Setting boundaries - Am I on the right track or do I need to adjust?

[Woodchuck]

Woodchuck,
I totally understand the desire to be hugged by someone and allowed to cry on their shoulder.  That feeling isn't as intense for me right now, but I was definitely feeling that yesterday.

I was at a museum exhibit that showcased artwork and poetry from people who suffered from mental illness, including depression.  The piece that will never leave me was painting that contained the words "I went to a funeral and I wasn't crying for the deceased.  I was crying for myself and knowing this was this was my only opportunity to have people hug me."  We are not alone in that longing.  That knowledge doesn't make the longing any less intense, but it has helped me to know that someone else really understands it.

You are correct, it does make it a bit easier to know you are not alone.

I reached a point where I could not deal with the constant turmoil.  I did what I could to try to depersonalize and stop spinning the wheel, and all the other things being suggested, but I was so hurt that I wasn't functioning well and my best was not all that great.  I decided at that point to initiate the therapeutic separation that I had been asking for.  I hoped that it would provide the space for me to deal with my feelings and approach the marriage with less hurt driving my actions.  Long story short, my marriage ended 16 months later, so it's not a course of action I would recommend taking unless you are willing to accept that possibility.  Short of that, therapy, sleep, exercise, eating well, and other self care can sometimes bring the level down a bit and maybe help you get your feet under you again.  WAY easier said than done.

At this point, I am expecting my path to end up being very similar to yours unfortunately. As I told my W today, what I really want is a thriving relationship with her and for everyone in the family to be happy.  She claims that she is happy and that she is not angry.  The only thing that makes me unhappy is her.  I know this is not true in the sense that I am not responsible for her happiness and I know in my heart that I have the best of intentions (similar to the Travis Tritt song).  You are very correct that self care is very difficult.  I find comfort in food and find it hard to exercise even though I know it makes me feel better.

I will briefly weigh in on the cat pill thing.  I think you got the heart of the boundary idea and it took courage to implement it, but I think you may have missed the mark on the situation in which you chose to enforce it.  If the goal of the boundary was to get her to stop saying that she doesn't need you, I don't know that refusing (no matter how politely) to do something for her would be connected in her brain with her comments about not needing you.  MAYBE if you said "I would do this for you, but I'm still hurting from you saying that you don't need me. I feel like giving the cat its pill would be proof to me that the hurtful statement you made was unfounded and unfair, and I want you to either admit that you need me, at least enough to save you the trouble of giving the cat the pill, or show that you really don't need me by not asking anything of me." then she'd see some sort of connection.  Do you see how convoluted that argument is?  I'm not thinking there was much chance that she had any thought of her comments about not needing you when she asked for you to give the cat the pill, or when you refused.  Do you think it was connected for her?

The goal of the boundary was not to change her.  I know that is not possible.  The boundary was more about me and me not catering to her every need and demand as I tend to do and to try to do so in a gentle way.  I honestly do not think it would matter if I worded perfectly or if I was given the words directly from God or some higher being.  She has stated over and over that she does not care how I feel and her actions back her words.  She does not show any concern or care for any hurt that I have. 
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If you were to say "I am hurt by your comments that you don't need me and your lack of acknowledgement/appreciation for what I do for you.  Until I see those from you I will no longer be doing things that you request." that would be a bit closer to the boundary that you were trying to enforce.  But since her hurtful comments and the requests she makes are probably separated by enough time for her to not link them... .it's probably just going to feel like passive aggression. 

I appreciate that insight and I think that you are correct in that would a good way to approach things.  I honestly do not know how she could not see the link.  I typically hear several times a week that she does not need me or want me to do anything for her.

WC

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[Radcliff]

First, I want to say that I've lived a life similar to the one you describe, for many, many years, and it's hard to put into words how it feels.  To be an earnest, caring person, totally motivated to do the right thing, and to feel like you're damned if you do and damned if you don't, it's the pits.  I'm sorry you're in that spot.

Then, you come to a place like this, start learning tools, and try to apply them, and you realize that it's tough to apply this stuff in the real world with a pwBPD who seems to make it more difficult.  Dang it!  The tools here do help, but it's also true that getting results in the real world is messy and full of setbacks.  One of the best ways to use the help on Bettering is to take a particular situation you'd like to Better, talk about it with us before hand (background, what tools, etc.) then try to put it into action, and come back here to discuss results and any adjustments to the game plan.

My answer to the car painting is simple.  Actually, I try to keep my answers to everything simple, since for me at least, I'm trying to deal with a situation when I'm upset and life is not cooperating and anything complicated never survives the test of battle.

All of the background on the car painting sounds totally familiar.  She flip-flopped, didn't follow through, and you felt bad about it.  That's pretty frustrating.  Then she paid half the bill.  I really liked pearlsw's advice.  Call it a victory.  Don't overthink it.  Skip is pointing out how dire your situation is.  You need victories.  She paid half the bill, and showed some follow through with a concrete action.  Fine, wait a few days until you pick up the car if you think it lowers the chances of a snooping accusation.  Or just tell the truth and say you were getting your stuff out of her car and saw it.  Then, give her a simple thanks -- no big expectation placed on her, just a short, nice "thanks."  To which she'd hopefully give you the "You're welcome" that you got.  I have to say, having lived a life similar to what you describe, a simple "thanks" followed by a simple "your welcome" is a great day in my book!

I'd like to add a bit of background from my experience that might help the car painting situation make sense.  One of my wife's "prime directives" is to not let anyone ever make her do anything.  Ever.  My amateur opinion is that it stems from trauma in her childhood.  Whatever the reason, it has a big impact on our lives.  Even a gentle ask from me comes across to her as a demand.  I have given her a half hour backrub, then asked for some back rubbing in return, and the answer was "no," because I asked.  Paying in secret was your wife's way of following through without feeling controlled.  It was the way she needed to handle it.  If you'd given her a huge thanks, it would have highlighted the fact that she'd done something for you, which would have made her feel less independent, and backfired.  As I said above, for your situation, a clandestine payment, followed by a simple "thanks" and a simple "your welcome" is a victory.

Understanding how much control means to our pwBPD is huge.  They will go to extreme lengths to not feel controlled.  Things that are totally normal and healthy to us (like asking for something) feel controlling to them.  Sadly, they end up becoming very controlling, while accusing us of being controlling, which does a lot of damage to our psyches.  This is going to be a recurring theme.  Try thinking and observing for a while about what kinds of things you do or say that your wife might find controlling (I'm not saying they are controlling, just that your wife finds them so).  Can you give us any examples?

WW

[Woodchuck]

The tools here do help, but it's also true that getting results in the real world is messy and full of setbacks.  One of the best ways to use the help on Bettering is to take a particular situation you'd like to Better, talk about it with us before hand (background, what tools, etc.) then try to put it into action, and come back here to discuss results and any adjustments to the game plan.

WW-
I do need to do a better job at that.  I tend to be more reactive I guess.  I am becoming more mindful of myself and how I react to things.  That is why I brought the issue of the car painting here before making a move.

All of the background on the car painting sounds totally familiar.  She flip-flopped, didn't follow through, and you felt bad about it.  That's pretty frustrating.  Then she paid half the bill.  I really liked pearlsw's advice.  Call it a victory.  Don't overthink it.  Skip is pointing out how dire your situation is.  You need victories.  She paid half the bill, and showed some follow through with a concrete action.  Fine, wait a few days until you pick up the car if you think it lowers the chances of a snooping accusation.  Or just tell the truth and say you were getting your stuff out of her car and saw it.  Then, give her a simple thanks -- no big expectation placed on her, just a short, nice "thanks."  To which she'd hopefully give you the "You're welcome" that you got.  I have to say, having lived a life similar to what you describe, a simple "thanks" followed by a simple "your welcome" is a great day in my book!

I'd like to add a bit of background from my experience that might help the car painting situation make sense.  One of my wife's "prime directives" is to not let anyone ever make her do anything.  Ever.  My amateur opinion is that it stems from trauma in her childhood.  Whatever the reason, it has a big impact on our lives.  Even a gentle ask from me comes across to her as a demand.  I have given her a half hour backrub, then asked for some back rubbing in return, and the answer was "no," because I asked.  Paying in secret was your wife's way of following through without feeling controlled.  It was the way she needed to handle it.  If you'd given her a huge thanks, it would have highlighted the fact that she'd done something for you, which would have made her feel less independent, and backfired.  As I said above, for your situation, a clandestine payment, followed by a simple "thanks" and a simple "your welcome" is a victory.

I think that you are spot on with your analysis.  She claims that she had a perfect childhood but there has always been a nagging feeling that there is something deep and dark that she has never talked to anyone about.  I will never forget her asking me what my deepest secret was.  I don't recall what my answer was but I did share something.  When I asked her what hers was, she refused to engage.  I can completely relate to asking for something and being told no.  What makes it very frustrating is when she asks what I would like and I tell her and she says no.  I do know for a fact that she has a very deep need for control.  I have never seen anything like it.  Our conversation yesterday demonstrated just how deep that is.  She will not contribute a 'red cent' to the monthly bills unless she has total control over the finances.  If I don't give her total control and expect her to contribute then she will move out and get her own place where she has total control.  I can see what you mean about the way that she went about the payment for the paint job.  It makes sense but at the same time does not seem 'normal' or healthy.  But it is what it is.

Understanding how much control means to our pwBPD is huge.  They will go to extreme lengths to not feel controlled.  Things that are totally normal and healthy to us (like asking for something) feel controlling to them.  Sadly, they end up becoming very controlling, while accusing us of being controlling, which does a lot of damage to our psyches.  This is going to be a recurring theme.  Try thinking and observing for a while about what kinds of things you do or say that your wife might find controlling (I'm not saying they are controlling, just that your wife finds them so).  Can you give us any examples?

This is my W 100%.  I think that things are progressively getting worse in part due to me not allowing her to demand the control that she has demanded as well as my responding to her with SET as opposed to JADE. On top of that, the children are reaching the age where they are starting to push back and she feels like she is starting to lose control with them.  What I fear is that she is going to severely damage her relationship with the kids by trying to be too controlling.  For example, she is constantly scouring our S14's phone.  I don't mean a cursory check to make sure he is using it appropriately.  I mean going through everything with a fine tooth comb for hours.  It makes him feel untrusted and like she is doing it not out of care/concern but for entertainment.  I have explained to him that there is a good reason for us to monitor what he does on his phone and that there needs to be a balance between privacy/trust and mentoring.  I check his phone on a regular basis and I let him know.  He seems to respect the way I go about it more.  The last thing I want is to push him away and have him find a way to do things behind my back.  I believe he is a very trustworthy kid and has always very willingly admitted when he messes up.
As far as things that I say that are controlling, probably one of the biggest things would be voicing that I think the kids should be going to school due to it seeming like it is overwhelming to her.  I will have to think it some more and see what other things I may say that could come across as controlling. 


WC