A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships...

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

My spouse has been diagnosed as having traits of BPD, but honestly, they exhibit 8 out of 9 signs.  Everything but suicide threats.

"A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships" is such a vague description and can mean so many things.  I've read a lot of other peoples stories, and this aspect seems to show itself in so many ways.

So, I hope to ask in the next few days if others experience what I've been experiencing.  Sort of like a reality check for myself, because I'm started to doubt my own sanity.

I'd like to ask if you pwBPD has problems recognizing their anger?  My pwPBD has no recognition of her anger.  Angry face, angry body langunge, words...  But, when I asked them about it, I've been screamed at, "I'm not angry!"

Has anyone else gone through this?

Thanks

[Old Quaker]

My spouse has been diagnosed as having traits of BPD, but honestly, they exhibit 8 out of 9 signs.  Everything but suicide threats.

"A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships" is such a vague description and can mean so many things.  I've read a lot of other peoples stories, and this aspect seems to show itself in so many ways.

So, I hope to ask in the next few days if others experience what I've been experiencing.  Sort of like a reality check for myself, because I'm started to doubt my own sanity.

I'd like to ask if you pwBPD has problems recognizing their anger?  My pwPBD has no recognition of her anger.  Angry face, angry body langunge, words...  But, when I asked them about it, I've been screamed at, "I'm not angry!"

Has anyone else gone through this?

Thanks

[Red5]

Old Quaker wrote: I'd like to ask if you pwBPD has problems recognizing their anger?  My pwPBD has no recognition of her anger.  Angry face, angry body langunge, words...  But, when I asked them about it, I've been screamed at, "I'm not angry!"

My wife and I had a symblance of a conversation about this last weekend over dinner... well it was more like low volume projection as we were sitting in a pub table at the bar in the local Outback, and she drove... so there was no escape, I knew this going in... we have been separated for seven months now, and we are “attempting to reconnect”, eg’ this was kind of a date...

Anyways... she says to me, “I told you when we were dating (summer of 2007) that I had a temper”...

Almost as though this proclamation is a permanent laminated hall pass to treat people as she wants to, “I have a temper”.

I asked her, “why do you think you have this temper “Q”?”...

She seems to think it’s alright, she said... “that’s who I am Red”... “I need a Man who will stand up to me”... she said !

So, why does she have such a self professed hot and sometime out of control temper (her exact words)... hmmm, early programming (trauma)... genes... heredity of her foo (family of origin)?

To answer your question... she absolutely recognizes that she has a temper... she’s been like this her whole life, but seems to not be able to, or want to control it...

A pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships...

Her history is clear, and goes back way before me, spanning four boyfriends and an ex husband whom she married at age sixteen, he was twenty two then (1984)... yes, a turmultuois history... long before we met, dated and married...

She did “warn” me,

Another thing I’ve come to understand, without recognition, and the forethought of seeking therapy, not much is likely to change, as the individual progress in their life, ie’ ages... my beautiful wife whom I do love very much (FOG?) will be fifty three next spring... so change as I may perceive is not likely... enter “radical acceptance”.

Yes, she recognizes... but at this point in time, the accountability peice is not there... which is quite common as I understand with some persons whom are borderline, either diagnosed or not.

Red5

[Cat Familiar]

My current husband is high functioning, but he has definitely had “a pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships.”

I’m wife number four.    You’d think I would have though more deeply about this after being previously married to a man with BPD/ASPD/NPD, but whatever...

By his telling, all wives either betrayed him or abused him.

#1 in college apparently believed she had entered into a polyamorous marriage and that was not what he’d signed up for.

#2 he married when she was quite young. His best friend was carrying on an affair with her before they even married. I know all the players in this scenario and it’s true.

#3 he married reluctantly out of a sense of obligation. She glommed onto him and he wasn’t too enthusiastic, but he was lonely after divorcing wife #2. She was formerly his best friend’s partner (the one who had the affair with wife #2). This wife was terribly abusive to him, or so he said. I know her and can imagine that it would be true.

I’m not sure what this tells about him, other than perhaps having poor judgment about people. He is still friends with wife #2 and she’s a very nice person. She really grew up emotionally, realized the guy she had an affair with was a narcissist, and married a nice guy and now has two kids.

[GaGrl]

I’m wife number four.    You’d think I would have thought more deeply about this...

This immediately made me think of my BFF from childhood. She was explaining why she turned down a date with a thrice-married man who had concert tickets for an Elvis Presley concert (early 70s, we were in our early twenties).

Now you have to imagine a real, down-home Alabama accent here...

 " Honey, I'm sorry -- but THREE women can't be that wrong! ".

 

[Cat Familiar]

 " Honey, I'm sorry -- but THREE women can't be that wrong! ".


   

[Old Quaker]

But...

I'd like to ask if you pwBPD has problems recognizing their anger?  My pwPBD has no recognition of her anger.  Angry face, angry body langunge, words...  But, when I asked them about it, I've been screamed at, "I'm not angry!"

Has anyone else gone through this?

Thanks

[Scarlet Phoenix]

Hi OldQuaker!
The feeling of always being in the line of fire is awful. Is that what's happening?

I don't really know if my ex was aware or not. I know that asking him about it was not helpful, because it made him feel like something was wrong with him, that he wasn't normal. That's what he explained to me, anyways, in moments of calm. So I quit asking, and rather behaved as if he wasn't angry. Usually he would soon switch gears if I did that. Or if I found his attitude/behaviour too unpleasant, I would leave the room and go do something else.

I read this as it is important for you that she recognise this. Is that correct? I don't know that she will. Maybe it's better to put that aside that for now, and rather work on how you can set boundaries for yourself for what you want to be around and not. Boundaries is something we can help you with. What do you think?

I know you're new here, so just take it at your own pace.
We sit with you where you are.

[GaGrl]

 I think people with BPD often had a childhood in which their emotions were invalidated and denied. That includes anger --anger being an emotion that many families can't or don't handle well. If a child is good often that he/she is not angry , that child grows up not being able to make that emotion.

Does your wife have trouble making other emotions?

[Old Quaker]

My wife really isn't a rager.  I rarely feeling like I'm in the line of fire.  But, she gets angry when we discuss relationship issues, where I mention a need she might not be filling, or if I try to explain how she reacts to being told she missed the mark on something.

She really has an aversion to any constructive criticism.  I don't think she feels she's always right, but she can't handle someone telling her she was wrong about something, or did something incorrectly.  It's caused a lot of problems in her career. So many job losses for not following directions.   She has problems taking direction or working on a team.  Somehow, being told she did something incorrectly makes her feel really bad about herself.

And when that she feels bad about herself, she attacks the person who made her feel that way.

My wife grew up in a very strict Baptist family.  Not a lot of fire and brimstone, but the family was expected to act a certain way.  Negative emotions were not allowed to be expressed.  No sadness, no anger, no frustration.  Everyone had to act happy all the time.  And trust in Jesus...

Her mother told her that she and her father never had a disagreement.  And she never heard one.  She never saw her parents have an argument.  She was told if you love someone, you would never be angry at them.  So, she thought that's how marriage is.  She would never start a relationship conversation.  Actually, to this day, still has never started one.  She would act happy, keep everything in, and go postal about once a year.  And she felt that I didn't love her if I criticized her in some trivial way.  Like "Honey, can you pick your clothes off the floor?"  BTW - that never changed.  I just got done picking all her clothes up, from the living room, bathroom, and the floor next to her side of the bed.

Which is just so unrealistic.  People get angry, it's normal.  But to have a normal emotion, and be told it's unacceptable really messed her up.

To this day, she does not realize just how angry she gets.  Both verbally and non verbally.  But, because her family did not communicate, most of her communication is non verbal.  Eye rolls, frowns, refusing to make eye contact.

I mention the communication issues the family had, and the suppression of emotions.  The thing is though, there was a lot to communicate about, and there was a lot to be angry and unhappy about.  Her father lost his job when she was 7, and didn't get another good job until she was in high school.  He supported the family as a housepainter, but they lived in abject poverty.

Beautiful house, perfect looking children.  To the outside, they were the perfect family.  Inside things were really bad.  So poor that they often didn't have anything for dinner.  They were all very skinny, and malnourished.  They didn't have much hot water.  Kept the heat at 55 in the winter.  Wore rags to school.  Once things broke, like the clothes dryer, they didn't have the money to fix them.

So, my wife had a really tough childhood, and was in a lot of emotional pain, but wasn't allowed to express it.  Everyone was supposed to be happy with what the Lord provided.

Tough pill for a 7 year old to swallow.

But, why is this so important to me?  Well, we've been married for 32 years, together for 35.  And there was a very cruel infidelity 19 years ago, with a lot of extenuating circumstances and issues.  In a way, I need a BPD board and an infidelity board.  I was lied to about a lot of those aspects for a long time, and some of the things I was put through then, I somehow buried, and they came back to the surface a few years ago.

So, I've been trying to save our marriage, and save my love for her by getting the truth out of her, as I should have back when it happened.  In a lot of ways I wish I had left her when it happened, but I didn't, and I need to save what I have left.

She gets angry when I try to get her to see that her way of thinking back then was clouded by multiple addictions and depression.  She gets angry during every topic we discuss.

I was told some really horrible things back then.  Things that I didn't think a person would say to another person.  Some of the things I experienced are hard for any man to get over.  I was told things that most people could never get over.  I was told 20 distinct things about myself that caused her to have an affair.  One was that she just needed to be with a man her own height for a while.  My wife is quite a bit taller than me.  And there were much worse things I was told...  I'm trying to keep this SFW.

I need to know the truth about some things before I can move on.  And at my age, 64, it seems I'll be leaving this earth before I get any peace.

[Red5]

I think people with BPD often had a childhood in which their emotions were invalidated and denied.

That includes anger --anger being an emotion that many families can't or don't handle well.

If a child is good often that he/she is not angry , that child grows up not being able to make that emotion.

My ubpdw told me a few stories of her childhood, growing up as the third sister of three, also with a younger brother, one such story was… "dad came home from work one night, and did not like what mom had cooked, he picked up the bowl of mashed potatoes, and threw it against the wall… and then left"…

No ask yourself (Red5), why would she even tell you this, something that happened well over forty five years ago, in her childhood why?… but when we dated, she said she had a "wonderful childhood"… bravo sierra : (

I asked a few questions, and took 'mental copious notes' over the years, trying to reverse engineer the undx (suspected) bpd… so I could find way to not trigger, and to try to survive the day to day with her (ubpdw), and most of what I heard was confirmed by the other two 'frog prince' BIL's on fishing trips, and as well back yard shed "man time" during Thanksgiving, or other foo family get togethers… it was always intriguing to me, that these two other "husbands" would want to "talk" about the crazy when their wives were 100 yards away and out of earshot in the house.

They are married to the two older sisters, we are talking 30 & 32 years each respectively married…

The younger brother passed, at age 40, heart attack… he is another ball of yarn, as per ubpdw and the stories of the fellow BIL's…

A few bullets, from my "notes".

*dad didn't cook mom did.
*dad didn't (in fact) do any house chores, mom did it all.
*mom waited on dad hand and foot (BIL's description).
*"dad" was a selfish basterd according to BIL # 2.
*dad liked his liquor.
*dad only thought of himself.
*dad didn't ever like your wife's (Red5's ubpdw) first husband (but he let her marry him at age sixteen?).
*dad and mom never went anywhere to see the grandkids, or the kids (other siblings) once they left home.

There is much more, but I wont go into it here, only to corroborate what GaGrl has written, in regards to anger and emotion that many families can't or don't handle well, or are afraid too, due to the hostility of a parental figure (dad?), so the child grows up not being able to handle that emotion, and it manifests itself in their adult life, creating the "pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships"...

Another thing you may want to read about, and compare to your own loved one… is the role each child plays in a dysfunctional family in childhood, when there are multiple siblings, I this case four (4)… they play roles via the parents dysfunction, eg' the "golden child", the "scapegoat", the "court jester", the "invisible one"… the "good child, the "bad child"… on and on, & all very interesting, and all taken as "emotional luggage" into the adult life…

The more you learn and understand, about your loved one, significant other, and their suspected borderline, and the causes, usually childhood trauma, and the suspected (family secrets) trauma that may in fact go well beyond throwing a bowl of mashed potatoes against the wall, in front of the children, and the mom…

… hope this helps,

Red5

[Red5]

Old Quaker wrote: She really has an aversion to any constructive criticism.  I don't think she feels she's always right, but she can't handle someone telling her she was wrong about something, or did something incorrectly.  It's caused a lot of problems in her career. So many job losses for not following directions.   She has problems taking direction or working on a team.  Somehow, being told she did something incorrectly makes her feel really bad about herself.

And when that she feels bad about herself, she attacks the person who made her feel that way.

Exact same scenario with my wife,

And yes, the history of the family of origin (foo) is always full of circumstances, and causes .. as you describe above.

There is always a precursor to the borderline… along the lines of cptsd resulting in the inability  to maintain "lability" [labile] in a long term marriage relationship, if therapy is not sought.

Red5

[cbalzly]

The person in my life definitely can't see his anger.  It seems as if saying he was angry is one of the biggest insults I can use.  In his mind he is "blunt" "upfront" or "frustrated" but he is never angry.  but in those moments all I can feel is anger and rage.   It can be such a mind game.

[Old Quaker]

cbalzly, That is exactly the behavior I'm talking about.  No awareness of the negative emotion pouring out of her.  And the screaming, "I'm not angry!" just gets to be too much.  Same here, not angry, I'm frustrated, tired, but never angry.

Interesting thing today.  We had a new security system installed with a door bell sensor.  It caught her RBF today perfectly and she asked, "Do I look like that?"

So, perhaps this will bring some awareness.

[Cat Familiar]

She really has an aversion to any constructive criticism.  I don't think she feels she's always right, but she can't handle someone telling her she was wrong about something, or did something incorrectly...She has problems taking direction or working on a team.  Somehow, being told she did something incorrectly makes her feel really bad about herself.

And when that she feels bad about herself, she attacks the person who made her feel that way.

I often experience this pattern with my husband. Yesterday he was driving and almost made a left turn as a car was quickly coming around the corner. I yelled, “Whoa!”

He stopped, but then got upset as if I was criticizing him and became defensive, saying that he saw that car.

I told him that there was no way I was going to keep my mouth shut since if that car were to hit us, it would hit my side.

I’ve learned to quickly drop the subject and change the topic and he adjusted and calmed down. It’s taken a while for this to become a workable pattern.

Later when he was parking the car, he got nervous since there were cars waiting behind him. He’s a terrible parallel parker. After he finally got it parked and we were walking to the restaurant, I asked him if he’d like some feedback on his parking.

He said yes, surprisingly. (I’m pushing the limits here—and he’s learning to tolerate more candor.) So I told him that he’s almost starting with a 70 degree angle and trying to adjust as he approaches the curb, instead of more of a 45 degree angle like the car we were watching park as we walked.

He still got upset somewhat, but it’s much better than how he used to react a few years ago. I just changed the subject and all was good.

Old Quaker, Your wife is obviously angry. Trying to get her to admit that is not serving you well. Wouldn’t it be better to adjust your behavior to minimize the anger? How do you think you could do that?

[Panda39]

What I'm hearing is shame in anyway makes your wife defensive and then angry. She can not tolerate Shame.

It's a hard job trying to be perfect because none of us is.  But your wife's entire childhood was about being perfect, about keeping up appearances, she learned that showing weakness, or lack of money or anything like that was considered shameful/embarrassing.  Imagine years of hiding your family's difficult situations and hiding your feelings...horrible. 

Anger seems to be her reaction to shame - whether she knows it is or not.  It seems to me that pressing her about an affair 19 years ago that she no doubt feels a lot of shame about is likely to trigger defensiveness and anger. 

I also understand that you need to process what happened.  Have you ever tried Therapy for yourself or a Marriage Counselor together?  Maybe that would be helpful to facilitate processing the affair or facilitate the conversation you need to have with your wife.

We also have some communication tools that you might find helpful.

Using SET (Support, Empathy, Truth) for example.  More on SET below...
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=143695.0

Take Care,
Panda39

[GaGrl]

We are getting a much clearer idea of your challenges and your wife's behaviors -- thank you for sharing, as it helps us help you.

Much of my family is Southern Baptist. Anger was not an acceptable emotion. It was ugly -- " Now, don't be ugly, Gagrl... "
and it wasn't Christ-like. I was often invalidated when I expressed an opinion that went against the grain -- "Now, Gagrl , you don't really think that... ". Many families had what I call a church veneer -- everyone was the surface of perfect families and rarely got a glimpse of what was really going on behind the front door.

There's invalidation, and then there's shame, as Panda points out. Your wife certainly had reason to feel shame over some things she had no control over.

Is it your wife's lack of awareness of her behaviors and emotions that is your immediate concern right now? Your example of the doorbell video is telling!video

My DH (dear husband) has a uBPD/BPD ex-wife (this is why and how I found my way to the forum), and their legal marriage of 33 years consisted of near-constant and flagrant infidelities. They lived separately after 19 years -- DH was quite depressed. She priced herself that she never lied; DH says it was one lie after another. So I think the issue of infidelity shows up differently in different couples...but it is devastating and difficult to deal with in any circumstance.

[Old Quaker]

So much to think about.  I've gotten such good advice.

I need to read it all again and respond to it all, but for now...

GaGrl and Panda, you're both onto something here.  Red, and others, haven't forgotten about you.

GaGrl:  She had the same childhood you describe, almost to a t.  And I remember when she first started seeing a therapist, there was talk of shame, but I was never part of the therapy and I don't know where that went.  But, yes - perfect to the outside world, and keep their troubles a secret - it was shameful.  They were taught not to let anyone know how bad things were.  To this day it almost brings me to tears to think of my wife going hungry as a child...

She has cheated on me with three different men that I know of.  I suspect many more because of the many business trips she went on, she's very attractive, and she likes to drink, and likes to flirt.  She's had crushes on other men for most of our marriage and thinks it's normal.  She also belonged to an organization where she went to meetings twice a month.  A few times when I mentioned those meetings to others, I got a quizzical look.

Really thinking about the shame thing here.  Feeling shame, instead of guilt makes sense in how she acts.  She rarely acts in a way that makes you think she's considering my feelings.  It usually seems her feelings overwhelm her to the point she can't consider mine.  Shame is pointed inwards, guilt is outwards.

Ran across this article comparing shame and guilt.  Really very interesting.  I remember when she was seeing her first therapist, saw 7 all together.  This first therapist told her that "guilt is a wasted emotion".  Encouraged her to sweep it under the rug and tell me as little as possible.  But, he never helped her deal with shame.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/shame/201305/the-difference-between-guilt-and-shame


As far as therapy for me, after seeing 7 therapists only make it worse for my wife and I, no thanks...

[empath]

My husband grew up in a family that was in leadership within their Baptist denomination. The kids were to present the "perfect" family to others, emotions were not to be expressed. There's a longer history with my father in law's family of origin, too.

My husband struggles with shame to a large extent - he believes he is a "monster" for the things he has done. Empathy is difficult for him; his reference is always how he would feel. He has had some therapy, too, but he wasn't really honest with his therapist because of the shame. It was easier to shift the blame to me and come up with other explanations. Eventually, one of his therapists managed to pick up on that and got him to consent to have me talk with the therapist.

He is living in a separate apartment, now, by his choice which happened after some other events that caused him to feel shame again. 

[GaGrl]

I have seen that Psychology Today article before.

So..."shame is directed inward, guilt outward. "

My master coach (firing my coaching certification) helped me understand Shame vs. Guilt by saying...

Shame is cultural -- Guilt is personal.

I think this relates to the Inward vs. Outward. What do you think?

For example, if someone feels shame, is it because they are dealing with cultural mores and values?  If a culture values family stability, an income adequate to feed/house/clothe one's family -- and every day of a child's life, she knows she is evidence of her family not meeting those values (old clothes,  not enough to eat, etc.) she will feel shame. In a personal example -- I have strong cultural values of equality and justice for all people; in reality, I have to be honest that my ancestors were slaveholders.  I feel shame for that reality; it is not my chosen beliefs and values, and the way I live life -- but the shame is based on culture and the way life was over 150 years ago, and I cannot change that those ancestors did what they did. Shame does not feel good.

Now if someone feels guilt, and Guilt is personal, that would indicate a more personal transgression, some action taken that a person bears accountability for --  a current transgression.

What I struggle with is how a pwBPD would operate between Shame and Guilt. It seems to me that it gets all "gummed up." As if the pwBPD felt shame and, as a result, took action on another person. But the accountability for the behavior is so wrapped up in Shame that they can't acknowledge Guilt and apologize. And if what they did is a violation of cultural mores ( "one is faithful to one's spouse), then it's back to Shame!

 Thoughts, anyone?