Mother-in-law shows signs of BPD, wants to talk to me alone about "fight."

[pumpkin_dreams]

Hi everyone,

I'm glad I found this forum, because I am very uncertain of what to do next, and at the moment, I don't know anyone who can give me advice.

I've known my mother-in-law for 12 years now, but only recently have I begun to suspect that she has a more mild form of BPD. So disclaimer -- she is NOT diagnosed. Her symptoms are: always being afraid of abandonment, wild mood swings out of nowhere coupled with nasty verbal abuse, her misunderstanding / twisting words in mind-boggling ways, and categorizing certain people (me) as either "an angel" or "fake / challenging her role as mother." One of her daughters has told me stories about how my MIL used to abuse her two foster kids -- neither of whom have contact with her anymore. She has had her depressive phases, but to my knowledge has never seriously attempted suicide or physically harmed herself. So yeah -- maybe it's borderline, maybe it's not. But certainly people who have experience with BPD family members might be able to give me some advice on what to do next.

My husband has never really talked about his mother's mood swings or about the abuse of the foster kids. Once when I wanted more information about it from him, he actually started crying. He said he has a lot of suppressed memories that he doesn't want to call up. So as far as I'm concerned, talking to him about any of this is out. He simply can't deal with it. Any time I bring up his mother, he kinda just goes silent.

She has had -- how shall I call it? An "outburst?" -- on me only twice. Once was years ago while she was staying with us for a few days, over me not making enough soup for the three of us. She exploded, started cussing me out, yelling at the top of her lungs, then made tons of accusations about me in general that were entirely detached from reality. My husband just sat there numb during the whole thing, barely said anything. I was shocked and extremely confused -- and at the time only 22. I stayed away from her for months. When we finally had contact again, I was sure to never be around her for longer than a couple of hours, only every couple of months. She eventually said "sorry" around the corner for what happened, but we never talked about what happened that night. We had a decent relationship for a few years that way. I was "the angel" then. I assumed that maybe on that fateful explosive day, she had simply been overwhelmed from staying in such a small apartment with us for 3 days.

Then it happened again about 1.5 years ago. I had agreed to go on vacation with her and my husband over Christmas. She was acting strange the whole time. A couple of days into the vacation, she exploded on me again at the dinner table. This time over -- I don't even really know what. Same thing as before, screaming, making off-the-wall accusations that made absolutely no sense. When I tried to defend myself, she just hammered me deeper and deeper into the ground. She was ruthless with her verbal belittlement of me, downright brutal and nasty. Again, I was so shocked and confused, I didn't know how to react -- and I didn't react well at all. My husband was numb, but at least this time he tried to mediate, albeit with no success.

Since then, I have barely talked to or seen her. I have tried to communicate with her via email to figure out what happened. That has not gone well. She is very slow to respond (sometimes it takes months!) and when she has responded, her messages have not helped me to understand what she needs or wants from me.
I only began to suspect that something deeper is wrong with her due to a recent email she wrote to me. It was very incoherent, mostly was about her past relationships, and I still really didn't get what she was trying to communicate to me. I wrote as much back, which got her furious.

Anyway, now she wants to meet up with me and talk to me about all of this.  
I REALLY don't want to!
I have no chance in a conversation with her. She is quite manipulative and knows how to steer the conversation in her direction.

In my last email to her (about 2 weeks ago now), I suggested that either we find a family therapist and try to solve the problems in that way, or that we agree on a goal for our talk and some points of discussion and agree beforehand not to digress from those. She rejected both ideas and insisted that we should simply meet and talk.

I haven't responded to that last email from her. My husband knows about the current state of affairs, but can't offer advice. I asked one of my two sisters-in-law about whether we can meet up and talk about it (I don't have a close relationship with her, but we have nothing against each other), and she responded that she's really busy and can't find the time.

So... .I simply don't know what to do next. The only action I know is inaction. :-/

I am thinking that perhaps I should meet up with a coach or therapist myself and develop a plan of action. Work on myself and my coping abilities.

Or maybe some kind soul here can give me some much-needed advice?

Sorry for my long-windedness. :-) Kind regards!

[Teno]

Hi Pumkin_Dreams Welcome! There are some very knowledgeable people that can help.

I got this advice from PANDA39.

Below are some book suggestions the first two are about BPD in general and the last one is about BPD Mothers specifically.  I suggest reading one of the first to books before reading the Borderline Mother book, it's a good idea to get a good grounding in what BPD is and what it looks like behind the scenes (behind the chaos).

Stop Walking on Eggshells: Taking Your Life Back When Someone You Care About Has Borderline Personality Disorder by Paul Mason, Randi Kreger
 
have not read this yet - Overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder: A Family Guide for Healing and Change by Valerie Porr M. A.

Understanding the Borderline Mother: Helping Her Children Transcend the Intense, Unpredictable, and Volatile Relationshipby Christine Ann Lawson

Read about the Karpman Drama Triangle https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=108440.0
 
From my experience daughter are so enmeshed with their BPD mothers and are very likely to side with their moms. Only my one SIL can see the reality and I take caution when we discuss her mom. Some people gets treated lovely by the BPD mom so everyone's experiences are different. (the one SIL's husband has never been abused by MIL) My SO forgets the terrible events and I get blamed for it. Unfortunately my MIL presents half truths or conveniently forgets about what was said or discussed.

It just gets messy and explaining yourself just gives more points to argue. Good boundaries are best.

Your own advice is pretty sound "I am thinking that perhaps I should meet up with a coach or therapist myself and develop a plan of action. Work on myself and my coping abilities."

Best
Teno

[Panda39]

Hi pumpkin_dreams,

I'd like to join Teno and welcome you to the BPD Family 

Teno gave you some good book selections, couldn't have made a better suggestion myself    Thanks Teno!

I'm here because my significant other (SO) has an undiagnosed BPD ex-wife (uBPDxw) and they share 2 daughters, so like you I come at things from the outside looking in.  I actually discovered BPD by Googling "Chronic Lying" regarding my SO's ex and the BPD shoe fit.  Regardless if someone is diagnosed or not diagnosed there are a lot of tools here that can be helpful.

It sounds like your husband is just shutting down when it comes to his mom, does he have any interest in working on bettering the relationship with her?  Is he interested in having a relationship with her?  I ask because it's helpful if you are both on the same page and can present a united front when it comes to you MIL. Would he consider Therapy with you to work on the relationship with his mom?

If he does not want to participate how do you think he would handle you working on this on your own, having different approaches to things than he does?  He's living in the status quo, dealing with his dysfunctional mom in the same dysfunctional way he always has... .going along to get along.  How do you think he would handle you setting boundaries with his mom and enforcing them?  Children of BPD parents can struggle with boundaries in general but with the BPD parent in particular.  BPD parents can raise their children to have weak boundaries.  One of the tools they use to do this is emotional blackmail or what we call FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt).

More on FOG... .
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

I bring up boundaries because in terms of your MIL's verbal outbursts you can set boundaries in this area.  If she starts going off, you can tell her that you won't listen to her while she's yelling, if she continues you can ask her to leave or you can remove yourself.  If this is happening on the phone you can just hang up.  Boundaries aren't about punishing someone else they are about protecting ourselves from unwanted behaviors. 

In terms of meeting with her now and you not wanting to then don't, you don't have to.  I like the idea of some therapy for yourself to get that extra support and coaching on how to better deal with your MIL. (it would be great if your husband would go too... .but that's his choice).

You could tell your MIL that you appreciate her reaching out to you but you aren't ready to have this discussion with her yet, that you would like some time to work through some things of your own first.  You are being truthful (without blaming... .blame will trigger your MIL... .so making it about yourself and using "I" messages is helpful) and setting another boundary which is that you will respond when you are ready.  (be aware of the FOG here you might see it in this situation).

If you meet with a Therapist look for someone who has experience with BPD, they will better be able to support you than someone unfamiliar with it. 

Also, before I go I wanted to mention the box to the right ---> each item is a link to more information you might want to check out the "Lessons" section both in terms of your MIL and what your husband may have experienced growing up with her.

Take Care, 
Panda39

[Woolspinner2000]

Hi Pumpkin Dream, 

I'm so glad you found us and joined our online family! You've come to the right spot for sure as we can certainly offer you help and support. 

One of the things I hear you saying is that there is a lot of trouble with Communication Skills. This is very normal with a pwBPD. My uBPDm was the same way. Another behavior you mentioned is called Splitting. Splitting is such a painful thing, especially when you've spent your whole life growing up with it. I'm guessing the reason your DH went numb is because of the triggering response within him from the many times he has gone through this. Combine that with the possible shame he may be feeling now that your MIL's behaviour has come front and center for you to see.

Definitely take a look at the list on the right hand side of our board. T is and has been so helpful to so many of the members here. I would definitely encourage it!

Wools

[pumpkin_dreams]

Below are some book suggestions the first two are about BPD in general and the last one is about BPD Mothers specifically.  I suggest reading one of the first to books before reading the Borderline Mother book, it's a good idea to get a good grounding in what BPD is and what it looks like behind the scenes (behind the chaos).

Hi Teno,

Thanks so much for the book and link suggestions! I have ordered a book in German so I know how to talk about it with the family (I'm American, but have been living in Berlin for years now) but also want something in English for myself. I will check all of this out!

From my experience daughter are so enmeshed with their BPD mothers and are very likely to side with their moms. Only my one SIL can see the reality and I take caution when we discuss her mom.
[... .]
It just gets messy and explaining yourself just gives more points to argue. Good boundaries are best.

Yeah, she hasn't contacted me again, and it's been a week since she said she would, so I doubt that conversation is going to happen at all. Although she seems to deal with things better than the other daughter/sister, perhaps she also still too traumatized to want to talk about it with me.

Your own advice is pretty sound "I am thinking that perhaps I should meet up with a coach or therapist myself and develop a plan of action. Work on myself and my coping abilities."

That is also something I feel good about. I can't control her, but I can control myself and my reactions. I have to get to the point of not having a physiological reaction (i.e. heartrate jumping through the roof) when she gets aggressive. It will take a bit of work to learn to just. stay. calm!

Thanks SO MUCH again for your response! Xx

[pumpkin_dreams]

I'm here because my significant other (SO) has an undiagnosed BPD ex-wife (uBPDxw) and they share 2 daughters, so like you I come at things from the outside looking in.  I actually discovered BPD by Googling "Chronic Lying" regarding my SO's ex and the BPD shoe fit.  Regardless if someone is diagnosed or not diagnosed there are a lot of tools here that can be helpful.

That sounds intense. I wish you all the best with continuing to handle the situation.

It sounds like your husband is just shutting down when it comes to his mom, does he have any interest in working on bettering the relationship with her?  Is he interested in having a relationship with her?  I ask because it's helpful if you are both on the same page and can present a united front when it comes to you MIL. Would he consider Therapy with you to work on the relationship with his mom?
[... .]
If he does not want to participate how do you think he would handle you working on this on your own, having different approaches to things than he does?  He's living in the status quo, dealing with his dysfunctional mom in the same dysfunctional way he always has... .going along to get along.  How do you think he would handle you setting boundaries with his mom and enforcing them?  Children of BPD parents can struggle with boundaries in general but with the BPD parent in particular.  BPD parents can raise their children to have weak boundaries.  One of the tools they use to do this is emotional blackmail or what we call FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt).

After reading this response (thank you!), I decided to talk about the whole thing with my husband last night. It was the first time in quite a while that we've discussed it at length. He is usually a very calm person, but this topic is one that always gets him riled and emotional. I hate being the one to bring him there mentally. :-/ However I can't feel guilty for discussing things that need discussing, even if it's unpleasant for him.

Yes, he does "shut down," and he says that's the response he learned a long time ago with her. No, unfortunately he's not interested in changing that for the time being. :-( I asked him whether he would consider asking her to do mother-child therapy about all the gunk that happened in his childhood. No, he says, not anytime in the near future. He's managed to forget a great deal of what happened, and doesn't want to remember. :-( He'd rather just keep the status-quo.

I told him then that I don't think that's a permanent solution, and doesn't sound very healthy. It's disappointing to me that neither of them are ready to face the problems and deal with them... .but I guess I have to put my disappointment aside and focus on improving my coping methods.

He then said that if I can't deal with his mother, I should just completely stay away from her. I told him that I also don't see that as a permanent solution.

After lots of back-and-forth, we agreed I should get coaching/therapy to deal with my reactions to her lashing out at me (while agreeing that her behavior is CERTAINLY not normal or excusable!), and the next time she goes berserk on me, we follow this plan: I quit talking (since anything I say just makes it worse), he tries to calm her down (which, based on experience, won't work) and then we leave TOGETHER. That's a plan that we can both live with. That way he doesn't actually have to stand up to his mom, and I don't have to feel like I am dealing with it all alone (which was the case the other times).

In terms of meeting with her now and you not wanting to then don't, you don't have to.  [... .]

You could tell your MIL that you appreciate her reaching out to you but you aren't ready to have this discussion with her yet, that you would like some time to work through some things of your own first.  You are being truthful (without blaming... .blame will trigger your MIL... .so making it about yourself and using "I" messages is helpful) and setting another boundary which is that you will respond when you are ready.  (be aware of the FOG here you might see it in this situation).

If you meet with a Therapist look for someone who has experience with BPD, they will better be able to support you than someone unfamiliar with it.  

I will take this advice and try to formulate the email as much with "I" messages as possible. I won't see her again until after I've gotten some help and worked on myself a bit more.

Again, thank you SO MUCH! *hugs*

[pumpkin_dreams]

Splitting is such a painful thing, especially when you've spent your whole life growing up with it. I'm guessing the reason your DH went numb is because of the triggering response within him from the many times he has gone through this. Combine that with the possible shame he may be feeling now that your MIL's behaviour has come front and center for you to see.

Yeah, I think there is a great deal of shame there on his side. I can't imagine having grown up with this. :-( I am so sorry for children who have to deal with this during their formative years. He isn't ready to get therapy or change the relationship with his mother yet, but at least in daily life, he functions amazingly well (albeit with hiccups). I will try my best to push my disappointment about him not wanting therapy aside, work on myself and try to focus on the positives.

Thanks so much for the links to other threads! I will check them out. :-)

Xx

[Panda39]

pumpkin,

Good job recognizing what you can (yourself) and can not control (MIL/Husband).  You are starting off here much further along than I did when I first arrived.  I was one angry Panda trying to control a bunch of people... .my SO, his ex, their daughters... .that I couldn't control.

What I needed to learn was that the only person I could directly change was myself and that by changing myself there could be ripple effects that changed the dynamics I had with other people.  My SO like your husband was passive, and I too wanted to take the bull by the horns, but he wasn't ready to do that... .I could have tried to push him (bad for our relationship) or I could try pointing things out and letting him come to his own conclusions, I could have been aggressive toward his ex but I instead chose to avoid her... .lower the drama, at first I wanted to rescue his daughters from their mother and I pushed too hard so I backed off and let them come to me instead.

So your actions may influence your husband and his mother, but they may not.  The other part of this equation is doing what is right for you and what fits your values.  Regardless of what is right for your husband and MIL you need to do what feels right to you too.

I like that you and your husband have agreed on a plan to get you started... .that you are on the same page    Good for him to have that difficult conversation... .He clearly loves you 

You've already nudged your husband into having an uncomfortable conversation with you, which I think is good. I'm with you stuffing and avoiding isn't the best way to cope, but as a kid this is probably what your husband was able to do in order to protect himself from a verbally abusive mother. Not voice his own opinion/defend himself because doing so would likely aggravate his mother further and avoiding her all together was a way to avoid her verbal abuse in the first place.

By seeking out Therapy you are shining a light on the problem and it will be harder for your husband to completely avoid it.  So you doing what you need to do for you and your own relationship with your MIL may influence how your husband looks at things, you are showing him another way to approach his mom.  That said your husband could reject all of this and just continue to do what he has always done because that is what is comfortable for him. If that is the case then you will have to have some acceptance there.  You could also discover that your husband's lower contact with his mom is the better way to go, that having a boundary around an abusive person is the better choice, but you have to walk your own journey and come to your own conclusions about what works best for you.

I'm really glad you've joined us... .now you have a whole group of people that can walk that journey with you. 

Take Care,
Panda 39