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Author Topic: Frame control method?  (Read 506 times)
LeneLu
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« on: December 23, 2018, 01:02:47 PM »

Hello, I have been reading on up tactics to recognize and respond to emotional manipulation (like this article: https://www.brookhavenretreat.com/cms/blog-22/item/3004-signs-emotional-manipulation-relationships). 

In some articles I have read, I have come across the concept of "frame control method". Frame control really is relevant to every human interaction but the most colorful examples of it come from the domains of business and seduction.  "In brief it’s about having the strongest, most unmoving view of the world when in a group of 2 or more people."

Is anyone familiar with this concept?  Has anyone applied it when dealing with BPDs?  If so, could you share the scenario and how you reflected their feelings back to them successfully and what that looked like?
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Harri
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« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2018, 03:20:21 PM »

Hi.



What about it do you find intriguing?  How do you see something like this techniques playing out when using it with your sibling for example? 

I am interested in hearing your viewpoint though I will say that I have done a bit of reading on it but am not too familiar with it at all in terms of using it as a way to interact with people, BPD or not.  From what I have read of it, it seems to be a more provocative way of taking the power position in a relationship.  I'd rather try to stay out of drama and have a strong sense of who I am by using boundaries, self-awareness, self differentiation and other more effective communication strategies whether it be a personal relationship with a disordered family member or a work relationship.
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LeneLu
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« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2018, 09:18:54 PM »

I guess because I will be seeing my sib at a family event soon, I am trying to come up with tactics to manage the, hopefully minimal, interaction.  I know that "staying distant and not feeding the drama" is the recommended course of action, but I feel that is a passive approach that she will actually feed on more; like she will interpret it as fear.  I want to exude strength and confidence. I am confident that I have made the right decision in going nc with her up til now.  But, I want her to know that it is not a position that I am going to concede... .I want to control the frame.
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« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2018, 10:43:48 PM »

Hi LeneLu

Excerpt
Is anyone familiar with this concept? 

I haven't come across the particulars of the "concept" you mention, but I get the general idea from what you are posting, so lets see if I can help.

Excerpt
"In brief it’s about having the strongest, most unmoving view of the world when in a group of 2 or more people."
Excerpt
Has anyone applied it when dealing with BPDs?

There are times for an unwavering position. I was in a relationship with a girl with BPD, at one point her anger got so intense that after the episode was over and she could calm down I told her: "I need you to be nice to me, no questions asked"

Of course she questioned it, I told her not to argue with me on this. It worked, not once was she "mean" to me after.

Excerpt
she will interpret it as...

In this case the point was not about what she would make of it, its about something I needed us to be clear about and would not "negotiate" with her. I know it sounds like I wasn't taking her into account as much as I could have, but she did know it was an issue, and we've talked about it before being an issue: this was the defining moment, we have to finalize it one way or the other or it will keep eating at us.

She could have said no, and I was ok with that.

We "broke up" again for some other reason, so its not a magic bullet to fix a relationship. Its about setting boundaries that you will not compromise on, not about "who is more stubborn", which brings me to the next scenario:

My dad started our family business, we have long term clients/tenants we have to deal with for years at a time. He's the "resolute and unwavering" type. He would not concede any point, wanted the client to acknowledge his "superior bargaining position" and would impose the rules, which to be fair had been agreed upon in writing before, so he was in his right to demand they be followed to the letter.

It caused a lot of conflicts, clients would do exactly the opposite of what was asked just to spite him, they would drag their feet and delay any action until they were overdue, it caused arguments and even threats of legal action.

My dad couldn't handle it, it caused problems at home, financials were strained and opportunities for "better tenants" missed.

So he handed it over to me.

I hard-balled the most conflicting clients: Either shape up or get out. Two got out, made a huge mess about it (broken pipes, missing items, unpaid bills). One other threatened to leave but he went around me and appealed to my dad; in order not to "lose the client" he overruled me, so I set the terms yet again: I will not be responsible for upkeep (HUGE issue, they'd break it, called us to "repair" it, they'd break it again), you pay it, legal action if you don't. He agreed.

Another conflicting client I actually made a compromise with: he would get a new contract with more favorable terms for us, he would get follow ups on unpaid bills and would get charged extra for any late payments. He mostly followed through, a few hiccups but nothing major like before.

We have been tenant-conflict free for over a year now, my dad struggled with them for close to six years, and some years prior with previous tenants. We still have one problem tenant, but my dad still handles him as a "grandfathered client", he's been around for as long as the business has been running.

So my story so far has been about my own background, now on to how that relates to your situation.

Excerpt
I want to exude strength and confidence. I am confident that I have made the right decision in going nc with her up til now.  But, I want her to know that it is not a position that I am going to concede... .I want to control the frame.

Exuding strength is not about having the other person acknowledge it, its about sticking to the consequences of your actions.

In your case, by being unwavering and "projecting" that "power" outwards you are taking the role my father once did. You are correct in the sense that you are entitled to your actions, still the other person could react in the opposite way to show YOU that you will not break THEIR strength.

By taking a milder approach, (not to toot my own horn but) sort of like I did with agreeing to better terms where possible and following up with consequences (actually collecting late fees, following up with bills) even when unforeseeable circumstances arose (dad overruled me, I had no control over that), you could better "control the frame" of the situation: it doesn't have to be "conflict", its a "negotiation", even if you have better bargaining power.

Excerpt
but I feel that is a passive approach
Sometimes the best offense is a good defense 
So what if she thinks its fear, as long as you're not afraid it is of little consequence.

Excerpt
... .she will actually feed on

It is true that might happen, "extinction bursts" are a thing. Things might get worse before they get better; by controlling your own actions (keeping no/limited contact like you decided on) instead of trying to get her to do something (get her to acknowledge you are not conceding on this), you get her to work around you instead of you reacting to her shenanigans.

I speak from my own experiences so take that into consideration. Long story I know but hope that helped!
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Harri
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« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2018, 11:36:05 PM »

Snap, I really like your examples here. 

Excerpt
In your case, by being unwavering and "projecting" that "power" outwards you are taking the role my father once did. You are correct in the sense that you are entitled to your actions, still the other person could react in the opposite way to show YOU that you will not break THEIR strength.
This outward focus just ups the ante and seems to work against you.  I used to operate that way.  I was tired of being used and taken advantage of and being hurt so I would take control and turn things around.  Sure I protected myself but I also became the aggressor and the bully.  My intentions, or why I was doing what I was doing, made no difference to not just the person I was protecting myself from but also any others who were watching.  It was not good and not healthy.

I used to see taking that sort of stance as strong and assertive but found it was the exact opposite.  I actually did a lot of damage to myself being that way.

I am not trying to discourage you.  I want you to succeed and see the strength you already have within you.  Focusing on how your sister will view you is, I think, a mistake.  I get it, but I think there are more effective and better ways. 

We can talk more about it if you want.
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LeneLu
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« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2018, 10:34:06 PM »

Although I don't know of other options, I guess I have been feeling like NC is coming from weakness, not strength... .I am so fatigued that I can't even communicate anymore.  When I made that decision, I didn't know that I was dealing with a BPD or that that was actually the best approach.  The anger over the extinction burst came and I didn't know what to do with it, except not respond, which felt like backing down. 

My husband tells me that I have been strong for sticking to my boundary. However, her "frame" feels stronger than mine, because despite the fact that she has no leverage, she acts like she does... .like she has something I want (as Snap predicted), In fact she has nothing I want. How can she go on believing she has something to hang over me? Or, like I am begging her "Please, find a different way of expressing your anger to me," instead of telling her "PLEASE FIND A DIFFERENT WAY OF EXPRESSING YOUR ANGER TO ME!"  It is so bizarre how she has turned it around in her head.  Anyway, I have no idea how I will or how to comport myself in her presence.  No matter what I do, I will be accused of being "fake".  But, as Snap also says, it doesn't matter what she thinks.  But I would rather have her think that than have to be in close proximity to me.

Seeing that this is the first time I will have seen her in two years, does anyone think she will try to take this opportunity to pull me into a conversation?
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Harri
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« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2018, 10:56:49 PM »

Hi.   

No contact is a tool just like any other tool.  It is neither weak nor strong.  It is a choice.  It works well for some and not so well for others. 

Excerpt
The anger over the extinction burst came and I didn't know what to do with it, except not respond, which felt like backing down.
  I think I understand.  I used to think not speaking up and taking a stand was weak and meant I was backing down.  I don't see it that way any more.  Whether not responding is part of NC or limited contact, it takes strength to be okay with letting things be as they are even when it may give the other person the impression they are on top. 

Excerpt
My husband tells me that I have been strong for sticking to my boundary.
I agree with your husband. 

Excerpt
However, her "frame" feels stronger than mine, because despite the fact that she has no leverage, she acts like she does... .like she has something I want, when in fact she has nothing I want.
Well, not to argue, but (!) it sounds like you want her frame... .and in this case, her frame is just smoke and mirrors.  You know that.  You are letting her define you here.  Let her be who she is and you be you.  You are not fake.  You are not just putting out smoke and mirrors. 

Excerpt
How can she go on believing she has something to hang over me?
She has a disorder that affects her ability to control her emotions and causes poor executive control and distorted thoughts.  She can believe whatever she believes.  It does not make it true.

Excerpt
Or, like I am begging her "Please, find a different way of expressing your anger to me," instead of telling her "PLEASE FIND A DIFFERENT WAY OF EXPRESSING YOUR ANGER TO ME!"  It is so bizarre.
  I actually think that is a kind way to phrase it I just think she will have a hard time executing it.  I don't think she can.

Excerpt
Anyway, I have no idea how I will or how to comport myself in her presence.  No matter what I do, I will be accused of being "fake".
This is a no win situation here because you are c=basing your success and how you will act on how she perceives you.  She is disordered.  Her thoughts, feelings and beliefs are distorted. 

Don't let her define you.  Be who you are.  Reframe the way you look at her.  She is hurt and damaged and she projects that onto you.  You do not have to take that projection on.

Does that make sense?  I am trying to be gentle and direct with my words here.  This is important for you to understand. 

Be who you are.   
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LeneLu
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« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2018, 08:35:09 AM »

Harri,

This is the best advice I have ever gotten.  Thank you for this gift (of all the days to receive it, too.)

"... .because you are basing your success and how you will act on how she perceives you.  She is disordered.  Her thoughts, feelings and beliefs are distorted.  Don't let her define you.  Be who you are.  Reframe the way you look at her.  She is hurt and damaged and she projects that onto you.  You do not have to take that projection on."

And, your candor is much appreciated. I don't want things sugarcoated.  You are soo good at this! Joy to you on this day.
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« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2018, 10:35:33 AM »

   I am glad you found it helpful.   

Much joy to you as well.  Enjoy your Christmas dinner!   

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Harri
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« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2018, 02:11:38 PM »

How did you make out Lene Lu?  Care to give us an update?   
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LeneLu
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« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2018, 10:44:19 PM »

Hi Harri,

I haven't seen her yet.  The event is next week.  I am hoping that she will be on her best behavior because there will be people there that she wants to impress (or keep believing that she is just this fun, interesting and "above it all" person--more smoke and mirrors.) This is what I am betting on, but I will be sure to give you all a blow by blow afterward. 

Having said that, I actually have gotten a lot of anxiety relief from your previous post in my waking hours.  My dreams are another story.  I have been having some weird dreams in anticipation of seeing her and she does really evil things.  I managed to respond to them calmly.  I am hoping this is my subconscious preparing me for the worst. My T told me to envision the meeting as an exercise to prepare as well.

I have been reading up on self differentiation that you brought up in another thread.  I most definitely have experienced it.  Is it common among non-BPD?  I wonder why my T has never mentioned it to me.  It was clearly at play in my family system.

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« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2019, 01:24:52 PM »

I have been reading up on self differentiation that you brought up in another thread.  I most definitely have experienced it.  Is it common among non-BPD?  I wonder why my T has never mentioned it to me.  It was clearly at play in my family system.

we all have a level of differentiation, which is synonymous with emotional maturity. its not something fixed in place, but can improve/grow.

on the flip side, you cant/dont want to be completely differentiated, you would never be able to relate or attach to others.

if you want to read more about family systems and self differentiation, murray bowen (family systems theory) is your man: https://thebowencenter.org/theory/
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« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2019, 07:23:29 PM »

Hi, LeneLu. I’m not familiar with the title of “Frame Control Method”, but I think it fits in here. I think one thing that comes into play here are boundaries.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=167368.0

Values also come to mind here. We have our values and we’d like these to be unwavering. Our boundaries protect our values.

Do you think that any of this ties into the Frame Control Method?
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« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2019, 08:33:07 PM »

Hi LeneLu

I see once removed gave you a link to more information on differentiation and family systems theory by Bowen.  I think you will find it helpful.  I need to read it yet again.   

JNChell brought up boundaries and there is definitely a connection for me between boundaries and differentiation.  Applying boundaries based on personal values while working towards differentiation is, I think, very important for most of us on this board.   Being undifferentiated does seem to be fairly common here and not just on this board but across the site.  We often talk about co-dependency and enmeshment or being a fixer or rescuer and all of them sound like poor differentiation to me when I read them. 

Talk with your T about it and ask what she thinks.  Let her know it resonates with you.  I will be interested to hear what she has to say about it. 

About your dreams; it does sound to me like you are working things out in your dreams.  I do the same thing when working through an issue.  The good news is I think it helps me come to terms with things or what I have to do or just feel better.  It could be wishful thinking on my part, but I don't really care as long as it works.  Regardless, I think the fact that you are dreaming about this stuff means that you need to do some work and in that sense the dreams are beneficial as a signal.

For me one of the benefits of not going NC with my family meant that I had to confront my fears and I had to work through my issues.  I was driven to do so as I was so undifferentiated that I could not even buy a bottle of dish washing liquid without thinking of what my mom would say if it was not the one she used (this was after I moved out).  I needed the contact to work on me.  It was good for me and it worked for my situation.  Some people choose NC and do very well.  The thing is, we still need to work on us even if we are not around the pwBPD.  Otherwise these fears, thoughts and distorted perceptions of them do not change and the hurt stays buried and that is not good for us.

No contact, limited contact... .they are just tools to help us heal.

Can I suggest that you also post when there is not a crisis or event coming up?  These issues (boundaries, differentiation, determining our values) all need to be worked on regardless of the amount of contact we have and it is much easier to do in calmer times.

I will be thinking of you over the next few days for sure.  I have no doubt that you will do just fine.  You might feel nervous and uncomfortable but that is to be expected.  Just be who you are and remember about her smoke and mirrors.  She does not define you.
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