pwBPD keeps thinking I am a narcissist

[Depression = 72% of members]

Hey everyone,

My pwBPD keeps trying to convince me that I am a narcissist.

At one point I was really wondering this myself. I brought it up to my therapist. He actually laughed out loud so we pulled out the DSM and read about NPD. I couldn’t even really identify with any of the criteria for it. I understand am okay with the fact that as humans we all have some level of narcissism within us. It’s because we all have an ego, but to take it to that level to identify as a narcissist is a whole different thing.

What do I even say when she is going off about that kind of stuff? She’ll go on and on about how I hurt her, out her through hell etc. This seems completely backwards to me.

Any suggestions?

I had snapped at her a few days ago after being basically stranded at the airport. Thankfully I never boarded the plane. I had blocked her for the first time but only lasted a day or so.

Not sure I know what to do or say anymore. She knows she has BOD and isn’t really doing anything about it so I fear she will always remain in victim state.

[merkaba1]

Hey everyone,

My pwBPD keeps trying to convince me that I am a narcissist.

At one point I was really wondering this myself. I brought it up to my therapist. He actually laughed out loud so we pulled out the DSM and read about NPD. I couldn’t even really identify with any of the criteria for it. I understand am okay with the fact that as humans we all have some level of narcissism within us. It’s because we all have an ego, but to take it to that level to identify as a narcissist is a whole different thing.

What do I even say when she is going off about that kind of stuff? She’ll go on and on about how I hurt her, out her through hell etc. This seems completely backwards to me.

Any suggestions?

I had snapped at her a few days ago after being basically stranded at the airport. Thankfully I never boarded the plane. I had blocked her for the first time but only lasted a day or so.

Not sure I know what to do or say anymore. She knows she has BOD and isn’t really doing anything about it so I fear she will always remain in victim state.

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[Weejie]

It's just possible that she was looking up stuff related to her own condition, as she seems to be aware of it and thought in some distorted way that NPD fitted you. I have had a similar experience, yet my BPDso would never accept that she had a disorder. Nevertheless, she's obviously looking up stuff and comes up with diagnoses concerning me that don't correspond at all. I have found that it doesn't help to contradict her and that seems to fit with advice on this site.

[Caco Canepa]

I've had a similar situation in which my uBPD wife (now separated) has often called me a narcissist and a psychopath, and accused me of gaslighting her. It was very confusing. I talked to my counselor/psychiatrist about it and asked whether this could be the case. My counselor said that gaslighting is done by the person with more power in the relationship — and in our case it was my wife's behavior that dominated in our house.

The other day I stopped by her place to pick up our daughter, and my wife had some self-help books sitting out, including some about surviving narcissistic abuse in relationships. I didn't say anything, but I did find it frustrating and upsetting — she's seeing a counselor as well, but I think her counselor has bought into her self-view of a "victim" and "survivor", even though my wife was the one dishing out emotional and physical abuse on a daily basis. She's not getting the help that she needs, and will likely continue with her BPD patterns of behavior which marked her previous relationship, her inability to hold down a job for more than 3 months, and the destruction of our marriage.

I've accepted that I can't do anything to help her, and that she might just have to hit rock bottom on her own. I also accept that she might never hit rock bottom — her parents have always been there to bail her out of bad financial decisions, and she'll likely have a new boyfriend/husband who will float her as well. All the while, she's thinking that I'm a psychopath or narcissist. That bothers me, but soon she'll be out of my life except for co-parenting, and I'm learning to not care what she thinks about me.  Good luck to you.

[Enabler]

Howdy all,

Here's my take on how and why a pwBPD believes the Non to be a Narc.

We all have a selection of things we want for ourselves, sometimes they involve other people, sometimes we can get them for ourselves. Based on a set of rational and emotional criteria we bucket these things into NEEDS, and WANTS.

Typically the NEEDS bucket will include things that severely impede our health and well being or are required for a functional task to ensure something bad doesn't happen. e.g. I need a new pair of shoes because the ones I have have holes in the bottom and I am getting wet feet. I need a new job because I don't have one and I need income.

The WANTS bucket is filled with things that we aspire to have and we perceive would improve the quality of our lives, improve the efficiency of some process or enable us enjoy a leisure pursuit. e.g. I want a new carbon framed road bike, a want a new pair of shoes to go to the upcoming wedding, I want steak for dinner.

As part of growing up we develop an emotional skill of "Delayed gratification", i.e. delaying buying, eating, consuming something such that we receive a greater gain at a later date. It enables us to not do/buy things on impulse and enables us to think about the bigger picture. One of the ways that we do this is by placing things into these discrete buckets based on a realistic set of outcomes.

Since our pwBPD feel emotional pain which they cannot tolerate (and some say feel like they will die) when they want something, their perception is that since all things are life and death, nothing goes into the WANTS bucket, EVERYTHING goes into the NEEDS bucket. So, put yourself in their shoes, someone that says that they love you is denying you something that is going to kill you... .you'd probably think that person is cruel, lacks empathy, just thinks you're an extension of them, likes to see you suffer... .that it's allll about them.

The second part of my conclusion is how a pwBPD denies their side/involvement in chaos. Like a tornado, chaos rotates around a pwBPD, they can see the chaos and they can sense the bad things that are happening to them... .but they have no perception of how they are causing the chaos. Often a pwBPD will have a perception of who they are (which will likely not match reality at all), lets call it a delusion or fantasy view about themselves. To protect this delusion/fantasy, one has to deny any personal responsibility... .personal responsibility = guilt/shame = emotionally painful = death. If you deny personal responsibility for the tornado and/or the cause of any negative feelings... .well then everyone that you have a negative interaction with is hurting you, intentionally... .and has no empathy for the pwBPD.

Being accused of being a Narcissist is almost nailed on.

Enabler 

[Enabler]

she's seeing a counselor as well, but I think her counselor has bought into her self-view of a "victim" and "survivor", even though my wife was the one dishing out emotional and physical abuse on a daily basis. She's not getting the help that she needs, and will likely continue with her BPD patterns of behavior which marked her previous relationship,

T works in mysterious ways. Initially T requires the client to feel comfortable, the easiest way to address this comfort is allow a person to speak and allow the person to feel like you are validating them. T's are aware that people come to T with perceptions of who has wronged them and a rigid view of their narrative. Shattering this delusion with a hammer is likely to result in the client walking away, painting them black, never to return again and not being healed... .so... .the T will peel the proverbial onion over time allowing the patient to come to their own conclusions. Cracks in their mask will eventually appear when the client becomes comfortable and trusting (as long as they keep going to T, which they often don't) and allow the client to unwrap themselves. The answer you come to yourself is infinitely more powerful than the answer given to you.

The fact that she is still going to T is good (for her). The fact that she is reading books on Narc is probably also good in a perverse way... .she she will likely have to acknowledge to herself at some point that the shoe doesn't actually fit and... .her new knowledge doesn't actually make her feel at peace with herself. Understand why she thinks this and you can find peace in understanding why she has the book... .and how it will bring her no respite from her inner demons.

[once removed]

i like Enablers take here, especially regarding the therapeutic relationship.

I understand am okay with the fact that as humans we all have some level of narcissism within us. It’s because we all have an ego, but to take it to that level to identify as a narcissist is a whole different thing.

this is very true. we all have degrees of narcissism, and there is healthy and unhealthy narcissism.

i cant very well relate to the traits of NPD either, but i can see lots of ways that unhealthy narcissism manifested in my relationship, at times still does.

What do I even say when she is going off about that kind of stuff? She’ll go on and on about how I hurt her, out her through hell etc. This seems completely backwards to me.

Any suggestions?

yes. have you seen this: https://bpdfamily.com/content/listen-with-empathy

the idea is to listen to what shes driving at, get to the underlying feelings. the underlying issue here isnt the word narcissist or that shes trying to convince you you are one. shes expressing hurt and frustration (not in the clearest or most mature way) and wants to be heard. the trick is to hear it. summarize the key point(s) shes making, without getting caught up in minutia. if things are breaking down, tell her you want to take some time to reflect on it. do so... .then come back in times of calm and try to get on the same page.

[Enabler]

She talks about you hurting her because you do... .the point is that anyone in an intimate relationship is likely to hurt her. They say that someone with BPD is the equiv of a 3rd degree burns victim. The slightest brush and you will hurt her feelings nd cause her an enormous mount of pain... .

But here’s the problem. If you’re a burns victim you’re in hospital, with dressings on, with drs and nurses tending to you telling you how your burns are going to heal... .you can see it, I can see it, the drs can see it, there’s no denying it, there’s no normalising it, pretending it doesn’t exist. No one is ignorant to it... .but it’s not like that when your emotional core is damaged, you or I and even the patient can’t see the damage, for them it’s their normal.

So, you do hurt her, you really really really do, but you could probably be the kindest person on the planet, move heaven and earth for and she would still be hurt by you.

Go to YouTube and watch all the ‘Having a life worth living’ clips, this is deeeeeeeeeep deeeeeeeeep empathy schizzle time.

https://youtu.be/_qv18jgU-Js

I cried

Enabler

[ortac77]

Enabler

You really have a good way of explaining this, I know in my experience this is absolutely true. My pwBPD's history is of being damaged by others, firstly family of origin but nowadays of course me. As you rightly say however kind others are is not really relevant, the damage is internal and unseen and therefore any interaction can cause pain. Of course this doesn't make the other person a narcissist, it is simply that the 'other' also has needs and wants.

The difference as you rightly say is how we define these things, the problem being IMHO that when living with a pwBPD these can become distorted for both parties. I know my priorities are to act in my own best interest in matters of health and mental wellbeing, it is not the material things that will satisfy those things, the chaos that is a feature of BPD can leech across to my own thinking at times however and it becomes harder to separate the two things in my head thus the chaos of BPD can distort my own thinking if I am not constantly alert to that possibility.

Also even when acting in my own best interests to meet genuine needs this is perceived by the pwBPD as 'selfish'.

Having lived with this for a long time I can still be confounded by it but reminders like yours here do help me to 'reset' my thinking and remind me that whatever my pwBPD says to me (often cutting and cruel) I am simply doing the best that I can and compassion for the illness goes a long way to keeping me sane, and when I hit compassion burnout, I have to look to myself first because that is probably a solid clue that I am not attending properly to my needs

Ortac

[Enabler]

Hey Ortac77,

It's tough when someone has an unjustified unchangable victim narrative... .yes, once they may have been a victim of their FOO, but now they are a victim of themselves but incapable/unwilling to see/abandon that narrative in favour of taking hold of adult personal responsibility.

Unfortunately this means that as the 'healthy' partner we have to be absolutely assured of ourselves. We do not have the fortunate benefits of having a partner to help balance ourselves. I guess this is why people in a BPD type relationship rely heavily on a third stabilising agent (could be a T, or could be a trusted pastor or trust impartial grounded friend) to give the healthy partner the "I'm okay, you're okay" that we all need. By their very nature a pwBPD tries to destabilise and create chaos in sync with their own chaotic feelings.

One thing I was pondering with a work associate this morning:

Imagine 2 people on a roller-coaster sitting next to each other... .If one person denied to them-self they were on the roller-coaster then looked at the other they would see someone screaming and shouting for no apparent reason... .If they deny the external factors they in theory could deny they were even moving relative to the other person... .Why is this person screaming and getting excited  they might ask!
However... .If that other person was to get off the roller-coaster and stand in the viewing area... .Well... .How could they deny they were not on a roller-coaster... .How could they ignore their own screams and wails of excitement and fear as they went down the big dipper.
Denying your anger requires someone else to be angry with you... .It requires a scapegoat to project onto. I am not longer participating in her anger... .So she has nothing to project onto anymore. Which is likely why she is troubled

It removes the validation that she is right in her warped thinking... .

My Therapist said this was likely to happen, she would feel isolated and vulnerable... .Her dysfunction would become more visible to her
SHE NEEDS PEOPLE TO DANCE WITH HER, hence misery loves company.

Enabler

[Caco Canepa]

Enabler --

Really appreciating the roller-coaster analogy, and your thoughts about the possibility that my ex's therapist is working a long strategy with her.

After a few weeks of relative peace, she disregulated on me yesterday. It's amazing how powerfully my perception can get distorted when she starts on me. Luckily I have the tools and the opportunity to disengage from a confrontation now, and let her run her course on her own. It is likely that by this morning when I pick up my daughter, she will have forgotten that she was even raging yesterday evening.

But wow — I felt woozy for a couple of hours afterward even after cutting off the conversation. Part of it was getting emotionally triggered myself. And part of it was pondering whether she was going to be able to do some damage to me in some way (via her lawyer, or to my possessions still at the house, or by trying to scramble plans with my daughter).

(I'm not convinced that her therapist is going to give her an objective view to see her own actions. She's a women's-specializing therapist, and I'm getting a sense that this T's purpose is to stroke egos and tell her clients, "Oh, you poor thing, you've been getting oppressed by all of the men in your life." )

I'm much better this morning. Just going to see what the ground looks like after yesterday's disregulation. Talk soon! Caco

[flyguy]

You are not alone. My uBPDw has called me a narcissist more times than I can count. I asked my counselor if I had any of these traits and he practically laughed me out of the room... .