It's worse than I thought

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I've been having supper with my D12 almost 13 in a couple of days every Wednesday for about a month as the judge ordered when my exUBPDw and I went to the early intervention case that was initiated when I filed an affidavit before her affidavit for special chambers which was dropped because she's backing out.

My D12 has been alienated from me for almost a year and she's finally coming back home slowly though, the judge said that they don't want to have it all happen at once that it's not good for the kids. I understand the logic but my ex kept her back but would send the other two kids. I think that it was a good idea on the judges part because it gave us a chance to repair the r/s she was in good spirits, well her birthday is coming up in a couple of days.

She was really open with me this last time usually she does not say much to me, most of the time I ask but she backs off and I don't press. I feel bad for her because she has way worse than I did in my childhood. There are different circumstances my dad wasn't borderline he has an traits of an anxiety disorder, ADHD and narcissism.

She told me about what is going on at home, the youngest has periods where he is really angry when he's at my house there are a couple of times that he was going too far and I told him to cut it out but usually I give him time to decompress and let him do the things that he enjoys. He's pretty frazzled by the time that he gets back to my house he'll be gone for two weeks this time so I suspect that he's going to be really frazzled. He fights back with mom and D12 said that she put  his arms behind him when he hit her it gets physical. D12 also mentioned the time that uBPDw dragged exSD20 up the stairs about 4 years ago a yaer after we broke up.

There's fighting I know that she's not fond of S7 because he's the only kid that she rarely says anything about and by the time that he gets back to me he has displaced anger but like I said he gets better on my time.

She said that mom is being really weird because she's accusing me of drugs, she says that she invites her friends over when mom isn't around because she openely accuses her of using cocaine, her friends are baffled by her mom's behaviour. I told my D12 that mom just had a long drive and she's stressed out some people don't handle stress very well. It has been Christmas vacation and she has all of the kids her bf is gone. She talked a little bit about uBPDw's exbf and how the her sister, the child that they had together while she was still married to me says that "mom doesn't like bf anymore" My D12 tells her sister that her dad shouldn't be saying these things to her she said that the kids are told to not respond back when he calls or texts them because he asks to talk to their mom and says things like she isn't in love with him anymore. D12 also recounted the time that he had kicked her and exuPBDw out of the house and he said that he was going to end his life, he flipped over the kitchen table, threw things at the wall etc... .

I didn't have it like that when I was a kid she has depression, she cuts and has anxiety I can see why with the things that she deals with plus she has gender dysphoria. We had a really nice talk I told her I like talking to her and she said that she likes talking to me too. She also says that she misses her oldest sister the SD20 I mentioned earlier she says that she wishes that she would break up with her bf because of how he treats her if they mention a boy he gets insecure and starts to interrogate her sister about men etc. I told her that some people have a scrip that run through their minds it's not realistic that he's jealous but he's insecure and in his mind he starts to feel threatened and thinks that her sister is going to leave her etc.

She'll be back home with me full time in three months I get the impression that she's looking forward to coming back.

On a side note I was supposed to have to go to special chambers next week because my exuBPDw wanted to have full custody of the kids which is impossible because there is no change in circumstances I don't do drugs I've been at the same job for the last 16 years or so I don't drink etc - nothing has changed if anything I've been the one that's been stable after our seperation.

She wanted custody of the kids because her bf left, that means less income and she's making 40000 more than when we separated and child support was set at a much much lower wage. I want it changed she cancelled special chambers saying that she isn't going to pursue full custody but that leaves child support I went to mediation with it, then to provincial court, then to early intervention and it kept getting pushed back. I appeared 20 times at least in divorce court 19 or those times we didn't talk about the parenting order that I had drafted we talked about money and it took the judge 2 minutes on my appearance to set child support. Why is it so complicated to get changed? I'm not salty about it, I called an L and he asked if the matter was still open and I said yes he gave me case management to look up to resolve it - which would be good for the future if we had case management because we're dealing with the same judge and you would build a rapport with that judge he or she would see a history with my exuBPDw. That's the next thing that I'm going to do is file for case management.

[Mutt]

I've been having supper with my D12 almost 13 in a couple of days every Wednesday for about a month as the judge ordered when my exUBPDw and I went to the early intervention case that was initiated when I filed an affidavit before her affidavit for special chambers which was dropped because she's backing out.

My D12 has been alienated from me for almost a year and she's finally coming back home slowly though, the judge said that they don't want to have it all happen at once that it's not good for the kids. I understand the logic but my ex kept her back but would send the other two kids. I think that it was a good idea on the judges part because it gave us a chance to repair the r/s she was in good spirits, well her birthday is coming up in a couple of days.

She was really open with me this last time usually she does not say much to me, most of the time I ask but she backs off and I don't press. I feel bad for her because she has way worse than I did in my childhood. There are different circumstances my dad wasn't borderline he has an traits of an anxiety disorder, ADHD and narcissism.

She told me about what is going on at home, the youngest has periods where he is really angry when he's at my house there are a couple of times that he was going too far and I told him to cut it out but usually I give him time to decompress and let him do the things that he enjoys. He's pretty frazzled by the time that he gets back to my house he'll be gone for two weeks this time so I suspect that he's going to be really frazzled. He fights back with mom and D12 said that she put  his arms behind him when he hit her it gets physical. D12 also mentioned the time that uBPDw dragged exSD20 up the stairs about 4 years ago a yaer after we broke up.

There's fighting I know that she's not fond of S7 because he's the only kid that she rarely says anything about and by the time that he gets back to me he has displaced anger but like I said he gets better on my time.

She said that mom is being really weird because she's accusing me of drugs, she says that she invites her friends over when mom isn't around because she openely accuses her of using cocaine, her friends are baffled by her mom's behaviour. I told my D12 that mom just had a long drive and she's stressed out some people don't handle stress very well. It has been Christmas vacation and she has all of the kids her bf is gone. She talked a little bit about uBPDw's exbf and how the her sister, the child that they had together while she was still married to me says that "mom doesn't like bf anymore" My D12 tells her sister that her dad shouldn't be saying these things to her she said that the kids are told to not respond back when he calls or texts them because he asks to talk to their mom and says things like she isn't in love with him anymore. D12 also recounted the time that he had kicked her and exuPBDw out of the house and he said that he was going to end his life, he flipped over the kitchen table, threw things at the wall etc... .

I didn't have it like that when I was a kid she has depression, she cuts and has anxiety I can see why with the things that she deals with plus she has gender dysphoria. We had a really nice talk I told her I like talking to her and she said that she likes talking to me too. She also says that she misses her oldest sister the SD20 I mentioned earlier she says that she wishes that she would break up with her bf because of how he treats her if they mention a boy he gets insecure and starts to interrogate her sister about men etc. I told her that some people have a scrip that run through their minds it's not realistic that he's jealous but he's insecure and in his mind he starts to feel threatened and thinks that her sister is going to leave her etc.

She'll be back home with me full time in three months I get the impression that she's looking forward to coming back.

On a side note I was supposed to have to go to special chambers next week because my exuBPDw wanted to have full custody of the kids which is impossible because there is no change in circumstances I don't do drugs I've been at the same job for the last 16 years or so I don't drink etc - nothing has changed if anything I've been the one that's been stable after our seperation.

She wanted custody of the kids because her bf left, that means less income and she's making 40000 more than when we separated and child support was set at a much much lower wage. I want it changed she cancelled special chambers saying that she isn't going to pursue full custody but that leaves child support I went to mediation with it, then to provincial court, then to early intervention and it kept getting pushed back. I appeared 20 times at least in divorce court 19 or those times we didn't talk about the parenting order that I had drafted we talked about money and it took the judge 2 minutes on my appearance to set child support. Why is it so complicated to get changed? I'm not salty about it, I called an L and he asked if the matter was still open and I said yes he gave me case management to look up to resolve it - which would be good for the future if we had case management because we're dealing with the same judge and you would build a rapport with that judge he or she would see a history with my exuBPDw. That's the next thing that I'm going to do is file for case management.

[ForeverDad]

She said that mom is being really weird because she's accusing me of drugs, she says that she invites her friends over when mom isn't around because she openly accuses her of using cocaine, her friends are baffled by her mom's behaviour. I told my D12 that mom just had a long drive and she's stressed out some people don't handle stress very well. It has been Christmas vacation and she has all of the kids her bf is gone.

To me that would sound like a bit of invalidation, that is, excusing your ex based on her recent circumstances.  Your ex has a pattern of making allegations, more than just recently, doesn't she?  This reminds me of some new members who would describe terrible behaviors and then add "but my ex/spouse loves them".  I may be jumping too quick with this perspective, but be careful that your making excuses for her mother aren't invalidating D's own observations and conclusions.

Review the topics on validation and invalidation (1.11, 1.12, 1.13)
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=36.0;all

Can someone back me up (or talk me down) on this thought?

[Mutt]

Today is her birthday I texted and called her today. I like that you pointed that out, that's something that I had no considered but now getting feedback from someone else - you are correct. I recall when I was younger and to do this day my family would invalidate what I said about my dad they would make up excuses as well. That being said I believe that the same would apply here with D13.

She's definitely started noticing the erratic behaviours she's been there full time for several months and I think that my exuBPDw and her bf broke up around around 6 months ago. It was relatively quiet up until that point - something big happened in her life and she started focusing on people that were a source of soothing for her. She was incredibly difficult I told my mom I didn't miss this at all but I had to defend my boundaries and thankfully gradually she started to leave me alone.

With uBPDecw's bf out of the house then there is going to be another person that she is going to direct her behaviour at - D13 is the oldest, I know that uBPDw doesn't like S7 as much as the other kids because he gives her grief, he fights back with mom. She doesn't mention him as much as she mentions the middle child S10, he has a learning disability, traits of GAD and is like a validation medallion for her because she looks like an amazing single mom tackling on all of these difficulties, getting him help and defending him from dad.

My D13 wants to become a psychologist she has been reading books on psychology I told her that I would help her with school. She told me about the mental illnesses that she was reading about and she mentioned BPD. She's too young to put the two together and I can't talk to her about that I have been trying to address the behaviours without being blunt about it. What I was trying to convey to her was emotional dysregulation because I know my ex, the long drive, spending time with family, watching the kids on her own.

The day is here I was wondering when the kids were going to notice. Thankfully she'll be out of the house half of the time again now. I'll have to pay attention with not defending her mom's behaviours and invalidating her and talk to her in an age appropriate way. I could have said something like Wow, I'm sorry that happened to you, you don't deserve to be treated that way!  Thanks for telling it to me straight ForeverDad.

[kells76]

Hi Mutt;

What a tough situation you're in. I really feel for you. SD12 is about to turn 13, too.

It sounds positive, though, that she's willing to be so open with you about her mom's house. I hear you trying hard to meet D13 where she's at.

I agree with FD that telling D13 that "mom had a long drive" might not have come across the way you wanted it to. It may have come across to D13 as invalidating. You deserve HUGE   and kudos for being open to seeing the situation that way and being open to trying something different instead. Validation is not always an intuitive skill and it takes practice.

I wonder how it would go with you and D13 if you did a "do-over" with her. Maybe next time you talked you could mention something like "Remember when you were telling me about the things Mom said, and I said that Mom just had a long drive (etc)? Well, I thought about it, and I realized that I wasn't actually listening you very well then. I'm sorry. If I could do it over, I would probably ask you how you were doing with all that" (or something) -- how do you think that scenario, or something like it, would play out with D13?

You're doing some really hard work and learning a lot of new ways to listen. 

[Mutt]

I wonder how it would go with you and D13 if you did a "do-over" with her. Maybe next time you talked you could mention something like "Remember when you were telling me about the things Mom said, and I said that Mom just had a long drive (etc)? Well, I thought about it, and I realized that I wasn't actually listening you very well then. I'm sorry. If I could do it over, I would probably ask you how you were doing with all that" (or something) -- how do you think that scenario, or something like it, would play out with D13?

Thanks kells76 I read your reply but didn't reply until today. My D13 came over yesterday while I was on the phone with my mom to pick up her card that my mom sent. I liked your idea and I brought it up to her about how we talked about the road trip the other day and that I wasn't happy with how I said what I said because it doesn't sound like I was listening to her. I told I'm sorry that you went through that experience with mom and that treatment towards her is not fair or right. She was in a really good mood and said don't worry about it I talked bad about mom all of the time to my friends, we'll my friends talk about their parents in general it's not that I don't like mom but she can be a pain.

[kells76]

Great job    What you're doing with D13 is giving her experiences of "sharing things with Dad goes well". That's a valuable foundation.

I can't remember if you're familiar with Dr. Craig Childress -- he's a child and family psychologist in the U.S. He has written a lot of articles (free on his website) about the dynamics of "parental alienation", or perhaps more properly the impact of a disordered parent on a child, especially when parents are separated. His handout on "ju-jitsu parenting" helped me and DH quite a bit. Here's the link: www.drcachildress.org/asp/admin/getFile.asp?RID=63&TID=6&FN=pdf

On page 6 he talks about "intentions in relationships". Basically, he means, what do you want when you're with the other person? Parents can want their kid to DO something ("intent to mature", i.e. you have to do your homework), or parents can want to UNDERSTAND their kid ("intent to be with", let's just hang out). Both are important for kids.

When you ask questions like "How was that for you? What was that like for you? How are you doing with all that?", you're showing your kid that understanding them in that moment is even more important to you than making them do something. That can feel pretty good to a kid and help them feel valued by you.

I say all this as a stepmom who finds herself wanting to just Explain to the kids How Things Really Are. So it's a work in progress for me, too.

 

[Turkish]

Way late to the party here,  but I did sound invalidating.  It's hard to be put on the spot like that to come up with a response.  Looks like you rescued it though. The fact that you brought it up likely built trust.  You demonstrated that you feel safe being vulnerable with her.   Interesting that she admitted that she complains about mom to her friends.  She felt safe enough with you to tell you that. 

I think it's significant that she remembered your ex's abuse of your SD from years ago.  That trauma stayed with her, sadly.

[ForeverDad]

It's hard to be put on the spot like that to come up with a response.  Looks like you rescued it though.

Many of the scenarios in our world filled with conflict, distress and dilemmas do seem so overwhelming.  A large part of it is the pressure of the moment to assess and come up with a response with little time to rethink it all.  It's helpful to play out (practice) the usual scenarios in our mind and how to address them.

• Be mindful that children may not even know to describe what's bothering them, or even that there is something.  An example of this is how children are inclined to believe the failure of a marriage is their fault.  So being proactive to reassure the children that it's not them is helpful.
• Train ourselves to buffer our initial response with follow up conversations.  "As I promised you earlier, I've taken some time to ponder what more I could add to my initial advice/comments and I think you'd appreciate this perspective... ."

[Enabler]

Hey Mutt,

I often ponder about the way I handle the challenges of when my kids express to me their concerns about their mothers behaviour or the way they have been treated. D10 and D8 are both getting to the age where they know right from wrong and they can formulate their own opinions about their experiences. I guess your kids are even more clear about what their eyes and ears see and hear.

There is a very fine line between validation and parental alienation... .well there shouldn't be but the risk is there. Take an example where you are having a free flowing conversation with your kids and they reel  out a bunch of different experiences, some you deem acceptable and some you deem unacceptable based on your viewpoint/information available to you. Say you cast positive judgement on the things you deem as positive and cast a negative judgement on the things you deem as negative. Could this massage their opinion about their mother in a way that you determine? Although not overtly parental alienation, it is helping them formulate an opinion by validating positively/negatively things you deem so.

It's brutally tough but IMHO the utopia to get to would be where you cast no opinion at all but more take a therapist type role of batting the emotional cogitation back on your kids. "Okay... .how did you feel about that?"... ."Arrr ha, can you think of any reasons why Mum might have behaved like that?"... ."Do you think that's cool?". I'm sure there's even more neutral way to avoid non-leading questions. The idea being that you are cultivating a completely neutral space with which to explore feelings and generate their own conclusions, strengthening their own cognition muscles to process 'stuff' for themselves. My guess is that around Mum, their own cognition's are suppressed or shot down.

Just my 2p and sounds like you are doing a great job of creating a safe place for your kids, well done you.

Enabler

[kells76]

Just to jump back in here... .

It sounds like this is a process of making repairs, which includes many of the themes that Turkish, FD, and Enabler (welcome to Family Law, BTW!  ) brought up: vulnerability, neutral space, following up on conversations, safety, etc. It also sounds like closely tied to this idea of "going back and making a repair" is personal responsibility -- i.e. YOU are responsible for YOUR reactions, responses, etc.

Keep on modeling repair-making and personal responsibility to your D. Show her that you are OK with you being vulnerable about "messing up" and that you can take responsibility for those times and find a way to move forward without sweeping stuff under the rug. I would suspect that she is not seeing those qualities in her mom, unfortunately.

[Enabler]

Unequivocally yes. I have seem the benefits of starting all topics of conversation with D’s with my own vulnerability and not the failings of my W. The natural progression of this ‘laying bare’ is that Ds feel comfortable mentioning other things in their life they see as troubling eg “I know I should probably drink a lot less than I do, need to get a lid on it”... .“you don’t drink that much daddy, not half as much as mummy, sometimes she has a drink with breakfast!”... .“okay kids, how do you feel about mummy having gin on her cornflakes?”... .“well I think it’s pretty stupid especially as she then has to drive us to school, I mean she’d get put in jail if she got caught by the police and we’d have to go into care!” ... .(this is when you can address their feelings)... .“you seem pretty worried about this, am I right? Most kids would get worried about going into care” ... .then make time to separate fact from fiction and address their underlying fears. I would imagine that there are two primitive emotions that they feel, fear and anger with anger stemming from the fear.:

“The oldest and strongest emotion of mankind is fear, and the oldest and strongest kind of fear is fear of the unknown.”

Enabler

Ps sorry for trespassing!

[kells76]

(Enabler, you're very welcome here! No matter where you're at in your relationship with your W, this is also a parenting/coparenting board -- not just family law/divorce. Whenever you'd like support with parenting questions, a place to give feedback to other parents, or just to chime in with your own experiences and perspectives, come on over!)

[Mutt]

I know that this is an old thread I just wanted to give an update. The judge in December granted an order for D13 to gradually come back for example in the first month it stipulates that I take her out to supper on Wednesdays, then the following month it's supper on Wednesdays, supper on Fridays with the other two kids and that she stays every second weekend until Sunday.

We're in month two and she told mom that next weeks she's staying for the full week, exuBPDw also said that she's going to contact the government and tell them that we have 50/50 for child tax benefits, she went and changed it I called the government last and asked them how can someone change something in your account?

My ex was lining up to have D13 full time for monetary reasons, child support would not go down or significantly so if she had full custody of one of the kids and she gets more child tax benefits.

Anyways I'm happy that she's staying for a full week. I asked her something on the weekend I can't recall how I phrased it, she says that it's more relaxing at my place because all she does at mom's is chores. We're half through the 4 months of gradually having her come back and halfway there she wants to stay at my house half of the time.

I think that she was caught in a tough spot and I think that now she can say well there's an order that I have to go back. I think D13 is happy about that.

[kells76]

 

Great news, Mutt!

I think that she was caught in a tough spot and I think that now she can say well there's an order that I have to go back.

I know it must have been tough to go through all the legal stuff. This is a wonderful result for your kiddo -- that she doesn't have to be The One to decide where she goes. So much pressure off of her (hopefully).

Good to hear!

[Mutt]

I’m getting more familiar with family court, I must of gone to the resolution center a dozen times for filing affidavits and going to mediation. I dreaded it at first because there was a long gap between after the divorce was finalized and last year. I got comfortable and I was not interested in court.

They were really helpful at the resolution center I’d tell them what’s going and they’d tell which affidavit I would have to fill. She was really determined and she knows that she didn’t have a leg to stand on but relied on behaviours tactics.’c she was trying to wear me out so that I’d get to a point and I give up you hage the kids. I was surprised at how she turned cranked the dial to 11.

That being said it’s all emotional immaturity and childish behaviour at its core but it’s more intensified when it’s chil behaviours in an adult’s body.

My mom pointed it out that I’ve beat her every single time and this time she’s back peddling. I don’t want to sound arrogant but she doesn’t think things through it takes logic that she doesn’t have. What I mean is I explain to the judge in a  reasonable, mature, sensible manner and I don’t fight with the ex and come from the kids perspective it makes sense.

She didn’t want to pay for her share of daycare for S10 D13 was SI depressed and anxious. So you want a 10 years old watch the 12 year that was going through psychological issues and emotional distress. I told the judge god forbid that something happens she attempts to take her life in front S10 now instead of having trauma inflicted on one child now you have it on both, these are memories that’s going to affect him for a life time. The exuBPDw age can’t step back reflect and think of the bigger picture.

Thanks for the support kells76  

I agree I think that it was a weight taken off of her shoulders and now she can relax. It’s a weight that I’ll bare instead and not have the kids bare. At least they can’t resent me down the road and say something why didn’t go to court to get me out of that house. That’s worth going to court for.

[Turkish]

Whatever you're doing with D, keep doing it.  She sounds like Cinderella in mom's home 

Hard to say how much of that might be teen resentment,  but I recall you mentioning somethimg like this a couple of years ago.  It's a fine line to walk between validating and enabling and PA.

[worriedStepmom]

That's terrific!

You did a great job of making sure that your child knew you were there and wanted to be involved, and it paid off.

[Mutt]

Thanks Turkish and worriedStepmom and thanks again to everyone for the support, I appreciate it during a stressful period.

[ForeverDad]

So your ex wanted to change how the child deductions are done?  That's Form 8332 where the parent giving up a deduction lists which year(s) are affected and signs.  If you didn't sign and there's no new court order stating such then nothing has changed.  She's rewriting reality again.  I don't see how she can call and have something 'changed'.  Almost surely.

The IRS wants an 8332 for clarity.  In years past the taxpayer would have to include the court decision/order to document the matter, but if you read Form 8332 instructions the court, lawyers or you have to make sure the Form 8332 is filled out and signed.

Complete your tax forms as you know is correct and submit.  (I think if the order doesn't clearly state otherwise then you get stuck with the online versions asking how much parenting time you had during the year.)  If she manages to file first then you may get a notice asking for clarification.  If you can, file first to let her deal with the IRS.

I agree I think that it was a weight taken off of her shoulders and now she can relax. It’s a weight that I’ll bare instead and not have the kids bare. At least they can’t resent me down the road and say something why didn’t go to court to get me out of that house. That’s worth going to court for.

She was stuck in the middle and no kid wants that.  Some can withstand it but many can't when faced with a determined, controlling, blaming parent.