uBPD MIL Holiday/Special Day Stress

[Our abuse recovery guide]

I'm new to this group, seeking understanding and clarity!

After years of odd behavior from MIL (sharing intimate information about my husband, getting drunk at my daughter's 16th birthday, walking in on me and talking to me while I pee, calling me by the ex-wife's name for over a year, the list goes on, very dependent on my husband/her son, push/pull behavior that includes over the top flattery followed by uninvited critique, taking zero responsibility for hurtful behavior instead projecting it onto others, diagnosed anxiety/depression but she won't treat either), major fights with husband and years of feeling crazy, we started couples and individual counseling. Counselor suggested to me individually that my 72 year old MIL exhibits signs of BPD.

This is new. I'm familiar with narcissism and am in lifelong recovery from codependence, but I didn't know anything about BPD. Pieces are falling into place and for the first time in years I don't feel crazy, which is a relief. I'm studying and learning and it's helping me understand how to protect my peace and joy.

1. I'm curious to know how others have broached the subject with significant others, ie, children of BPD parents. My husband faces the unique pressure of being the only son (her husband died 10 years ago and her other son committed suicide 20 years ago). He thinks his relationship with his mom is healthy and normal. He is so heavily manipulated by her and unable/unwilling to allow some space between them. He will carefully admit that she's left a trail of broken relationships and says hurtful things, but 'that's just the way she is.' He has high blood pressure and since I've stepped out of the triangulation and removed myself from the conflict, he feels the full weight of her. He is desperate for help but if I don't offer to carry the weight, he'll carry it in full, without complaint, and I'm afraid the stress will be the end of him.

2. I'm also curious to know if it's common for those with BPD to use grief to control. I've been very patient with his mom until a recent trip when we were painting her bedroom for her, and she pushed a very sensitive nerve. I cried, but I wasn't rude or hateful. I tried to speak simply and directly, but in the two months that followed, it's been absolute hell...which is what prompted counseling. His mom has thrown fits since then, refusing to come to our house, then refusing to come unless I call her to invite her, crying saying we hate her, and apparently she can't help being a horrible person. No amount of reassurance helps.

It was my husband's birthday last week. On his birthday, he made plans to go see his mom and in his words, "we're going to clean off my dad and brother's gravestones. That's what I want to do." He came home that night in a funk, grieving over the loss of his dad and brother, sad about the state of their gravestones and just torn up about his mom's grief. The next day we held a family/friends party and did all of his favorite things. I've never seen him that disconnected from investment and love before. He was checked out, almost rude to his friends. It really shocked me. When I asked if he was ok, he said he was still sad about his mom, dad and brother and still thinking about their gravestones. When I asked why he chose that particular activity for his birthday, he said, "because I knew that's what Mom wanted." I didn't condemn anything his mom did, which just makes him defensive and take ownership of her bad behavior, but I did share that it made me sad to see him sad on his birthday. I encouraged him to set better boundaries around his birthday and do things that brought him joy, talked about setting boundaries around grief...that sort of thing.

Is it possible she set him up to feel that way? She seems committed to unhappiness, though she certainly complains about it. I'm wondering if knowing that his party was coming up, knowing that he might be happy, was just too much for her and she had to orchestrate it so that he would feel sad, like her, so she wouldn't feel so alone. I'm also curious to know if BPD families and children navigate grief differently? My husband and his mom both feel very stuck in their grief. (I am not in a position to point this out. I have been through traumatic and awful experiences, but they both carefully suggest that I could never understand and my comments are just calloused..."I hope you never understand what it's like to lose your dad," even though I have completely lost contact with my dad)

Still learning. Questions I need to ask? Things to think about? I appreciate your time.   

[pursuingJoy]

I'm new to this group, seeking understanding and clarity!

After years of odd behavior from MIL (sharing intimate information about my husband, getting drunk at my daughter's 16th birthday, walking in on me and talking to me while I pee, calling me by the ex-wife's name for over a year, the list goes on, very dependent on my husband/her son, push/pull behavior that includes over the top flattery followed by uninvited critique, taking zero responsibility for hurtful behavior instead projecting it onto others, diagnosed anxiety/depression but she won't treat either), major fights with husband and years of feeling crazy, we started couples and individual counseling. Counselor suggested to me individually that my 72 year old MIL exhibits signs of BPD.

This is new. I'm familiar with narcissism and am in lifelong recovery from codependence, but I didn't know anything about BPD. Pieces are falling into place and for the first time in years I don't feel crazy, which is a relief. I'm studying and learning and it's helping me understand how to protect my peace and joy.

1. I'm curious to know how others have broached the subject with significant others, ie, children of BPD parents. My husband faces the unique pressure of being the only son (her husband died 10 years ago and her other son committed suicide 20 years ago). He thinks his relationship with his mom is healthy and normal. He is so heavily manipulated by her and unable/unwilling to allow some space between them. He will carefully admit that she's left a trail of broken relationships and says hurtful things, but 'that's just the way she is.' He has high blood pressure and since I've stepped out of the triangulation and removed myself from the conflict, he feels the full weight of her. He is desperate for help but if I don't offer to carry the weight, he'll carry it in full, without complaint, and I'm afraid the stress will be the end of him.

2. I'm also curious to know if it's common for those with BPD to use grief to control. I've been very patient with his mom until a recent trip when we were painting her bedroom for her, and she pushed a very sensitive nerve. I cried, but I wasn't rude or hateful. I tried to speak simply and directly, but in the two months that followed, it's been absolute hell...which is what prompted counseling. His mom has thrown fits since then, refusing to come to our house, then refusing to come unless I call her to invite her, crying saying we hate her, and apparently she can't help being a horrible person. No amount of reassurance helps.

It was my husband's birthday last week. On his birthday, he made plans to go see his mom and in his words, "we're going to clean off my dad and brother's gravestones. That's what I want to do." He came home that night in a funk, grieving over the loss of his dad and brother, sad about the state of their gravestones and just torn up about his mom's grief. The next day we held a family/friends party and did all of his favorite things. I've never seen him that disconnected from investment and love before. He was checked out, almost rude to his friends. It really shocked me. When I asked if he was ok, he said he was still sad about his mom, dad and brother and still thinking about their gravestones. When I asked why he chose that particular activity for his birthday, he said, "because I knew that's what Mom wanted." I didn't condemn anything his mom did, which just makes him defensive and take ownership of her bad behavior, but I did share that it made me sad to see him sad on his birthday. I encouraged him to set better boundaries around his birthday and do things that brought him joy, talked about setting boundaries around grief...that sort of thing.

Is it possible she set him up to feel that way? She seems committed to unhappiness, though she certainly complains about it. I'm wondering if knowing that his party was coming up, knowing that he might be happy, was just too much for her and she had to orchestrate it so that he would feel sad, like her, so she wouldn't feel so alone. I'm also curious to know if BPD families and children navigate grief differently? My husband and his mom both feel very stuck in their grief. (I am not in a position to point this out. I have been through traumatic and awful experiences, but they both carefully suggest that I could never understand and my comments are just calloused..."I hope you never understand what it's like to lose your dad," even though I have completely lost contact with my dad)

Still learning. Questions I need to ask? Things to think about? I appreciate your time.   

[JNChell]

Hi, pursuingJoy. Welcome to  bpdfamily. That was a very interesting read. I’m sorry that you’re experiencing these things, but it can get better.

Your MIL doesn’t respect boundaries at all. She walked in on you peeing. Ugh. You see the problem, your husband was raised and conditioned by that problem. Here in lies the crux. What to do?

pwBPD and other behavioral problems often use manipulation (grief control) to control things and mold them to a false reality. These people are stuck and can’t stand it when those close to them try to pull away. There are many variances to that, but you get it.

The gravestone thing sounds like a total manipulation. He didn’t pick that for his birthday.

What would you like to achieve? We’re here for you.

[pursuingJoy]

JNChell your validation is helpful. As far as what I want to accomplish, I am hoping that our counselor can earn my husband's trust enough to broach the subject with him. Who knows - maybe he will find relief in knowing there is something diagnosable? His stress in dealing with her is so evident, but he's become a master at suppressing emotion and refuses to admit that he is overwhelmed.

The grief conversation is sad and frustrating for me. It's been 10/20 years since he's lost his dad/brother. When I suggested that he protect his birthday for celebration, he responded with "some people just can't understand unless they've lost a parent." I used to feel shame when he said things like that because it made me feel like I wasn't empathetic or sensitive enough (a shame trigger for me). Last night I made progress - I found my recovery footing, tried to let the shame go, and heard it as a warning that said, "back out of my comfort zone."

Thanks for responding. I appreciate the ability to reach out to a supportive, informed community.

[RavenWatcher]

Hello pursuingJoy, thank you for sharing. I am glad you found this site.

I can't offer you a lot of help or insight, but I wanted to respond to your first question - about approaching the issue with a child of uBPD. I am one of two siblings, children of an uBPD mother. A therapist suggested she might be BPD to me about eight years ago. I mentioned it to my brother that week. He listened, but I never felt like he heard, even when I brought it up occasionally over the years. Not until he started therapy this past year and his therapist suggested the same diagnosis to him. Now we are talking about it more and both of us are trying to understand what it means.

So I guess my response to you would be: Your couple's counselor told you privately, so I assume they felt there was a reason to not tell your husband? Is this something you could talk to the counselor more about to see how/when to tell him?

How your husband seems to be acting in relation to her is very much like what people in my family do: Easier to do what she wants, claiming its our choice when really its manipulation into making that choice, depression after exposure to her. Perhaps if he is going to see her around a birthday/holiday again you can have the family/friends party before he sees her?

While I don't know if this was an informed response, I hope it at least is supportive of you. It sounds like de-trianglization is working well for you so far, and maybe just modelling that behavior for your spouse will help him over time see there is a better way to get away from the drama.

[Panda39]

Hi pursuingJoy,

I'd like to join the others and say welcome. 

I agree with RavenWatcher if, how, or when to inform your husband should be a discussion you have with the Therapist.  In the meantime you can certainly talk about "behaviors" that you are seeing with your MIL without using the label "BPD".

I come at this from a slightly different angle my Partner has an undiagnosed BPD ex-wife (uBPDxw) and they share 2 daughters. Once we discovered BPD the above strategy was what he did regarding his daughters he did tell them about BPD later when they were older.  There can be stigma associated with using a label or your husband may not be ready to accept that information.

To him the dynamic he has with his mom is "normal" he has been living in this dysfunction his whole life, it will take him time to see the issues and learn new skills to act differently and kids of BPD Parents can be conditioned to react in certain ways to certain behaviors.  As an outsider it is much easier for you to see what is going on, you have a different upbringing to compare it to. 

Information on Enmeshment...
https://bpdfamily.com/content/was-part-your-childhood-deprived-emotional-incest

I'm hearing a lot of FOG (Fear, Obligation, Guilt) or emotional blackmail in the cemetery visit on your husband's birthday, below are links to more on FOG...
https://bpdfamily.com/content/emotional-blackmail-fear-obligation-and-guilt-fog
https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=82926.0

Kudos to you for jumping off the triangle!  That is an excellent skill you already have in your toolbelt 

One thing I do want to say also is that the only people we control is ourselves, we can not make anyone else do, say, act, believe anything they don't want to.  This journey can be frustrating because the other people in the mix don't do what we wish they would, or in the time we think it should take etc.  Patience will be key for you regarding your husband, he may not see something you see as problematic as a problem, he may not have good boundaries with his mom because he's been raised not to, he may not have the same tools in his toolbox that you do, he's maybe learned to "go along to get along" it can take time to unlearn a lifelong behavior etc. 

You can set another example (you control you and what you do), you can talk things over with him, you can support him, you can encourage and nudge but you can't do it for him.  Patience.

Again Welcome I'm glad you've jumped in, this is a great group, their is a lot of shared experience among the members here, there are tools, information, and you can just come and vent if you need to.  I encourage you to read the posts of other members on this board, I gained a lot of insight into how better relate to my Partners daughters and avoid pitfalls because of the members here.

Take Care,
Panda39

[pursuingJoy]

RavenWatcher, thanks for sharing your experience with your brother. Of course it makes sense that different people will absorb the news at different rates, but hearing your experience helps. Part of what I’m looking for is hope – hope that he might listen, might hear that there is a different way to do things. Right now I don’t see much.

In answer to your question, the counselor and I agreed that it was not yet time to share this observation with my husband because while he condemns the same behaviors in his ex-wife, if we get anywhere near his mom he gets very defensive. Enmeshment, self-blame, FOG and emotional incest are all realities, as is stigma. His youngest daughter was diagnosed with ADHD 4 years ago and he is still struggling to accept it. He used to intentionally skip her medication because he wanted her to learn how to cope without it. Thank goodness he has come to accept it, even see the positives in both medication and ADHD.

Panda39, thanks for the articles, I’m reading through them now. I appreciate the reminder about patience and the limits of what I can control. I agree, we can talk behaviors and address potential diagnosis later.

My primary concern, which intensifies my urgency and desire to control, or at least continue counseling: she is an aging uPBD that exhibits many waif symptoms. Her deepest and most desperate and persistent desire is to move in with us. When he talks to me, he agrees that it’s a bad idea. When he talks to her, it's like he and I never talked. No matter how much I tell him I don’t want her living with us, it inevitably comes up in conversation again. If I tell him I don’t want her living with us, my husband, who knows I love time with him, tells me “Then you just need to understand that I will have to go help her on our weekends together, and I’ll have to spend all holidays with her (since she’s alone), and I won’t be able to spend as much time with you.” So we go into (yet another) conversation about boundaries, how I would appreciate him checking with me about our plans for holidays before assuming that he would automatically spend every holiday at his mom’s. This last time I finally told him I heard it as a threat. Is it unusual to have the SAME CONVERSATIONS over and over? It’s so strange. I genuinely feel heard, then he talks to her and it’s like he and I never discussed anything.

Last week she decided that she only has 4 or 5 years left to live. (!)

I could go on. You both made me tear up. I so appreciate the wisdom and questions and hearing your experiences. It’s a relief to have an outlet where I don’t have to explain because there’s a baseline of understanding. I needed to hear from you and I hope someday I can help others the way you’re helping me. Thanks.

[pursuingJoy]

Was going to ask if it was normal for him to still kiss her on the mouth. I think I know the answer: it's weird, probably an indication of enmeshment in their case, but not out of the ordinary especially in other cultures. I think it's yucky but I don't say anything.