Some advice needed - negative attitude after a good period

[Maya60]

Hi all,

It’s been a while since I posted here. Things were going very well, but now I feel like tension is starting to rise. And I need some advice.

Me and my partner have been together for almost 3 years now. After 1 year he moved in with me cos he sold his home where he lived with his ex and 2 young children. This didn’t turn out well, many fights and frustrations led to me kicking him out of my home in November. I couldn’t handle it anymore after all those false promises of him going into therapy.  After two months we talked, and picked up the relationship again . He was living with his sister till he could find an apartment, and we both started seeing a therapist. I learned a lot about my own behavior and how to deal with his (and other peoples) emotions. So I feel a lot stronger and don’t take things too personally again, and let myself being stressed for days about a discussion  anymore. So that helps. And he (not diagnosed btw) is being a lot easier as well. Less fight, less jealousy, and when it does happen, he doesn’t let is escalate anymore.

4 weeks ago he got the news that he’ll has his own apartment. So while waiting till it’s finished (floor and walls need to be done) he could stay at my place. But guess what, the floor of this 70m2 apartment is still not done, and tension is starting to build again. He’s picking at me very quick, jealousy is starting to rise again, and he’s so quickly angry and irritated again. I try to keep things smooth, usually saying something like “Mr Grumpy, could we please let it go?” with a smile and a hug works, but now it’s more and more directed on me.

A few examples:

-we went out, I was talking to his best friend. I (apparently) did not include him in the conversation with his friend (he was standing 1 m away, talking to someone else I thought), so when we walked back home he started a scene, screaming again. Saying I ignored him and maybe I’m interested in his friend. So I said I did not do anything on purpose and I didn’t  even notice what happened. And then when he kept screaming and accusing I said “when you talk to me this way I will walk home and end this conversation”. This made him even more angry, pulling my arm. Me being shocked “If you ever touch me again I will end this relationship” (I know I shouldn’t have said this, but it’s a red flag for me!). And I continued saying I did not do anything on purpose so I can’t say sorry for something I did not even notice, and that he could just tell me  all this in a normal way. He’s making it way bigger than it should.

-forgetting EVERYTHING. The buses are striking in Holland, but he keeps forgetting and has to walk to the station. Keys,(it backfires at me cos I told him about it on whatsapp but I didn’t took them with me to the station, I thought he was already gone by train). Today his bread and cheese is still on the top of the fridge, he forgot again…

-my parents want to give them their old couch for his new apartment. First they said they would bring it to him. But my mom send him a message that he could pick it up (we both don’t have a car). So something got mixed up in understanding,  and he became agitated again instead of trying to find a solution. I told him just message my mom about it and see what will happen. Then he kept being angry, I told him it was quiet unthankful to act like this when someone wants to give you something for free. Well, you should have seen his face…

I know I should be the one who stays strong and stable, but it’s starting to make me frustrated. I just heard I will have a new job in a few months, so I’m feeling really happy actually.

The thing is though, he really approved over the last months in therapy. He could talk about all the negativity in life to her, and it made him a more relaxed person.

I feel like he needs to move to his own place. But it makes me sad as well to notice that even when we started off so well, we fail at living together... He changes into a less relaxed person when it comes to living together. Focusing on me in a negative way. Being suspicious...

I think I will talk to my therapist about it Thursday. I’m not sure how to handle this. When I’ll start a conversation about how I feel he’s being not relaxed lately, he will see it as an attack I think...

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[pearlsw]

Hi Maya60,

Glad you are back with us! Sorry it is because you are having troubles with your partner again.

One thing I would say is to go back and take a look at validating. It can go a long way. I used to think I was doing everything right in the relationship and it was just him that was the problem. I didn't see how much I fell into justifying, arguing, defending and explaining (JADE-ing) and how invalidating I could actually be! (If I didn't understand or agree with his feelings I'd just want him to suck it up and get over it! That wasn't very effective!)  It really doesn't matter who is right or wrong I've found, what matters is to find the common ground, whenever possible.

It's really important that you study up again on Validation and that you Don't JADE.

It amazing how much smoother life can be, or least give you a decent chance to get more peace, if you work with these tools. It is about listening, finding the message although it is often not wrapped up in a nice package, and focus on just that.

Living together is not easy for a lot of us - whether there are these issues or not. Don't beat yourself up over it. What are the most difficult parts about it? Want to write out a list and we can take a look?

Please stick around. It can take time to work through things. Post your own and post on others threads - we can work through it together!

wishing you peace, pearl.

[Radcliff]

 I certainly understand how so many of his behaviors would be frustrating to you, especially living so close together now.

I think pearlsw's advice is good, particularly about “justify, argue, defend, or explain” (JADE).  Do you think that some of the ways you were interacting with him might be considered JADE?

WW

[Maya60]

Hi Pearl and WW,

I thought a lot about you messages and read about jade and validation again. I now realize I was i jade-ing yes, and being invalidating.

We talked about it yesterday because we both still felt bad about what happened on Friday night.

I asked him about what his feelings were, and how we both can try to prevent his from happening the next time. So I told him I will be more aware of not letting him stand alone for a long time when we are having a night out. He just cannot handle being "ignored" (the way he feels it) so I will keep an eye on him more often the next time and include him in conversations more often.

The other part was jealousy. So I asked him what he thought; he thought that I might me interested in his best friend since we were standing close to each other and talking for 10 minutes. (the music was loud... )
I reassured him, saying I'm his partner for over 3 years and the guy is a good friend, so why would we intentionally harm him? This part stays difficult, but I try to reassure that I love him and I would never intent to hurt him.

The last part didn't really went as good as I hoped it would. Cos he still sees it as betrayal or something like that.

So my issue at this point: how can I be validation, not jade-ing, while his view on me not ever talking to a guy anymore is not something that we can realize. I mean, I can be aware of not letting my partner standing alone when going out, but it is not workable to never talk to someone anymore for longer than 5 minutes.
So how do I react on a restriction like this?
I understand his feeling, but restricting me in such a way is gonna led to not being able to order a beer if the bartender is man... .

So this last part I did not tell him. Hope you guys can help me out.

When can I reassure, when do I make commitments that are not "normal" anymore?

[Bright_80]

The other part was jealousy. So I asked him what he thought; he thought that I might me interested in his best friend since we were standing close to each other and talking for 10 minutes. (the music was loud... )
I reassured him, saying I'm his partner for over 3 years and the guy is a good friend, so why would we intentionally harm him? This part stays difficult, but I try to reassure that I love him and I would never intent to hurt him.

The last part didn't really went as good as I hoped it would. Cos he still sees it as betrayal or something like that.

So my issue at this point: how can I be validation, not jade-ing, while his view on me not ever talking to a guy anymore is not something that we can realize. I mean, I can be aware of not letting my partner standing alone when going out, but it is not workable to never talk to someone anymore for longer than 5 minutes.
So how do I react on a restriction like this?
I understand his feeling, but restricting me in such a way is gonna led to not being able to order a beer if the bartender is man... .

This is a tough one for me, too. My BPDh once raged at me, because he thought I was too intently watching our pastor when he was preaching, which must mean I was inappropriately interested in the pastor. Where else was I supposed to be looking? I'm not sure what the best advice is for you, but I can say that I have eliminated all male friends, except those which are mutual. Since my husband doesn't like to go out, I don't talk to them really anyway. pwBPD are so fearful of abandonment that this is one of the biggest triggers, at least in my situation. You may have to weigh the option of how much you really need male friends /acquaintances versus this particular relationship. At least that is what I had to do. Maybe others have options that will work for you.

[Radcliff]

If your partner feels jealous, but has asked for an unreasonable restriction on you, you can do a couple of things.  One is partial validation, where you validate the part of their position that is valid.  At the very least you almost always can validate feelings, since they are always valid (if he feels threatened or worried, then that is a valid emotion for him, even if you think it is unnecessary).  You could say something like, "You sound very concerned.  If you felt like I might be more interested in that other guy than in you I can certainly understand how you'd be upset."   Another approach could be to use S.E.T. (Support, Empathy, Truth), where the "truth" part of it is that you will continue to talk to others occasionally.

If you give too much ground to jealousy, you can become isolated, so it's very good that you're looking at this issue and learning how to deal with it.

WW

[Maya60]

This is a tough one for me, too. My BPDh once raged at me, because he thought I was too intently watching our pastor when he was preaching, which must mean I was inappropriately interested in the pastor. Where else was I supposed to be looking? I'm not sure what the best advice is for you, but I can say that I have eliminated all male friends, except those which are mutual. Since my husband doesn't like to go out, I don't talk to them really anyway. pwBPD are so fearful of abandonment that this is one of the biggest triggers, at least in my situation. You may have to weigh the option of how much you really need male friends /acquaintances versus this particular relationship. At least that is what I had to do. Maybe others have options that will work for you.

Ha I had that situation a few weeks ago. How odd huh? This way of thinking, something we *just* watch people. But they have this fear...

This is what happened:
We were watching a band and the guitar player took of his shirt. He was kinda muscular. My partner is not (a bit chubby, but I don't mind at all!) and he was like "so, I guess you are now watching him huh? Good view I guess?".  I replied very calm that the guy is muscular, but I love my partner and find him the most attractive man. He quickly apologized for his behavior to me.
So sometimes there is indeed progress!

I do have a few male friends and he's okay with it. Not happy, but okay. I said I will not abandon long time friends, because I am a loyal person.

But when it comes to new people, the "male" thing is always seen as a threat.  We do go out to see bands playing every 3 weeks or so. And most of his friends are male, so it will stay a point of discussion.

I do notice that when he's having a good time talking to someone, he doesn't seem to care when I talk to his male friends. So it's a bit confusing from what he told me two days ago.
I think I'll just keep an eye on his social situation when we go out. He's so afraid to be left alone, and his minds starts to make very strange assumptions of whats going on.

[Maya60]

If your partner feels jealous, but has asked for an unreasonable restriction on you, you can do a couple of things.  One is partial validation, where you validate the part of their position that is valid.  At the very least you almost always can validate feelings, since they are always valid (if he feels threatened or worried, then that is a valid emotion for him, even if you think it is unnecessary).  You could say something like, "You sound very concerned.  If you felt like I might be more interested in that other guy than in you I can certainly understand how you'd be upset."   Another approach could be to use S.E.T. (Support, Empathy, Truth), where the "truth" part of it is that you will continue to talk to others occasionally.

If you give too much ground to jealousy, you can become isolated, so it's very good that you're looking at this issue and learning how to deal with it.

WW

Thanks, I can work with that! I also told him before that I cannot go out and NOT talk to anyone, cos the whole point of having a good time with other people is gone.

About the issue:
He was angry later on, and explained what he thought when in max anger state. Since I didn't notice it happening I found it hard to validate his emotions at that time. I wish I saw it earlier, that way I could have used your advice and validate his emotions of being so upset about him being left alone. (before this escalation).

I know now that he needs to be talking to someone when we go out, or wants to be with me. Yeah, I did not validate the restriction part, just partly, since he invited this friend to join us to a whole day festival and 2 hour train ride next week.  I think it was a moment of black and white thinking "never talk to him again for 10 minutes!" ... .It was to be like "please pay attention to me when I'm standing all alone, otherwise bad feelings will arise".

So I reassured him I will pay more attention to him when having a conversation, or including him in the conversation. Nothing about not having a conversation again.

So maybe I did end the conversation in the best way possible at that time (about not agreeing on the restriction)

[Radcliff]

I think you did end it in the best way possible!

I just re-read your thread.  What I see is someone who understands the tools well, and has a good rapport with her partner.  You were concerned about rising tensions, but you have the tools to deal with the situation.  That is great!  I particularly liked your strategy of saying something like "Mr. Grumpy, can we please let this go?" with a hug.  At times, if it's something he's more upset about that's directed at you, you may need to first validate feelings, but your playful, loving approach to him is powerful.  You understand JADE and validation; when we mentioned it, you knew exactly what we meant!  Clearly, you've been working hard to make this relationship work.

How long do you think it will be before his apartment is ready?  What else is going on in your life together during this time that's making things stressful?

WW

[Maya60]

Hi WW,

Yes, he usually responds best when I react in a playfull or more light way. But like last friday, I guess it just came as a too big of a surprise to me to not JADE. Ah well, still learning everyday  I aint perfect either.

An avarage person would be living next weekend in the apartment. So I think maybe in three weeks

I do find it frustrating that he doesn't have any kind of schedule for himself. He is so busy with too many things and doesn't focus, so none of those tasks are coming to an end.
And at the same time, he gets annoyed when I plan on visiting a friend without discussing it with him first. But when I ask for his plans for the week during the weekend, he cannot give an answer.
So I do try to not JADE about this. Although I want to haha. Its frustrating... .
At this point he cannot oversee his life I think. Hope he'll relax some more soon.

[Radcliff]

You make a great point that when we get caught by surprise, or are having a bad day, it is harder to stop ourselves from JADEing or other bad habits.  It happens.
 All we can do is try to do better next time.

The inequality about planning also is familiar.  Tattered Heart has done a great job teaching us by example -- she has told many stories of giving her husband periodic reminders in the week or two before an event that might stress him (like when she goes out with friends), and it seems to work well for her.  But our pwBPD may not plan that way themselves!  It sounds like you are not trying too hard to change his ways, which will mean less frustration for you.

WW

[Maya60]

I think you have a good point about the reminders. Especially in this more stressful period he has. Yesterday he told me he was not feeling all too happy over the last weeks, so I am glad it makes more sense now.
I also talked to my therapist this morning and went over the fight and focussed on an alternative way of expressing myself without following me feelings too much. So no JADEing.
Exactly what you say: we do our best but sometimes even our feelings take over in a negative way.

Yes, I am happy he's in therapy. So I feel like I am not the person who should try to work on changing his behaviour. I can only tell how it affects me, but it are his emotions and not mine. Very hard sometimes, but I try to repeat this to myself as some kind of mantra

Thank you so much for listening and advising on my situation. It means a lot to me

[pearlsw]

Hi Maya60,

I want to echo WW's point about not trying to change someone. I feel like I've seen a lot of relationships that devolved into one person trying to monitor, fix, and change the behavior of another person without ever looking at themselves.

I think an important takeaway of this site is that while it on the one hand provides a lot of insight about our partners, it also gives us an opportunity to work on ourselves in a concentrated way - if we choose to take up that challenge.

It would be easy to characterize some of the things my SO does as pretty awful, and some truly are, but he also at times is genuinely doing the best he can and simply wanting to be loved in that big messy, sometimes painful, way he does it.

Just to follow up, where do you see your relationship with your partner going at this point?

with compassion, pearl.

[Maya60]

Hi Pearl,

The only thing I did force in some way is therapy. But I said that I would go too, so we both could work on the issues in our lives. Well, it did work and he still goes every two weeks and seems to enjoy it as well.
But next to this, I try to focus on myself, my bounderies and how to give our relationship a firm base by taking good care of myself and supporting him.

I am happy in my relationship at this moment and I hope we will continue this way. I will start my new job in October, so living on my own (and he in his apartment soon) feels like the best step in taking it easy.
I do find it a bit sad to not see him everyday like I do now. But I also know that he's doing fine living at me temporarily since he does not feel the tension of being in "his/our" home. He does not like my appartement due to the noisy neighbours and location too close to the city center.
And the other option, living together somewhere else, would only be possible if we buy a house. And I don't think it is the moment yet for such a big decision.
Besides, it would give him the time to take responsibility over his own life and building a better relationship with his kids.

Maybe in one year we can take a look at buying options. Cos I still think he is the partner I really want to spend many years with

[Radcliff]

I'm glad to hear that you are happy in your relationship
What are some of the boundaries issues that you're working on?

WW