Confusing 'No Contact' with Silent Treatment

[Enabler]

My wife and her 'recruits' believe that I am abusive... .and some have suggested I am NPD.

Common suggested treatment of a narcissist is 'no contact' or 'low contact'.

It kinda makes sense that since she believes that I am NPD, she would be advise to go 'no contact'. To me this is appearing as being ignored or silent treatment. To her, this is the advice she has been given... .To avoid any contact with me.

Since I don't believe she has any cognition of her own involvement in the chaos, it fits that she should just see any interaction with me as me "hurting her" with my NPD... .Therefore, reinforces the no contact idea.

The more she gets hurt by communicating with me and me telling her the "truth" the more it reaffirms to her that she should 'no contact' me and that I am the abusive one.

However, like being scared of the suspension bridge because I doesn't look safe (yet cars drive over it every day), just because she is hurt by the things I say, doesn't mean that they are neither untrue, or hurtful to the rational individual.

Therefore we find ourselves in a trap where she is treating me as an abusive person because she is hurt by the guilt and shame she is experiencing from the 'truth' I speak, however the method with which she is using to 'treat' me is in fact abusive.

Does anyone have any experience in such a death spiral of a pwBPD 'treating' a non with commonly prescribed NC or LC, because the communication the pwBPD experiences is deemed abusive... .even if communication would not be deemed in anyway abusive had it have been with any other regular person. Her experience is abuse and her account to others is the feeling of abuse and hurt... .therefore the advise back is commonly used weapons against abuse... .NC/LC. This of course is reliant on the recruits having no cares for the facts, context and validity of the communication or nil focus on facts with overriding focus on the pwBPD's feelings about the communication.

Enablers brain fart for the day   

[Cat Familiar]

I don't have any experience about the LC/NC part of your question, but the other issue--being labeled NPD and/or "abusive"--yes, I'll chime in with my experience.

Since pwBPD have such a weak and insecure self-identity, it makes sense that those of us who are self assured and have a strong sense of our own personal identity could be labeled as narcissists. It makes me laugh because it took a lot of self examination, extensive reading and tens of thousands of dollars of therapy for me to have a "healthy self" since I was raised by a BPD mother and the concept of boundaries was entirely new until I was in my thirties. I guess I've accomplished much in this regard in that I can be perceived as NPD instead of weak, insecure, and unsure of myself.     

To address your second point--again, keeping in mind that pwBPD easily perceive statements of fact and opinion as criticism, it's understandable that candor often is labeled as "abuse". I kept running into this with my current husband after the honeymoon phase ended and I had frustrations about his irresponsibility regarding leaving messes in our shared living space. I had no clue that he was a pwBPD in the beginning because he's highly functional in so many regards.

So I attempted to address my complaints in a very polite way, for example, asking that he be mindful of taking his wet clothes out of the washer (instead of leaving them in there for several days to mildew and stink up the place--of course I omitted this part of the communication). To my amazement, my negotiation skills which had always been very effective in the past with other people, were completely useless with him and subject to massive misinterpretation.

Instead of a quick mea culpa and a promise to be more attentive, what my communication yielded was: "You hate me!" "I'm a terrible person!" "You want me out of your life!"

I was completely befuddled. I just wanted his damn laundry out of the washer so that I could use it for my clothes. (I didn't want to begin finishing doing his laundry, because that would be a slippery slope and soon it would be added to my list of responsibilities.)

Then, in addition, my request was perceived as "abuse" and I was added to the list of all the people in his life who have "abused" him. I'm laughing as I think of how long that list must be.

I'm very sorry, Enabler, that your wife has so many "enablers" for her skewed perspective of you. I think she likely is so filled with shame and self-loathing that it takes a lot of her energy to project all that upon you.    

[Enabler]

Somewhat ironically this situation leads to being 'abusive' when asking someone to stop 'being abusive'. I know that my communication could have been improved but what other way is there to say "Can you please stop talking to me like a  please" ... .and no, that's not a question to the board or to her.

Alas all she would hear in that statement is "like a  "... .

Maybe if I reworded it to be "Please desist from speaking to me as if I was a  ", however I don't think that she is so much of a wordsmith that the distinction would be that meaningful to her.

[Cat Familiar]

My husband has a great ability to be incendiary when accusing me of being "abusive" in my communication to him. It's like the idea that my "truth telling" (that's how I perceive it, at least) gives him the green light to be a jerk. Then, if I'm not mindful, I get triggered because I thought I just said something that was to the best of my ability, truthful and kind as possible, and now he's being nasty.

The only way I've figured out to get around this, is to: 1. avoid saying anything that could be taken as criticism and 2. when I've inadvertently done #1, then to remain as Spock-like as possible.

If I keep my Spock-like demeanor against all his "abusive" onslaughts, then I'm criticized for being "unfeeling" and "uncaring" but I still keep my center and I count that as a win.  

Usually the Spock persona, should I maintain that for the duration, makes his attacks less "fun" and he gets bored with the effort of trying to irritate me because it doesn't work.

[Enabler]

I suppse the biggest point here is, the suggested treatment of an abusive person is to go no contact. What happens when a sensitive person who perceived abuse is told to treat their abuser with the standard operating procedure even though they are not being ‘abusive’ in the commonly perceived form. How does one even start to unravel that, it’s not even possible to discuss it?   Argggg

[empath]

In the winter months last year, my h very much disliked talking to me because it left him with the shameful feeling that he was bad. Of course, he told his support system that I was the problem and that I wasn't willing to work on the issues. My communication seemed "abusive" to h because it made him feel ashamed - but it was objectively healthy communication that addressed an issue. He claimed that we were abusive to each other.

Eventually, being at home was a constant reminder of his actions, and he had a mental health crisis and decided to move out. His support system was pushing him to divorce me and offering to help because I was so awful to him. I suppose divorce is slightly better than the other options - at least it can't be done impulsively and the L told him that he needed to make sure that my d and I had a stable place to live.

I don't think it is possible to discuss it rationally. For pwBPD, their feelings are the reality for them. Now, h feels better and wants to come back home.

[Red5]

… two cents ; )

My udxw is on the phone with her _____, she is giving this poor person “the what for”… the conversation seems to escalate, and then it’s abruptly over… I look over, and say… “everything good to go?”, RU ok “Q”… is it “fixed” now?

My udxw looks quite cross now, and says to me… “that person practically hung up on me”, undxw is now in “frowny face” mode.

I say, “so did you get that ____ taken care of”… undxw responds, “so do you think I was rude”…
[This is a “$hit Test”]…

I think for a moment, and consult my inner checklist, which says “DON’T RESCUE”… so I respond to her, “well “Q”, “yes… you were rude to _____ on the phone just now, and I would have hung up on you too”… “sorry”…

[BRACE FOR IMPACT]!

BOOM!

*Red5 is now an @SS_/O\_ ,
*Red5 is now indeed ~> himself rude!
*Red5 is not nice to “me”, in fact he is MEAN to me (udxw).
*Red5 is now re-assigned to the ST treatment.

Wash, rinse… & repeat >; )

Fact, BPD’ers cannot handle facts!
Fact, BPD’ers will not respond to “cut and dry” logic.
Fact, BPD’ers will “turn it round” on the Non every single time.
Fact, BPD’ers will quickly, and predictably place ALL blame for their actions back onto the Non!

There ya go !

Red5

[Notwendy]

This is an interesting topic as both myself and my H have experienced the other one as being hurtful when it is not intended, due to our specific backgrounds.

Also, when someone operates from victim perspective, they can take on persecutor role and be abusive, but since they are in victim mode, they don't see their actions/words as abusive.

One confusing issue is that people who are abusive are often not all bad, and have some genuinely good aspects. Also, if there is no physical abuse, abuse is not as easily recognized by people close to them.  My FIL did some things that I think were emotionally and verbally abusive. If we grow up with it, we may not recognize them as abusive. Reading Patricia Evans' books on verbal abuse was an eye opener as she defines them and I recognized many of the examples as happening to me in my marriage and also from my BPD mom. But because these behaviors were "normalized" to me growing up, I didn't recognize them, beyond knowing that they were hurtful. My H grew up with a critical father and so sees criticism in things I say that I did not intend, and they feel hurtful to him. When he tells me things his father said, I know they are verbally abusive but his father was also a decent guy and my H sees this as normal- in addition to his father being a role mode.

So, I was not being verbally abusive, but my H was interpreting it as being cruel and critical.  This would put him into victim mode. The normal response in his FOO was to feel attacked and retaliate and be verbally abusive back. If I would ask a question he would say things to me like " you are beating me with this, you are hammering me"- really violent terms that I wasn't doing. Then, he'd retaliate by saying the meanest things that come to mind.

With my mother it is interesting. She really sees things as being unfair to her. To me, it looked like my father tried to make  her comfortable  and wouldn't hurt her, but she sees it differently. When speaking to her, I realized the slightest thing could feel hurtful to her. Even a small suggestion meant to be helpful to her feels as if we are either ordering her around or invalidating her. I think she does see me as being a horrible abusive person to her when I have boundaries with her, yet, she is the one who is verbally and emotionally abusive.

As frustrating as this is Enabler, I think it is impossible to change a way a person perceives something. I do not know about how to manage the legal consequences of being accused of abuse if this were to happen. If she is being advised to be NC with you, then you can't change that either. It is frustrating to see the relationship take this course, but for a relationship to exist, both people need to want it to. If she really doesn't want it - then she will make her choices. I don't know if it is possible to change this.

[Enabler]

Also, when someone operates from victim perspective, they can take on persecutor role and be abusive, but since they are in victim mode, they don't see their actions/words as abusive.

I wholeheartedly agree with this. As far as my W is concerned I believe she takes the stance that I deserve it or that she is protecting herself from me by behaving in such a way. Her lack of perspective over the whole picture coupled with friendly naive validation from her cheerleaders reinforces and blinkers her for seeing how her actions could be seen in the cold light of day.

Last night was interesting, I asked for simple clarification about something going on with the kids that day, she aggressively responded in a harsh tone. I clarified the basis for my question in a matter of fact way stating why my question was reasonable and she continued to be aggressive with me. Anyway, D10 and D8 protested saying "Why do you have to speak to each other like this? I'm going to leave this family!", my W jumped into victim mode exclaiming that she didn't know why I was speaking to her in that way... .both kids said simultaneously "but you're the one who's speaking to him in a horrible way!". I left the room in silence and went to get changed. When I came back down things were far more civil and I changed the tone with some upbeat conversations over dinner. Much of the sense of anger comes not from the actual words from her mouth (although there's plenty there to feel attacked by) but the tone and body language of the communication... .she is completely unaware (or suppresses awareness) of how her body language and tone is aggressive when communicating with me (and not with others). I guess this is the result of denying her inner anger, denying her role in conflict and denying her perpetrator role... .Is this the origins of passive aggressive behaviour both conscious and subconscious? "I am defending myself from the perceived attack from him" hence conscious passive aggressive behaviours like silent treatment, being aloof, avoidance and stonewalling... .coupled with subconscious passive aggressive behaviours "I'm not angry with him" (denial of anger), body language, voice tone, procrastination... .anger always finds a way to leak out.

I'm not happy that the children have to experience this, even though they are becoming a great sanity check for me... .but like it or not they are going to have to live with it, grow up with it and make sense of it themselves. Whilst I am still there I will gently encourage them to be more conscious and see the behaviour for what it is independently from what W says it is. Unprompted conversations with them about a bunch of different topics such as mobile phone use highlights they are extremely aware of what goes on and are not at all reliant on what she says to formulate their own opinion. I encourage them to discuss candidly about what they see about me and her.

Enabler   

[Notwendy]

Where is she with the divorce proceedings.

I understand your stance is to passively let this run its course, but if she truly wants out, the relationship seems like a painful situation for both of you. It's hard to know what she is feeling. If she truly wants out, any conversation with you would be uncomfortable for her in this situation.

The kids getting involved created a triangle situation. You felt vindicated when they pointed out her part in it. You emphasized that you were the reasonable guy in this and she was the aggressor. This one up/one down relationship style might actually feel hurtful to her and although you aren't classically abusive, she may see it this way.

[Enabler]

Decree Nisi has been granted, financial discussion happened when she requested, I participated... .it has not been raised again or points addressed for over a month. I raised some challenging questions for her which conflicted with her cake and eat it view... ."you want a divorce, you also want this... .the two are incompatible".

I can deal with the pain.

I agree with you re the kids and I attempt to avoid the one up/one down position. I ask in a neutral way "what do you think about that?", "how do you feel about that?". I attempt to give a neutral response but it's an opportunity for them to air their views without being shot down for saying something "soo horrendous" as my W would do. If anything I am more likely to put forward my own weaknesses in an attempt for them to see my fallibility. I am creating a non-judgmental (positive or negative) for them to express their views, I'm conscious not to give my opinion for the very reason you mention, and also because I don't want it to be seen as gaining Daddies favour if they slag their mother off to me. I don't want it to be an unspoken family secret. 

[Enabler]

So, I let perfect behaviour slip a couple of nights ago. She left for church at 6 and returns at midnight long after pubs typically close... .yes, that correct, Church then pub... .it's a UK thing... .she calls it fellowship. I don't know what happens during 'fellowship' but in my information void an educated guess leads me to suspect it involves her and OM 'fellowshipping' alone together validating how bad their respective spouses/STBex's are. Anyway, since OM has moved nearer 'fellowship' seems to have continued much later than it did before so, again, in my information vacuum I'm thinking 'fellowship' kicks on to his place. I was agitated, fighting shadows and wrestling with the mental need to say something and be heard. So, she returns at midnight and I decide to get up and go downstairs and say what I needed to say... .

Enabler - Where the heck have you been? Pubs were shut hours ago, I don't stay in looking after the kids so you can go back to lover-boys flat, this is massively taking the p!ss.
W - I don't have to answer this question
Enabler - we had this conversation 2 years ago and here we are 2 years later in the same place. I have to be up at 5 for work tomorrow, this has knock on impacts.
W - Leave me along
Enabler - Why, because I'm too close to the truth?

She walks upstairs and go to our respective rooms.

Last nights response was to bring up the divorce process again, she had this weird upbeat feel to her, as though she was actually excited, or happy about the conversation. Maybe I just validated her "he's abusive and I need to divorce him" view and lifted the growing "he's not been abusive recently and I feel bad about doing this" view. By shaming her I hurt her feelings which in her mind is abusive. Is she attempting to get control back again? I'm kinda wise to the game now... .and more importantly I'm less concerned about that outcome... .I am disappointed that I let my self down.

You can only kick a dog so many times before it bites your foot.

Enabler

[Red5]

... .You can only kick a dog so many times before it bites your foot.

Very TRUE Enabler !

Your evening reminds me of many of my evenings, long ago in my first marriage... .same scenario... .FexW (future ex wife) leaves as soon as I get home from work, of else just goes straight from her work... .to join up with her "friends" for "ladies night"... .we also had small (at that time) children... .three kids... .under the age of ten.

Yeah... ."ladies night"... .which one time; resulted in her "hooking up" with a young sailor who "just got off the boat"... .ah' yes... .the memories I have of her  ... .and our twenty two years (almost) of "marriage"... .that particular incident was back in 1995.

It wasn't the first, nor would it be the last... .

We would eventually divorce in 2006.

I was severely codependent ... .and I do mean severely... .

That experience hardened my heart, that's for sure... .and I am sad to say that my heart is still a lump of coal... .I have inadvertently and subconsciously ensured that no woman will ever hurt me again like that... .even though I am now remarried seven years / eleven years in this relationship (aforementioned)... .what was I thinking... .

A good topic('s) for the next 'T' session... .

No Enabler, I think you did the right thing, sometimes you have to "call them out"... .enough is enough,

I have always been of the mind, if one of the party of two, who are matrimonially coupled, .decides to "step out"... .then do get a divorce, end it... .then "step out"... .otherwise the first, commits emotional murder/abuse to the other... .and that's no way to have to live.

Yes, "they" need to get a "clear title" before their next adventure... .but that's not how it goes... .sadly.

Hang in there Enabler!... .its ok to get mad and speak your piece Brother... .yes it is!

Red5

[Enabler]

its ok to get mad and speak your piece Brother ... .yes it is!

I just wish it was seen for what it is... .rather than 'abuse'.

I agree with you that one has an obligation to one's self and the other party in the marriage to make a CLEAR divide between 2 relationships. How can one make a clear decision and see the new relationship for what it is? The foundations for the new are built on quicksand at best... .or in this case, complete total and utter deceit.

[Enabler]

P.S. Ladies night is normally on a Monday

P.P.S. 'Band Practice' Tuesday

P.P.P.S. 'Seeing a old work colleague' is Thursday night

P.P.P.P.S. 'Spontaneous drinks' Friday

P.P.P.P.P.S 'Planned drinks' Saturday

[Red5]

The foundations for the new are built on quicksand at best... .or in this case, complete total and utter deceit.

A little Bible on a Monday morning... ."Matthew 7:24-29"
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

This OM seems to me to be quite the obstinate character... .he is breaking so many covenants, behaving so badly (imho)... .quite the @ss in fact he is !

Karma will come round to collect on him one day, that is for sure Enabler.

I do not have to see my ex very often, but she does come round to spend time with my (our) S32(autistic) from time to time, she lives in the next state over now... .long story short, she is still with the man she left me for, that is twelve years now, she had a child with him at forty (2008'ish), she is no longer pretty, in fact she looks as though she should be in a hospital, she in fact looks like a meth addict to me... .pretty terrible... .I am sure her demons are still with her... .

No, good will not prevail in a house built on the sand... .your wife hopefully will come to realize this one day... .this OM seems to be bent on self destruction, and as well all around him... .as I said, he seems to be quite a selfish s-o-b to me... .

Hang in there Enabler, keep doing the 'right thing', stay on the 'high road', take care of your baby girls... .we are all rooting for you !

Red5

[Enabler]

Thanks Red, yet again you have touched me with your kind words of support.

OM is doing what he does instinctively. Like many he does bad things believing them to be good, seeing no way that what he does could be bad because he is a good person. I guess it depends on how we view our starting gate. He believes himself to be a good, honourable and righteous man who makes good, honourable and righteous choices. Bad or immoral choices he may deem as ‘tough’ choices, I dunno, I am not in his head. I do know that he is a thoughtful although maybe reword that to calculating person, I remember watching him on holiday as he mulled over how to write and email signing off a construction site so they could get the next stage of funding to complete the next stage... .he knew they weren’t quit at stage completion but knew that they needed the money to progress. He ummed and arrred for a bit then his lack of professional integrity got the better of him and he signed it off. Now I’m not going to suggest  that someone couldn’t find similar examples in my life, there are numerous, but, this an example of how he twisted a choice to do the right thing ... .or to do the RIGHT thing, turn a blind eye and funnily enough keep the surveying contract going. No one got hurt and he got what he wanted. Just that little skew which edged the decision in his conscience and personal gains favour.

He has eyes on the prize... .and I don’t deserve the prize because I am bad... .apparently

[Notwendy]

I don't know this OM or your wife, but my hunch is the "prize" to him won't be so appealing once he gets it.  This also goes for your wife. "Forbidden fruit" is often more appealing - when one can fantasize about it - than the actual real thing and both of these people are dysfunctional. One can't know for sure but I don't see the combination as stable for long.

 

[Enabler]

I am sure they will both very much enjoy sitting at home looking after the kids together rather than doing their endless social activities together as they currently do... .oh no... .he'll just go to the pub as he did with his STBexW whilst Enabler W stays at home getting angrier and angrier about how she's got such a tough life and being abandoned. OM will of course not understand what her problem is because "that's what I've always done!"... .to mention just one glaring example.