and are more about who you are and why you allowed it.

While I agree with your post overall, I have a different point of view than the one expressed in this statement. If there was no point in wallowing in those feelings, then that would suggest avoiding seeing what the problem is/was. The point of letting those feelings come over you is to eventually reach a point where you are able to see where they stem from. If BPDs taught us anything is that feelings are just as important. What I am trying to say here is, you can't reach point B ("who you are and why you allowed it" if you haven't gone through point A ("who they are and what they did". "Wallowing in those feelings" when in point A will eventually lead to point B. I don't see this as pointless, but as a necessary step no matter how long it takes.

And to get back on topic with my post:
Reading stories on these boards, I see that my subclinical BPD ex wasn't as severe, as abusive or as controlling as many of the BPDs described here. She was much more indirect, insidious, "subtle" in her approach, yet the rages were just as aggressive (there was even one time she reacted physically). Her "games" (can we call them games if they are unaware of what their rules are?) were the same, her vocabulary was the same, her needs, impulsive behavior, end results were the same to many of the BPD stories described here. The effect on me, however, was the same. The emotional abuse that I went through felt severe. The constant ambiguity of most situations kept me in total confusion, uncertainty, emotional pain. Then she went away emotionally and I broke up with her. Was it easy? No, it felt like somebody twisted a knife through my stomach. So I went back for more, hoping things would work out. The second time I broke up with her was just as painful (note: there were a lot of breakup-makeup cycles, and before the 2nd "main" breakup they were almost bi-daily). Hell, it was even painful with the 3rd one when we were supposedly just "friends with benefits", and I was experimenting to see if all the things I learned about the disorder were in check (they are). Until something happened again, and all the unresolved issues from before resurfaced, and I had to break up with her again.

Are you reading the above and thinking she's at fault 100% here? I doubt it.

[eprogeny]

"Wallowing in those feelings" when in point A will eventually lead to point B. I don't see this as pointless, but as a necessary step no matter how long it takes.

I wholeheartedly agree.  Clearly I was not as precise as I thought I had been when using the word "wallowing" - for I never once meant to imply the process, nor its components, as unnecessary or pointless. 

What I see as pointless is simply staying in "point A" for no good reason.  As in... .if Point A isn't a place of origin from which we are moving away while moving toward Point B - then that is wallowing. 

Being angry and wanting accountability is part of Point A - but some never leave there and never are willing, or able, to turn that intensity inward to ask themselves the questions leading us to our harder truths.  That's what I see as pointless.  That energy, focus, and time is better spent on ourselves and coming to understand why we allowed all of it for so long. 

But, then, I think I've done my healing a bit backwards than many others here - I went straight from comprehending the disorder to asking myself why I allowed the mistreatment for so long.  Only now do I think I'm really entering into the anger stage - and, yeah, I've come to see I'm fairly angry (I've actually been playing a mobile phone game where the point is to create and evolve a virus to wipe out all humanity - so I named my virus after her and placed patient zero in her country of origin - which I recognize is my subconscious anger trying to be felt).

Anger is not an emotion I am comfortable feeling.  So I'm a little shocked to find that I'm in this place.  Even so, I'd much rather see my BPDexgf get help than to see her held accountable.  I suppose if I watched her prey on others and cause them the same harm I allowed, I might feel a sense of injustice about it all - but that would be different for me than wanting justice for what I allowed her to do to me.

*shrugs*

[hollow]

It may take some people longer than others to deal with some feelings. 

[Reforming]

Hi all and thanks sharing your insights
 

Yet, if our claims of victimization are premised upon being defenseless, implying that our relational free-will was subsumed by another to the degree that we lost the volitional ability to protect ourselves from harm--that begs the question; how did our partner usurp power, why did we accede power to them, and what was it in exchange for? For it is impossible (or near impossible) to be abused in a romantic relationship without a disparity of power. Just my 2 cents on a touchy subject.

Very insightful post Conundrum. It seems to me that many of our relationships begin with some kind of inequality. We rescue  partners who appeared vulnerable and in need of our strength and wisdom. I think this dynamic is rarely healthy and ironically by the end of these relationships we are the ones who need to be rescued. Inequality ultimately breeds resentment.

If BPDs taught us anything is that feelings are just as important. What I am trying to say here is, you can't reach point B ("who you are and why you allowed it" if you haven't gone through point A

.

Hollow I think this is very true. In order to move forward we all need the time and space to grieve and work through our anger. The time required is different for each of us and we shouldn't judge each other. The important thing is not to get stuck in phase 1.

I am 100% aware that if not for my own childhood wounds - my own issues I've never even addressed until the trauma my ex inflicted upon me - she could not ever have done the damage she did.  :)id my ex cause the damage I suffered?  Yes, she absolutely did.  Am I at fault for that damage? No, I am not.  But I am at fault for allowing it to continue.  I'm not a child anymore.  I'm a grown adult and I had been unhappy and felt like I'd been abused by her for years - yet I kept trying to make it work.

Eprogeny this was very true for me too. Like many others here I knew that my relationship was unhealthy and destructive but I chose to stay and accept her behaviour. This can be a very painful realisation, especially when you're still struggling to deal with the feelings of betrayal and hurt that come when the relationship ends. But recognising that we made choices too and understanding why does not mean we are excusing our partners destructive behaviour or blaming ourselves. We do it to learn from our experience and make sure that it doesn't happen again.

Swamp I've read some of your posts and it sounds like you've been through hell and back. We can share out stories and try and support each other but nobody has been in your shoes and we're not is judging you. It sounds like you've come a long way in a short time. I slipped in and out of anger for a long time and I can still be triggered in the wrong circumstances. I felt violated and diminished by what my ex did but the hardest anger to process was the anger and blame I directed towards myself. It's taken me a lot of time to recognise that a certain point blaming my ex and myself just kept me stuck. Both are destructive. That's doesn't mean that I've forgiven her for what she did - that may nor may not happen - but I am learning to forgive myself which is much more important.

Thanks for the great thread

Reforming

[steelwork]

Hey Swampgas,

I have only skimmed most of the posts here, but I did read your initial post in its entirety, and some of your replies. I understand that you feel angry and outraged on a more macro level. You're feeling moral outrage, it sounds like. I don't feel moral outrage wrt BPD, and I disagree with many of your premises, but I definitely know the feeling. The question is, do you let it make (or keep) you angry and bitter? I think everyone here has been told at one time or another, "Life ain't fair." Trite, but true. So my question to you is: can you keep that moral outrage from poisoning your life--this one--the only one you have?

[kc sunshine]

This is a really interesting thread. For my part, I am less concerned with questions of justice and accountability and more concerned with questions of awareness. I think that I would have benefitted from more awareness about the potential damaging effects of the relationship on myself. I was lucky-- my ex told me she had BPD, so I had some clue that it was at play in our interactions. I researched a lot about BPD but learned much more about what it meant for her, than what it would mean for me (besides instability). This site was so important for learning about what it meant for me and then also working towards recovery.

I'm wondering if there are other ways to raise awareness about the impact of BPD on friends and family. Here's what wikipedia has to say-- to me this is a little short and cryptic. What else might we want to add?

Family members:
People with BPD are prone to feeling angry at members of their family and alienated from them. On their part, family members often feel angry and helpless at how their BPD family members relate to them.

Parents of adults with BPD are often both over-involved and under-involved in family interactions. In romantic relationships, BPD is linked to increased levels of chronic stress and conflict, decreased satisfaction of romantic partners, abuse, and unwanted pregnancy. However, these links may apply to personality disorders in general.[29]

[TheSinister]

You r looking for justice to be done with an insane person?

BPD is a serious mental illness, those people don't want/choose to be like that and nobody is 100% why they became like that but they can't change it, T can't really cure them and spouses surly just make them worse.

what you are experiencing is really nothing close to what they are going through without any hope to become better one day.

You know that people might get away even with murder if it's proven that they are mad right?   

We (and you as well) played our roll in this mess, we are the ones that tolerated all the mess they brought to the r/s,, we played our part, ignoring all the red flags all the way until it was too late.

Don't ever forget it

Sorry but you sound like a child that seek revenge instead of taking responsibility for his actions and FOG. Nobody forced us to stay, most people would run away once the first  showed but we didn't, we let it drag coz being with them served something deep within us and maybe instead of being angry at the fish for not being able to climb a tree channel your energy to understand yourself and how you can heal and avoid those kind of r/s  in the future.

leave her be, she lives in hell, what can be worse then that?

[Roler]

What is it that you would see or feel as justice?