Doing Nearly Everything, OR Insist They Do More Productive Stuff for Family?

[BestVersionOfMe]

I keep thinking that I'd be a lot less resentful if my wife did more.  I earn the money, cook breakfasts, do all lunches for kids, dinner, dishes, help with homework, etc. If I just stopped doing things, I know that most of this would get done, just not very well.  But even still, would her self esteem improve by being  more  productive during the day to day?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[once removed]

is she depressed, do you know?

[BestVersionOfMe]

I'm quite certain she is.  Only official diagnosis is generalized anxiety disorder which remains untreated.  She is selectively depressed though, only in the home or around me and the kids.  When she is with her friends, or going on trips with her running friends she is having a blast.  Spends incredible amounts of time on social media.

[once removed]

what looks like selective depression may be environmental. youve described a lot of tension between you and your wife. i dont think its unnatural that you would see a different version of her than her friends see. its not unnatural that a depressed person would spend a great deal of time on social media.

as i said in your other thread, i would look at this in big picture terms.

id be resentful if i was earning the money, cooking the breakfast and lunch, and doing the chores too. but if i show that resentment, my wife would feel that. she might feel inadequate (you mention if you stopped doing these things that they would get done, but in your eyes would not be done "well"). she might feel that i see her as a burden. that might not only exacerbate depression, but it would not be an environment she (or you or i) would likely be able to thrive in.

if you want to improve the relationship, its important to recognize that its about being a team. on a certain level, it seems you see her as a player who is a weak link, holding the team back, and that its your role to make up for her short comings.

what do you think?

[BestVersionOfMe]

Yes I think that is right.  She is completely self serving and self involved and I guess I don't view the world that way so I don't understand her perspective.  I feel taken advantage of most of the time.  One of the other big problems is that she has no credibility with the kids or with me when she asks us to do things like clean up our shoes or dishes.  She is the queen of leaving her shoes and dirty dishes around so when she gets motivated at times and starts to nag us to do the same, the immediate reaction from the kids and I is that it isn't fair.  What is bizarre is how often she says, "It isn't fair to me that I have to do your laundry all the time," OR, "Why don't you all do your own laundry and see how it feels..."  She really believes in her heart of hearts that she has no time and then we she meets with the other mommy's(many of whom truly don't have any time) she empathizes and it reinforces that she is really doing a lot.  Just ain't true though.

[BestVersionOfMe]

I asked if wife would do dishes tonight since I had some more work to do.  She said ok, but said she needed to sit down for awhile.  So food stayed out on counter rotting as she sat down and did social media for 45 mins.  She then ignored dishes, went upstairs and said she was gonna do laundry and got mad at son that she has to stay up late doing laundry every night.  It isn't fair to her as she described it to everyone.  This is after too long social media rounds in the morning and sleeping in till 7 am(I got up at 530 to work before kids got up.)  I honestly don't know if my wife has BPD anymore.  All I know is that she is delusional and flat out dishonest about her productivity.  Almost like she actually thinks we are all buying what she is selling.  There are other strange things.  She will complain quite frequently about how much email she has.  I always ask her "like what" and she just says "stuff."  She doesn't work so what she is referring to is emails from Macy's, and the other sales going on from the 100+ email lists she is subscribed to.  I've never encountered someone who so willingly and without embarrassment pretends that she is slammed and buried while doing so little.  This morning she sent  me one  text.  And it was a complaint about the towel I used from the shower "stunk to high hell and either I needed to put the towels in the dryer after use each time, OR that I needed to go buy a towel rack."  Then tonight after I grilled some chicken and made a meal she said, "I just don't care for this chicken it tastes like hot dogs."  She then said it 4 more times in the course of 2 mins trying to provoke me into fight I think, not sure.  I didn't bite.  I just sat down to get some work done on the couch.  The behavior is so bizarre at this point I almost think that there is something else going on that is more serious.  She has frequent health issues, tummy issues, headaches, and is tired every day despite sleeping some days 12 hours.  I've seen depressed people, but they don't run ultra marathons like my wife does.  They usually can't get out of bed.  Mine is more like multiple personality disorder or something.  She is the fun girl at one moment, then the grumpy nagging wife another, then the ultimatum giving teenager at another, then the ultra-motivated clean for four hours person another time.  I've never seen anything like this is my life.  I'm completely in awe and shocked every single day. 

[BestVersionOfMe]

I feel these two are more likely than BPD, but I could be wrong:

Histrionic   Dramatic, seductive, shallow, stimulus-seeking, vain. Overreact to minor events. Exhibitionistic as a means of securing attention and favors. See themselves as attractive and charming. Constantly seeking others' attention. Disorder is characterized by constant attention-seeking, emotional overreaction, and suggestibility. Their tendency to over-dramatize may impair relationships and lead to depression, but they are often high-functioning.[27][unreliable medical source?]
Narcissistic   Egotistical, arrogant, grandiose, insouciant. Preoccupied with fantasies of success, beauty, or achievement. See themselves as admirable and superior, and therefore entitled to special treatment. Is a mental disorder in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance and a deep need for admiration. Those with narcissistic personality disorder believe that they're superior to others and have little regard for other people's feelings.

[once removed]

BestVersionOfMe,

i guess the question is do you want to improve your marriage?

i ask because it is clear there is a lot of resentment...from you toward her, and from her toward you.

and that resentment, if it lingers, will only further break down your marriage over time.

my sense of your attitude is that you feel she should change. my suggestion is that you take the lead, and radically change your approach if you want to improve your marriage. my hope and suspicion are that if you can do that, your marriage might not only improve, but your wife will follow your lead.

but its going to require a very different approach, and a desire and commitment to see it through over a sustained period of time. are you prepared to do that?

[BestVersionOfMe]

I am willing, and I've been willing, but I never sustain it because I get fed up.  I have a therapist we meet weekly about my marriage.  I do daily affirmations, gratitude, goal setting, and hypnosis.  I have reminders on my phone to validate my wife's feelings, to compliment and thank her for the things she does, etc.  I have the Youper app on my phone to walk me through thinking traps and test the accuracy of my feelings on any negative or nasty texts from my wife.  I've been at this for 8 years and we continue to fall farther apart, so YES I am ready for real change, but I don't know how to get there any more.

[once removed]

i hear you. these are challenging relationships, no doubt.

certainly, the problems did not begin over night, and they wont end over night. as i said, it will require a sustained effort (mistakes allowed of course), assuming that it is possible.

you mention some good stuff. how much have you dove into the lessons and tools here?

[BestVersionOfMe]

I do now and again, but not sustained.  I know that validation is a huge piece and I do my best, but at times my resent causes me to feel I shouldn't have to validate things that I find to be outrageous or simply unfair.  I think I need some wins.  Some small wins so that I believe in the lengthy process a bit more.  I don't even think my wife is as bad as some here, but it is the sheer volume of her abrasive style with the kids and I, her hypocrisy of asking all of us to do things that she doesn't do herself, and then her self serving and independent behavior.  Like last night, she said she would do the dishes and then she sat there on her phone and then disappeared upstairs.  Messiness really bothers me so I ended up doing it.  Perhaps that is something I shouldn't do moving forward. 

[once removed]

I know that validation is a huge piece and I do my best, but at times my resent causes me to feel I shouldn't have to validate things that I find to be outrageous or simply unfair.

okay. this is a good example of developing a bigger picture view.

making these relationships work is really not all about validation. validation is an important part of having a healthy relationship, an environment that breeds love, and its important to really understand where your partner is coming from in order to validate. its also true that people with BPD traits (highly sensitive people) tend to need a bit more validation than most.

but validation is not a panacea. validation is not something to throw out in order to change your partner, or with the expectation of anything in return.

besides, we can run the risk of validating the invalid when we do that. its easier to think in terms of "dont be invalidating" than "bend over backwards to validate". its about creating a generally validating environment (where people with BPD traits are more likely to thrive), and loving relationship.

thats how you want to approach the relationship in general. less in terms of putting out individual fires, but more in terms of setting up fire prevention. think of the tools in terms of a lifestyle change.

this doesnt mean there wont be "fires". this will likely always be a challenging relationship. it does mean they may be fewer and further between. it does mean you will hopefully be able to cope with them and handle them more skillfully. it does mean capitalizing on times of calm with your wife in order to build up and improve on the relationship, and to get on the same page. to nurture the love, and emotionally connect. there are inherent trust issues with BPD, and of course there are inherent challenges like motivation, taking good care of yourself, and acknowledging the needs of others and your own effect on them, with depression.

does that make sense?

[BestVersionOfMe]

okay. this is a good example of developing a bigger picture view.

making these relationships work is really not all about validation. validation is an important part of having a healthy relationship, an environment that breeds love, and its important to really understand where your partner is coming from in order to validate. its also true that people with BPD traits (highly sensitive people) tend to need a bit more validation than most.

but validation is not a panacea. validation is not something to throw out in order to change your partner, or with the expectation of anything in return.

besides, we can run the risk of validating the invalid when we do that. its easier to think in terms of "dont be invalidating" than "bend over backwards to validate". its about creating a generally validating environment (where people with BPD traits are more likely to thrive), and loving relationship.

thats how you want to approach the relationship in general. less in terms of putting out individual fires, but more in terms of setting up fire prevention. think of the tools in terms of a lifestyle change.

this doesnt mean there wont be "fires". this will likely always be a challenging relationship. it does mean they may be fewer and further between. it does mean you will hopefully be able to cope with them and handle them more skillfully. it does mean capitalizing on times of calm with your wife in order to build up and improve on the relationship, and to get on the same page. to nurture the love, and emotionally connect. there are inherent trust issues with BPD, and of course there are inherent challenges like motivation, taking good care of yourself, and acknowledging the needs of others and your own effect on them, with depression.

does that make sense?

Yes it makes sense.  There are moments of calmness and I do know that frequent listening with eye contact, compliments, thanking her for the work she does, and validating her complaints tends to take the edge off.  Where I struggle with more than anything is just being around the negativity and drama.  It is like a vampire and it sucks the motivation right out of the room to where I simply want to check out rather than engage and do all these things.  The best part of my day is at the office, and then coming home it is chaos, and drama, and negativity, and messes, and I go from a happy camper to anxious husband.  I need to master the transition between office and coming home so that I have a more conscious awareness of the game plan and what I need to do.  Instead I think I've been saying, "screw it" and I feel powerless to stop it all. 

[once removed]

im curious how its going in therapy, and what your therapist thinks about it all. are you working any on coping skills?

can you give an example of "validating her complaints"?

[BestVersionOfMe]

im curious how its going in therapy, and what your therapist thinks about it all. are you working any on coping skills?

can you give an example of "validating her complaints"?

We do talk about that.  About my triggers and the things I should do to deal with them.  Like tonight.  My wife went out with her friends so I stayed home and made homemade pasta for the kids because we have a track meet tomorrow.  It was very relaxing.  She got home around 830 and started to pick a fight with me and the kids immediately responded.  She just isn't likable.  We don't want her to be here and I know she feels that and it must feel horrible for her.  On the same token, I get where the kids and myself are coming from too.   She nags, she is negative, she is drama, she will say things like, "your dad is soo..." to get a rise out of me.  I just don't sit there and take it anymore.  I call her out too like she calls me out.  SO she went to bed.  It isn't like I have some master plan where I twist my mustache and frame my wife.  It is more that she is just unlikable and unpleasant to be around.  Where is the balance between defending the kids when they don't deserve things vs just sitting there and taking her abuse?  I am not getting anything out of the relationship anyways, so why not defend the kids and myself at the same time?   She goes out and treats her friends like royalty but comes home and trashes her family,  mostly me. 

[once removed]

I am not getting anything out of the relationship anyways, so why not defend the kids and myself at the same time?   

primarily because this creates a conflict/drama triangle that polarizes the conflict, and drives everyone to take sides.

we get more out of the relationship when we focus on and contribute to the overall needs of the relationship.

[BestVersionOfMe]

Ok so what dramatic shift needs to happen?  I came home early from work to help with home work and there are some practices to go to.  She was sitting on the coach with her phone in hand as usual.  The sink was piled with her dirty dishes so I cleaned it all up, my son was upstairs unsupervised and I caught him playing on his ipad rather than doing home work.  I said very nicely, "He needs a bit more supervision if he is upstairs, he is 12, and he doesn't have the self control to use his ipad for his homework only yet."  She got very defensive and then sent some disrespectful text about something the car needs.  I don't know how to set boundaries or make polite requests without causing massive conflict.  Every time I turn around she is on that phone rather than getting things done.  The only time she really gets to work is after dinner, right about when I'm ready to call it a day.  That is when she starts to nag everyone and play victim.  During that time she goes on and on about how it isn't fair that she has to do this or that while we all relax.  Problem is from 6 am to 6 pm though.  She really doesn't do much of anything other than work out, get ready, visit with friends, shop, and then pick up from school or practice.  Its one giant illusion that she is buried and doing laundry and cleaning all day, one that I observe at every turn each and every day.  The crazy part is that she perpetuates that same illusion with me too, but you'd think she has to know at some level that I know.  I don't know if this is BPD behavior or just straight up depression.  I'd like to have a better relationship, I really would, but I'm still not sure how to get there.  I could even live with doing all the work if she was pleasant, and honest, and nice to me. 

[BestVersionOfMe]

Not to sure where to go from here.  Wife went to lunch with her friends for an hour and then spent another 2 1/2 hours with her friends at dinner. Came home to us relaxing and immediately started speed walking through the house talking about what a victim she is and cleaning everything in sight.  She cleans before the cleaner comes, which I am fine with, but the picture that was painted that she is the victim and we sit on our asses is just priceless.  I'm as confused as ever.  She went to bed again at 830, and she has been sleeping till 630 or 7 each day.   She seems so disgusted with me I can't even comprehend it.  I guess it is the mirror of how I feel about her.  Difference is I actually produce work.  I make all the money, do all the cooking, manage 70% of home work, do all the dishes and kitchen, etc.  Honestly I just want to know what in God's name is going on.  I'm so confused.  She doesn't do much but honestly acts like she climbs Mt Everest every day and is disgusted by me.  What the hell is she thinking, and what do I do? 

[BestVersionOfMe]

And...Wife just said everyone is doing their own laundry moving forward. 

[once removed]

Ok so what dramatic shift needs to happen?

perspective, attitude, and proactive interest in saving your relationship. emotional connection with your wife.

right now, you are primarily venting about day to day conflict and resentment toward your wife (as is she). it is, of course, understandable. but at a certain point, it keeps you stuck in perpetual conflict and only furthers the attitude you have toward your wife.

from an outsider standpoint, the two of you are primarily sniping, bickering, and bossing each other. it doesnt sound like a pleasant environment for either of you, or one where you view each other as team mates, but one of hostility and dread.

"He needs a bit more supervision if he is upstairs, he is 12, and he doesn't have the self control to use his ipad for his homework only yet."  She got very defensive and then sent some disrespectful text about something the car needs.

this is a lecture, and if you think about it, its not a surprise that she reacted defensively.

a big picture approach is about modeling the kind of relationship you want to have, and leading it in that direction. that does not necessarily mean modeling how you want her to be, or how you think she should change. it is a team effort, in the name of what is best for the relationship in general. an example would be, in a time of calm, discussing and getting on the same page about your 12 year old son. but im not sure right now, that the two of you have a suitable environment in which you can do that sort of thing.

we have a workshop here on adopting a problem solving model. https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=331851.0

its a very good big picture approach that i suspect you could apply in lots of ways, though it may not be something you can simply jump into...you have to have a cooperative team mate first.

how is the romance in the relationship, the physical intimacy, the sex? do the two of you enjoy any activities together?

[BestVersionOfMe]

She is not at peace with herself and that is carrying through all areas of her life.  The  kids and I are just the closest relatives she lashes out at.  She argues with her mom a lot too.  Everything is a crisis and I can't reach her where she is at right now.  I think the best thing to do is continue to love her and support her and when she wants to chat I will, but other than that I am gonna live my own life and pursue happiness without her.  I have spoken to one of her girlfriends who is trying to encourage her to go back to work.  The truth is, my resentment isn't so much about how much work she does, it is that she is downright mean and rude and abrasive and grumpy.  I'd gladly do 90% of the work if she was nice to the kids and I.  She has sent me a series of nasty texts today.  Like her car registration sticker hasn't arrived and I'm "lame" that it hasn't arrived, even though it was paid almost a month ago.  That she can't count on me at all and that she'll just do it herself next time.  We've been in darker places in the past, but her unhappiness has never been this bad.  Not sure if that is BPD or BiPolar, or depression or what, but I need my space from her so that I don't let it bring me down. 

As far as sex goes,  we are in our worst drought.  Maybe every 45 days or so, usually after a party where both of us have been drinking though.  We do have a decent time at social events.  She is so hostile around the house though, you can cut the tension with a knife.  So sad to watch first hand. 

[BestVersionOfMe]

I'm at the point now where I simply don't engage my wife on anything.  Silence in the car, if she goes upstairs I go down, if she comes down, I go up.  All I give are simple yes no answers, because anything more than that she wants to criticize, argue, or pick a fight.  She also is sincere in her belief that she does everything around her.  This part I can't wrap my brain around it other than pure delusion on her part.  She announced she is no longer doing the laundry because it is not fair to her.  She also refuses to do her own dishes, half the time leaving her dirty plate, and silverware on the counter.  I just can't seem to buy that this is unconscious and not personal.  I think she is trying to push me away so that I end the marriage, no other explanation  makes sense.  Then again, she is nasty and unfair to the kids too.  She is a different person in public, 180 degrees, and she has our entire social circle of friends completely fooled.  She's an impostor and I'm sick of her hiding behind my efforts.  Tell me that someone can't be so disordered that they believe it 100%?  Is it possible for someone to be that self serving, hypocritical, and mean all at the same time all the while thinking that she is the innocent one being victimized myself and the world?  Tell me that is impossible. 

[jomo564]

It's very tempting to compensate for what they don't do, with what you do. And some of that is good. But it also insulates them from consequences.

If you are staying married / living together, you are going to do more, and if you truly accept that, you will be less bitter.

But you should look at all the things to do, and find ones to stop doing where the consequences will fall more on her. Let her know that it's her job. If she asks you to do things like that, say that as you wash the dishes etc. she needs to take care of her things.

Even if some of the things you don't do cause some problems for you, it may be best to accept that as a worthwhile price to pay for giving her more responsibility.

[once removed]

I'm at the point now where I simply don't engage my wife on anything.

Gottman would suggest that this approach may further deteriorate your marriage.

is that the goal?