Is this worthy of divorce? Is she bluffing?

[Spam591]

Three months ago I reconciled with my wife. We started attending an I tense therapy program. She is going to therapy twice a week. DBT group once a week. And couples once a week. Our therapy is all in the same office.

My therapist told me today that I need to start going twice a week or they cannot see us for couples therapy. I was never told this from the beginning. This therapy is costing me $7,000/month and they do not take insurance. I have made it clear along the way that I simply cannot afford this.

Today  I stated I cannot afford to go to my personal therapy twice per week. Our couples therapist sent us a group text canceling couples  therapy this week because I am unwilling to go twice a week. My wife responded in the group text by saying we can afford it and that I’m just being ridiculous. We genuinely cannot afford it. I can’t afford all of this. I stated again in the group text that I cannot afford all of this and we need to sit and figure it out. Our therapist then responds by saying “didn’t you just say you spent $30k on a vacation? Maybe you need to reprioritize things.”

My wife then calls me and says “if you do not agree to go to therapy twice a week and couples therapy then i am divorcing you” then she hangs up and will not respond to any calls or texts all day...

I then sent another group text stating again we cannot afford all of this and need to sit and come up with a plan. No response from my wife or therapist.

I then raged via text at my wife and said a whole bunch of stuff I shouldn’t have.

I feel so abandoned. Manipulated. Alone.

Please give me honest insight guys. My head is so twisted here.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[once removed]

i hear you, Spam591. this does sound difficult.

what are your options? is it possible to change therapists, or therapy programs? is it possible to put the therapy program on hold for a bit? is it possible to reprioritize?

[Spam591]

Well. She woke me up at midnight tonight and told me she wants a divorce.

Yesterday I opened up my finances and showed her everything. She said she understood and was thankful I was being open with our accounts and my business.

Tonight at dinner she asked me when we could talk about finances. I said later would be good. She kept persisting. Then she said “I feel cheated” “you are in debt over your ears and only have $$$ to your name”. I got up and walked out of the restaurant and walked across the street home. I then went on a half hour drive to cool off.

Called her and she wouldn’t answer. Came home and she wouldn’t talk. Went to bed and she woke me up expressing very seriously she wants a divorce. Then she called me fat, bad at having sex, ugly, a loser, etc...

I packed my bags, told her how much I loved her. Asked her if she was serious to which she replied. yes. My heart sank.

I stopped the marital therapy temporarily because it was super expensive. Between me stopping that temporarily and the bad temporary financial place I’m in i think she is really scared. She is also bipolar and unmedicated. Told me today she is dropping out of her college program to become a realtor. She is super passionate about her college program. I think she is starting a manic episode. Or maybe I am just a loser that has failed her...

Oh man.. is she serious?

What do I do?

[Enabler]

Hey Spam,

I have to admit to having a few jaw dropping moments reading this thread. That's a heck of a lot of money to be spending on T a month. I don't know anyone that could sustain that for very long at all.

I don't know whether she 'means it', she likely does mean it in the here and now. Her reaction and reasons for her reaction make perfect sense to her AT THIS TIME. BUT... lets imagine she's living in a fantasy world at the moment where you're useless, financially inept and she'd live a fairy-tale life without you... how does that look compared to reality, or a likely reality you might perceive for life after you? At the moment you are telling her what reality looks like. From what I have experienced 'telling' people who are emotionally sensitive who live predominantly in a fantasy world, doesn't work so well. In a strange sense you are trying to rescue her from living in her fantasy world... but she's pretty sweet in that world, a world where she can imagine you have loads of money but you're just not releasing it to show her how much you love her and spend $7k a month on therapy.

In these situations it's often better to ask her to show you where the money is going to come from. 'Can't afford' is very subjective, one might argue that if your life depended on it (which she might think hers does), you would borrow the money or sell all your possessions to make it happen. There's plenty of dots for YOUR WIFE to connect, don't connect them all for her... e.g. if you can't afford T then finding the money for a divorce is going to be a struggle, and worse still, finding this fantasy money for her to maintain a lifestyle after the divorce is going to be tough. I'm sure she's not considering that as she's still in a world where she'd be happy to live in rags in a ditch with the person she actually loved. Hold tight and let her work out what reality looks like. Less TELL, more SHOW, place responsibility back in her court... gently and kindly.

We're here for you

Enabler

[Spam591]

Wow. That was spot on. Thank you. Sincerely thank you.

The crazy thing is we met when I was married and was going through a divorce. She knew that would be super hard on me financially and it has been. Then I spent $40k in her birthday.  I was manipulated  into it and thought if I didn’t make her 21st grand she would leave me. So a lot of the bad financial decisions I’ve made have either been directly her or directly tied to my insecurity of losing her. And here we are...

What are some practical ways to place responsibilities back in her court?

What should I do logistically? Should I just go sleep on the couch at home? Should I continue staying in an Airbnb. She had asked me to leave tonight.

Should I not reach out to her? She will be reaching out today I’m assuming looking for funds to survive. Should I deposit some money for her into an account?

ultimately I want my wife by my side honoring her commitment to us. And not viewing me as a person who is out to get her and ruin her which is how she has viewed me now for like three weeks. Like literally everything I do is wrong or is in some way “abusive”

[Enabler]

Wow... $40k on a birthday... you can kinda see where she got the impression 7k a month to save you marriage was no big ask. I don't know your financial position but I'm guessing you have been writing cheques you can't honour... and maybe for some significant time.

I would consider what a healthy relationship looks like to you. It looks different for all of us. For me, we should both be individuals in our own rite, we should both be able to stand strong as individuals with differences (strengths and weaknesses)... this is the point where I typically pick up my 2 phones and stand them upright aside each other but apart... Sometimes we have to lean on the other, sometimes we lean in together for mutual support, but on the whole a healthy relationship shouldn't be where one partner (phone) is constantly leaning on the other for support. For example, I know that not all people are blessed with good financial management skills, however, choice and control comes with responsibility... if your W believes she should have choice and control over the finances and your ability to pay for T sessions... ask her where the money is coming from and if she asked for information, provide the numbers for her. Let her tell you where the money is coming from, let her take responsibility for it.

Regarding your living conditions, if she wants a divorce and you want to resolve the situation, why did you move out of your home? I'm not suggesting you be belligerent about it, but I feel too many people are told they are bad, told their wife wants a divorce and immediately walk out the home and provide their emotionally chaotic W exactly what she has demanded. Next thing you'll draw up all the documents, see a lawyer and provide her a 'deal' for financial settlement for something you never wanted in the first place. What if you allowed her to bare the consequences for her choices? What if you moved back in and slept in your own bed and if she doesn't like it, she can make other arrangements? At the moment you are validating the invalid.

She says jump, you say how high... why?

You cannot force someone to be by your side. Sometimes it takes something like this to see your partner in colour, rather than in the way you wanted to see them. Maybe she's just not capable of being by your side.

Why did your first marriage break up?

Enabler

[Spam591]

Took your advice.

I tried practicing opposite action (DBT skill) Not sure if it was effective.

I packed up my stuff and went home. Took a shower and got ready for work. Then said to her “I’m practicing opposite action. The last time we had a breakdown like this is I just left. I’m staying in our home and am willing to work on our marriage. Here is money. And you can be responsible for your own decisions (aka finding a place to move to, etc.. .) if this is what you decide for yourself.

She then said “you are going to be responsible for things too when i divorce you. Like making sure I have money.” She then said “you are really irresponsible with money, you are a bad business man, and a really terrible father”. She then said “did you hear me?” And walked out of the living room aggressively and into the bathroom where I was getting ready.

I responded by saying “sounds like it will not be effective to engage further right now. So I won’t be engaging right now. Love you lots. She then took my hair gel and told me to go do my hair in the kitchen and threw it. Then slammed the door on my back.

This is the same exact look in her eyes 5 months ago when she walked out on me for another man. Almost positive it’s the start of a manic episode. She had all these grandiose ideas yesterday like quitting her degree she is super passionate about and getting hired at a top real estate firm in Beverly Hills in the next few weeks. Lol And unfortunately she always says things like “I’m a beautiful 21 year old in LA I can get whatever I want” or “I can do so much better than you you are a loser” etc...

Don’t know why I stick threw her meltdowns like this and stay. Really need to figure that out within myself.

Thank you for being there for me. I’m a complete mess. Sometime I feel like I am borderline due to the constant emotional detachment and the threats of abandonment and actually abandonment she throws at me.

[Enabler]

Really need to figure that out within myself.

Yes, that's very very very much what you need to do. Step back and think about your qualities as a person, think about what you have done for her and what you have endured. By all means think about the areas where you have failed, that too is an honourable and righteous thing to do... and good for maintaining a realistic sense of reality.

I'm not so sure that now is the time to announce that you are using specific tool like opposite action, this maybe feels a bit clunky and mechanical. You're likely to feel a shock blast (you already have)... call it a tantrum. Lien into the blast ever so slight such that it doesn't push you over emotionally or physically. I'm not suggesting attack her... that's no what you want to achieve (after all, you love her). This is more to stand still in a passive way, not making things worse, nor attempting to make things better.

The insults are an attempt to make you feel worse, armour yourself up with personal understanding, know yourself, know your qualities and know your weaknesses. Her insults and attempt to demean you will ricochet off you when you truly know who you are.

She may well be an attractive 21yr old and she may well be able to get what she wants... and maybe that is what she will decide to do, and there's little you can do to stop her doing that. Have you given any thought about what is okay and what isn't okay for you to tolerate? Often we get stuck in a vicious cycle of attempting to do whatever it takes to cling onto someone, even if they are jamming pens in our eyes.

Apologies, I haven't read your back story so I didn't know anything about the affair. Very sorry to hear about that, that's poisonous for a relationship and many people believe it's yet another way of controlling you/the relationship. Incidentally how did you reconcile?

Enabler

[Spam591]

Here is where I am at. If this is all about money to her which its looking like it is then I'd like to be done and this isn't worth going through. I am doing bad right now financially. She is not getting gifts, trips, etc and our couples therapist we were seeing even explained to her that I need to stop showing her love in this way and we need to adjust. So maybe this is her having a freakout to the adjustment and a reality check. And if that is the case then I'm willing to stick this out and support her as long as their is no more infidelity.

I cannot do the infidelity again. Unfortunately, when she cheated on me 4-5 months ago I felt very abandoned by the way she went about it. It was out in the open and she was very vocal about it. I have been very angry and have verbally abused her since we have gotten back together. I realized this about a month ago that I am ashamed of being using revengeful methods of coping with anger. And now I am very insecure and any time I feel abandonment coming I cope in unhealthy ways. I am attending a weekly DBT therapy group and learning healthy ways to cope with these feelings. These feelings are new to me as this relationship and the constant back and forth has almost put me on the spectrum of BPD I feel.


I feel like she is trying to get me to react adversely so she can back up the very reasons why she is questioning the marriage to begin with. Today when I went home she was naked. She jumped and covered herself and said "Im naked" I just kind of looked at her super confused and went into the bathroom. She is so distant right now and so cold and it feels like she is trying to start something. Then about an hour ago she sends me the last texts between her and her physcially abusive ex BF. She then states "he treated me so much better than you". Which is so confusing? I have done nothing but spoil this person. With the exception of the last few months of some verbal abuse here and there. I responded " I love you. Im here. I know we are both scared and adjusting to stuff. If you truly want a divorce you have my support and Ill do what I can on my end to ensure s smooth transition for you". Don't really know what else to do...

[Enabler]

" I love you. Im here. I know we are both scared and adjusting to stuff. If you truly want a divorce you have my support and Ill do what I can on my end to ensure s smooth transition for you"

Why would you rescue her from this situation? If she wants a divorce then by all means do what is necessary to protect yourself and ensure you meet all legal requirements... but why would you "ensure smooth transition for you"? Yesterday I mentioned leaning into the shockwaves, not attacking but not being pushed around. She can make choices, that's her prerogative... but those choices come with consequences for both of you. She should as an adult deal with her consequences and you your own. I can't speak with certainty as to the outcome of your offer to "ensure smooth transition for you" but given what you have experienced thus far in the relationship is this a likely outcome... You help her achieve the divorce and provide a comfortable future for her, she then blames you for a divorce she never wanted...

An alternative response to her messages could have been, "I appreciate you are angry and frustrated with me. Please desist from sending me abusive accusatory messages and comparing me to a previous relationship. I'm willing to talk when we're both calm and prepared to have a productive conversation." Find something to validate that is true, that may well be her feeling angry or hurt. Set a boundary of unacceptable behaviour (the accusations). State the behaviour that you wish to experience and how you are willing to interact with her.

Regarding your anger post the affair and subsequent BPD like behaviour. Does this make sense to you knowing what you know about BPD? BPD traits are not exclusive to pwBPD, they are natural outcomes of existing in a high negative emotional state... the red zone. Being tortured by your wife having an affair IS A HIGHLY EMOTIONAL EXPERIENCE, also being angry as a response to that experience is pretty reasonable if you ask me. It's great that you have taken note of this and tried to remedy the situation with some coping mechanisms, but at the same time I think it's worth noting that it's okay to be angry. Anger is a natural response and you had good reason to be angry and have no reason to feel guilty over being angry. Finding a safe outlet and working through your anger is key, and that's what you should focus on rather than attempting to suppress your own emotions.

How are things this morning?

Enabler 

[Spam591]

Well. That night she called me after a long day of uncertainty and asked me to go to dinner. I met her out and she just pretended like nothing was wrong.

Then this morning we went to breakfast. She got upset at something I said that was small. At the same time I was paying the bill. I finished signing and stood up. She then shouted my name and said “you could wait for me and not be rude”. I responded by explaining I wasn’t being rude. She then started walking in front of me and did the whole day. She then canceled out dinner plans tonight and is currently grabbing her own dinner.

It’s like it doesn’t matter what I do I’m wrong. She is right and I’m wrong. She can cause a big scene then act like nothings wrong. If I respond negatively or at all then I’m the one who made the bigger scene. I’m the one that is not being skillful. And then i get the silent treatment.

How do I break this cycle. If she would not get raging pissed at every little thing, look at me like I’m always doing the wrong thing or trying to hurt her, and invest some time into us things would turn around. This is crazy.

Oh she also found out I called my divorce attorney and that made her super mad! Like she kicked me out and was dead serious in getting a divorce. Like what does she expect. Lol

[Spam591]

Guys! What is happening.

I was just at a coffee shop with her enjoying ourselves. Things have been chill al morning.

Then she grabbed my donut out of my hand and said “I need to take a picture of it”. I was like “no dude” and went to eat it. She then gets up gets in the car and drives off. Leaves me 30 minutes away from the house .I call and ask her to come back and do the responsible thing and treat me right. She texts me Uber.

Like What the heck is this persons issue. Then she texts me and says she wants a divorce. She is so insane and irrational.

[Enabler]

Can you see a common theme here? I think I can.

INVALIDATION

For the majority of us it goes without notice, it's almost second nature and in general we're not sensitive to it... ironically a pwBPD themselves can be VERY invalidating, however, when the tables are turned and someone invalidates them, WOW, they're super super sensitive. You can invalidate someone with words or by actions... or by inaction. It's not something you're doing "wrong", it's likely that she is just very very very sensitive to it.

You stood up -  she felt that you didn't care whether or not she was ready to leave... invalidation (I don't matter)

You wouldn't let her take your doughnut - maybe your facial expression said something that looked a bit like this "No, leave my doughnut alone you weirdo"... invalidation (I am WRONG (whole person).

I am not sure you have got to grips yet how sensitive your W is... or you are getting to gribs with it now. You're walking around a minefield blindfolded, bumping into things and having your legs blown off by explosions you didn't expect because you have NO IDEA why she's been triggered by your comments. This isn't a personal criticism of you, I mean why should you know ? You final comment says it all... "She is so insane and irrational"... YES YES YES... (insane is debatable and I wouldn't know how to define that), but DO NOT EXPECT HER TO BE RATIONAL.

From your reading what do you know about the difference between emotional thinking and rational thinking? My guess is you live in the more rational half, she's most definitely in the emotional camp... in fact likely the extremely emotional camp. That means the way she processes situational stimuli in a completely different way.

As a super super simplistic intro, as kids, we're totally reliant on our emotions to make decisions. Assuming we have a relatively stable upbringing we graduate to move away from emotional impulse driven decision making as we desensitise ourselves and learn coping mechanisms towards a more rational arena where we make choices based on information. By the sounds of things your W didn't have an awesome upbringing so she never graduated from emotional thinking and stays in a child-like state emotionally whilst encapsulated in a grown woman's body. She looks and smells like an adult but inside she's a frightened child. When bad stuff happens (and when I say bad this is a sliding scale depending on how emotionally sensitive a person is) we all revert to our base level of emotional development... WE ALL DO. So, when you're peed off you might yell and shout and become pretty irrational... but it hopefully takes you quite a bit to get there (being told your W wants a divorce might do it). She on the other hand might get to the red zone when you don't open a door for her, or if you say you're not keen on the meal she's cooked. Once she gets there she has limited skills to cope with her emotional fire/pain, she might do things like throw things at you (physically or emotionally), she might sleep with other people, she might get drunk or do drugs. As you can imagine she spends a fair amount of time fire fighting... fighting fires you wouldn't even imagine are significant since you wouldn't even experience them in the same situation. My guess is she has NO IDEA that you experience the world in a different way to her and is utterly confused as to why you insist on hurting her.

Staying in a constant state of firefighting (fight or flight) has it's long term impacts. People come up with coping mechanisms. Some of these will be cognitive, some will be physical. Physical being things like fleeing (running away, locking in room, silent treatment), attacking (shouting, throwing, hitting), distraction (cutting, drinking, drugs, sex, shopping). Cognitive being things like projection (you're the problem not me), denying and lying to others AND herself (avoiding guilt and shame), abandoning herself (making herself irresponsible for any of her own actions, all actions are a reaction to something someone else did).

Education is the shield to your soul... armour up to protect yourself. You're trying to hard to see her through your own eyes, the same eyes you see other people... you need to change your perspective... not all people process information in the same way that you do.

Enabler   

[Spam591]

She called me this morning after her personal therapy session. Her therapist and her devised a plan to separate while we both pursue our own therapy and healthy mental states.

She said she is moving out temporarily and living with her friend while we work on ourselves. We would be committed to each other. Then come together when the time is right to work on our marriage.

I asked how we are now going to pay for rent on yet another property. She said we could break our current lease and get two smaller less expensive units. When I said this isn't possible she said I don't care. This is what we are doing. She wouldn't allow me to have any opinion or voice. Then she hung up.

I called her back and she said " I don't want to be with you. We are divorcing. I am so unhappy and don't want to be married to you anymore." then she hung up.

What the heck do I do. Like what the heck. If she would make a solid effort and stop threatening our marriage ___ would smooth over and be fine. I feel like her leaving the house is going to be the end.

[Spam591]

Came home tonight and she stated she wants to separate. She sounded logical and said “since we cannot see our couples therapist right now we should be pursuing individual therapy twice a week and working on ourselves so when we get back together we are stronger.”

She said a few months apart. She is going to move in with her friend. We aren’t seeing people (yeah right ha) and we will
Try again.

I just basically said, okay...

Thoughts?

[once removed]

to be frank, she is pretty all over the place.

a therapeutic separation, when things are at this level, can really help. it can stop the bleeding, and the conflict. it can give both parties the space to clear their minds, to determine priorities. and while perhaps not ideal, at this point it can be more constructive and a better outcome than divorce.

i might tell her that if she feels that it is for the best and for the good of the relationship, that you accept it and are willing to give it a shot. state it supportively...not a "well fine then", or "well i dont want that but". let it be her decision, but one that you support.

then i would try to set a time with her to discuss the terms, and the goals. i would do a lot of listening as to how she hopes this will improve the marriage, what she intends to do with the time, the terms (not seeing other people seems important) but also all sorts of logistics, and also what she would like to see happen at its conclusion. and once ive listened, i would also state all of those things as i see them, my preferences.

id also work those things out here on this board and get some feedback as to whats reasonable, realistic, and negotiable.

we have a thread here on therapeutic separations id encourage you to read and think through: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=141686.0

[Enabler]

At the moment she feels like she wants a separation... and at the very worst she wants a divorce... I would believe her on that front... BUT... this may change with her feelings. She's deep into the red zone (fight or flight) at the moment. However, you do not need to enable/rescue her with the divorce. Let some of the shoes drop, let her realise some of her own chaos and take a step back. If she wants to move out, so be it.

What do you think will happen if you:
a) help her try and resolve her conflicted feelings
b) tell her what has happened (given you have a different perception of history to her)
c) help her move out
d) help her resolve the financial/legal impossibility of breaking a lease changing housing situation.

FWIW my W suggested a similar thing in 2017, she wanted to rent our home out and rent 2 smaller properties. I didn't entertain the idea, maybe I could have but it would have cost tens of thousands and ultimately just delaying an inevitable decision whilst creating a seemingly permanent stalemate.

Enabler 

[Spam591]

She is not wanting a separation that is planned out by our therapists.

I sent a text to our group text we have going with both of our personal therapists and our couples therapists that said "W is is interpreting us not being able to go to couples therapy as a need for us to be officially separated. Can we set up a session to discuss an official separation and get your professional opinion?"

Our couples therapist responded "No one has mentioned or suggested a separation at all! Simply a shift in focus from couples to individual right now"

My wife then texted " I had said this to my husband because I don't think we can healthily function in each others daily presence while scooping into our individual therapy. I also fear arguing and hurt thats being constantly perpetuated and believe  us separating is a somewhat necessary if we want to salvage our mental health, outside and within this marriage".

We are 8 months into being married. There is nothing to fight about. Literally nothing at this point. Clearly she has just lost attraction and is reconsidering what she is doing. Which is so dang frustrating to me. I'm put on the shelf once again while she straightens her head out.

Whats interesting is yesterday I was evaluated for 2 hours by a psychiatrist. My wife demanded it and told me her therapist highly recommended it. I came out with a clean mental health bill. My wife called and asked me how it went. I told her the good news. She got really angry! . Then called me an hour later and said "You lied to that doctor. You are mentally Ill. And its hurtful that you think all of our problems stem from me". I never said or hinted all of our problems stem from her... I simply said I don't have a personality disorder, Im not bipolar, I don't even have general anxiety. Just some stress. ha. Then she went on to say how she was diagnosed when she was 16 which is far to young. And said her therapist and her believe nothing is wrong. She has been diagnosed Bi-polar 2, BPD, NPD, and something else. Ive read the evaluation report and its pretty wild.

How should I handle this? I am flying back to my hometown to hang out with my kids and was planning on staying there for a few weeks to get distance from her. I do not trust her alone here for a second due to the past cheating. She told me two days ago she will not share her location with me anymore. Which is funny because I was never the one to ask for that and she just brings this up when she knows Im leaving this weekend? Sounds like she has something planned out...I really want her to stop viewing me as someone who wants to hurt her. I want the marriage to go on and for her to be sure this is what she wants and be committed. I want the fighting over nothing to stop. I want her to stop silencing me when I am upset and am skillfully presenting my feelings.

[Ozzie101]

Whats interesting is yesterday I was evaluated for 2 hours by a psychiatrist. My wife demanded it and told me her therapist highly recommended it. I came out with a clean mental health bill. My wife called and asked me how it went. I told her the good news. She got really angry! Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). Then called me an hour later and said "You lied to that doctor. You are mentally Ill. And its hurtful that you think all of our problems stem from me". I never said or hinted all of our problems stem from her... I simply said I don't have a personality disorder, Im not bipolar, I don't even have general anxiety. Just some stress. ha.

How familiar that is. When my uBPDh was in his bad phase, he frequently lashed out, insisting that I was the problem. Or certain friends or family. It was never him. Always someone else. There were conversations when he would make a statement and not 5 minutes later, attribute the statement to me without the slightest pause or hint of irony. Even now that he's on more solid ground emotionally and mentally, when he's a little moody, he'll blame others (and then quickly snap back and be far more rational).

The way it was explained to me by some was that pwBPD have a very strong sense of shame. It is extremely difficult for them to acknowledge and admit that they might have a real problem. So much easier for them to project their own problems onto others. If they can blame others, it's not their fault. Maybe, deep down, she sees her own problems and the role she's playing, but her PD keeps her from admitting it. The only way she knows how to deal with it is project it onto you. Deny. Deflect.

Unfair. Frustrating. But through the prism of BPD, it makes a kind of sense.

I want the fighting over nothing to stop.

To her, though, is it "nothing"? One thing I learned: The thing my uBPDh was ranting about was often not really what he was ranting about. Just something to think about.

[Enabler]

What Ozzie101 said... spot on

I was encouraged to go to a T on my own, I went... T says to me "So what brings you here", I responded, "My W says that I am abusive to her and I have anger issues"... "Do you think you're abusive?"... "No, I get angry, I get really angry some times but only when she treats me really badly and does horrible things to me."... "Well lets park that word, it's not helpful."

I have been seeing the T for the last 2 years, every week initially and now almost to maintenance levels of once a month. I love seeing my T, I ask him to challenge me, I'm metaphorically emotionally naked in front of him, not once has ever mentioned I have a PD etc.

My W saw a T for a year, initially she wrote how she thought her T was awesome... then mysterious in Jan18 she claimed that the T relationship came to a "logical conclusion"... the logical conclusion wasn't clear, since she had been given 'homework' from our legal mediator to petition for Divorce in the Nov and still hadn't sent off the simple forms in Mar18.

Take your ears elsewhere when she makes accusations. If you are to say anything I suggest you say "I'm focusing on me, I suggest you do the same. I'm happy to discuss your findings about you in a couples session." The classic here is, what if she told you there were Unicorns feeding on multicoloured mushrooms in the front garden... would you believe her?

Enabler

[Spam591]

What Ozzie101 said... spot on

I was encouraged to go to a T on my own, I went... T says to me "So what brings you here", I responded, "My W says that I am abusive to her and I have anger issues"... "Do you think you're abusive?"... "No, I get angry, I get really angry some times but only when she treats me really badly and does horrible things to me."... "Well lets park that word, it's not helpful."

I have been seeing the T for the last 2 years, every week initially and now almost to maintenance levels of once a month. I love seeing my T, I ask him to challenge me, I'm metaphorically emotionally naked in front of him, not once has ever mentioned I have a PD etc.

My W saw a T for a year, initially she wrote how she thought her T was awesome... then mysterious in Jan18 she claimed that the T relationship came to a "logical conclusion"... the logical conclusion wasn't clear, since she had been given 'homework' from our legal mediator to petition for Divorce in the Nov and still hadn't sent off the simple forms in Mar18.

Take your ears elsewhere when she makes accusations. If you are to say anything I suggest you say "I'm focusing on me, I suggest you do the same. I'm happy to discuss your findings about you in a couples session." The classic here is, what if she told you there were Unicorns feeding on multicoloured mushrooms in the front garden... would you believe her?

Enabler

I was believing her. She really got into my head with all of the demeaning comments (you're fat, you're ugly, you're a disappointment of a husband, you're just a dude paying my way through school, you are this much in debt and only have this much to your name, you lurk around the house like a creep, you need to knock before you come into the house) My favorite comment was from last night. She said " if I'm sleeping you need to tell me before you pull the covers towards you" bahaha like what? So instead of just adjusting the covers because she had all of them after we had both been laying in bed sleeping for an hour I need to wake her up and inform her I will be adjusting the covers.

Any insight on what is happening in her head? Nothing I do is right. Everything I do scares her and pushes her further away. Maybe physical distance will start to get her to come around? Maybe I should just be cold back? Ignore her? I dunno

[once removed]

Any insight on what is happening in her head? Nothing I do is right. Everything I do scares her and pushes her further away. Maybe physical distance will start to get her to come around? Maybe I should just be cold back? Ignore her? I dunno

typically when we direct our behavior to try to change someone elses behavior, or get into tit for tat, we are not only increasing the dysfunction in the relationship, but a person does not usually see the light and change their ways...they do more of it.

let your values dictate your actions here.

[Enabler]

Do not play games, do not entertain games and do not acknowledge games. I suggest behaving in a kind manner... what does this mean?

Kind manner:

If you’re cooking food, offer her food
If you’re pouring a drink, ask her if she wants one
Ask her if she’s had a good day and listen to her response with care and consideration. Ask light questions if she seems amenable.
If she has a practical problem you can be of assistance to, offer help or guidance (note offer, don’t just do, she may not want you to do or offer advice).
Not feeling compelled to return fire or get involved in Tit-for-tat mud slinging, take your ears elsewhere.
Having integrity and being honest

NOT kind manner:

Devious revenge plans, don’t roll with pigs, you get muddy and they love it. She’s been playing games her whole life, you are but a novice, you will just up the anti.
Telling her everything about you whilst hearing nothing about her.
Begging
Doing things that are against your values
Being made to dance like a jester (ask before reclaiming duvet, knocking when entering your own home (appreciate knocking when entering a room she might be naked in is reasonable).
Tolerating behaviour because she says it should be tolerable.
Accepting her utopia which is that YOU have no boundaries for her whilst SHE has an endless set of rules for YOU.

Put simply, these rules are to control you, to put you in an emotional straightjacket, because you hurt her feelings. She doesn’t want her feelings hurt so by having control of you she believes she will be able to stop that. Her feelings are hurt regardless of whether or not you behave in a reasonable manner. Assuming you don’t want to hurt her, attempting to behave in a reasonable “best in class manner” without jumping through her hoops is the best you can hope for, however she’s still going to be hurt by that behaviour and you just have to accept that.

Enabler

[Spam591]

Do not play games, do not entertain games and do not acknowledge games. I suggest behaving in a kind manner... what does this mean?

Kind manner:

If you’re cooking food, offer her food
If you’re pouring a drink, ask her if she wants one
Ask her if she’s had a good day and listen to her response with care and consideration. Ask light questions if she seems amenable.
If she has a practical problem you can be of assistance to, offer help or guidance (note offer, don’t just do, she may not want you to do or offer advice).
Not feeling compelled to return fire or get involved in Tit-for-tat mud slinging, take your ears elsewhere.
Having integrity and being honest

NOT kind manner:

Devious revenge plans, don’t roll with pigs, you get muddy and they love it. She’s been playing games her whole life, you are but a novice, you will just up the anti.
Telling her everything about you whilst hearing nothing about her.
Begging
Doing things that are against your values
Being made to dance like a jester (ask before reclaiming duvet, knocking when entering your own home (appreciate knocking when entering a room she might be naked in is reasonable).
Tolerating behaviour because she says it should be tolerable.
Accepting her utopia which is that YOU have no boundaries for her whilst SHE has an endless set of rules for YOU.

Put simply, these rules are to control you, to put you in an emotional straightjacket, because you hurt her feelings. She doesn’t want her feelings hurt so by having control of you she believes she will be able to stop that. Her feelings are hurt regardless of whether or not you behave in a reasonable manner. Assuming you don’t want to hurt her, attempting to behave in a reasonable “best in class manner” without jumping through her hoops is the best you can hope for, however she’s still going to be hurt by that behaviour and you just have to accept that.

Enabler

I was doing this until like last night. Just ignoring her coldness and responding with kindness. Anything negative she threw my way I was just ignoring or apologizing for things I may have done to actually hurt her. Im just super fed up with the coldness and distance and lack of effort to repair our marriage. I mean we have been married for less than 9ish months. She has already cheated and now is asking for a separation and has completely stopped trying. What a nightmare.

[Enabler]

Yes, this is stuff of nightmares. You might be lucky and poof like magic you open you’re eyes and it all goes away... but I doubt it. There are choices you need to make at some point. Choices about what you want and what outcomes for your future are tenable. You nee to be realistic about what those outcomes look like and not paint a rainbow to a pot of gold. For now, finding comedy in the ridiculousness of your situation maybe a solution. The number of times I’ve heard “you should write a book about this... it’s mental”.

This is mentally tough and physically draining... I’ll not sugar coat it for you. Hopefully that pain is an incentive to make changes (and that’s not me suggesting a divorce is the right thing fwiw).

Enabler

[Spam591]

Well guys! I just caught her lying to me about where she was tonight! She again told me she was going to go hang out with a certain friend. I contacted that friend and she wasn’t with her. I kept reaching out to her and she wouldn’t answer the phone.

I’m 99.99999% positive she was with another man tonight. What the heck! I’m so upset. But it makes total sense based on how she has been acting.

[Frustrated38]

Do you have children with her?  If you don’t I think you should end it just from reading this thread. She doesn’t really seem to care about you at all. Then go work on yourself and become the best version you can be before you even think about getting into another relationship. 

[Spam591]

She was lying to me because she was mad. She showed me time stamp pics and she was at the house the entire time. What’s frustrating is she cheated on me in an almost identical manner. Now she is mad because I accused her of cheating. Lol

This is so ridiculous. I find myself feeling so detached from her these days but have these moments of panic when I think about her not in my life anymore. Although she emotionally hasn’t been in my life in weeks.

[Enabler]

Detective work is tricky and full of massive potholes on the way. I'm not suggesting this is the route you should pursuit but if you find yourself playing detective there are some very "smart" rules to follow.

- Do not share your findings with anyone
- Sharing information rarely leads to change in behaviour, just your ability to detect that behaviour.
- Approaching someone with an accusation with loopholes invariably leads to them denying... then where are you?
- The obvious conclusion to you isn't necessarily the correct one.
- This is about truth management which feeds into reality management.
- Sitting on information often results in you reassessing your initial conclusion.
- Manage your own cognitive bias's
- Think about what will happen if the friend you contact, contacts her to tell her you're checking on her... think about the secondary impacts of your actions.

Trust in her has gone. Trust is unlikely to come back until both of you become fully accountable to each other, accepting there is a reason for the lack of trust and addressing how that reason can be resolved. A relationship without trust is difficult if not impossible. A relationship where lack of trust is verbalised is arguably even harder to recover from. I am not suggesting you should trust her, I'm suggesting you verbalising your lack of trust is counterproductive and is likely making things worse.

I suggest you become an information charm. Improve the clarity of your own reality and work on making your mind up about what YOU want to do. Avoid jumping to conclusions and leave all possibilities on the table until you have sufficient evidence rather than jumping to conclusions.

Enabler

[Harri]

This thread reached the post limit and has been locked.  Part 2 is here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=336596.msg13053444#msg13053444