Req for Opinion/Insight: Broaching the Unspeakable

[Depression = 72% of members]

So I've learned enough by now to know that we can't just say,  "So, honey, seems like you probably have Borderline Personality Disorder. Why don't we do something about that?" 

But for my own case, at least, and undoubtedly others', going on with the madness is not possible - yet we do not want to give up without a fight. To that end, I am grappling with finding some way to attack the issue with my wife in some way that she can possibly tolerate.

And so I am asking for input from you out there that have more experience and knowledge than I.
 @Ozzie101,  @Once Removed,  @Harri,  @Red5, @Cat Familiar, and others that I have witnessed grand insight from thus far, I am eager for your thoughts particularly.

I thought of approaching her in as measured, objective, non-accusatory,  and scientific manner as possible about the situation. She is very intelligent and well-studied (BS in psychology and working thru a MS in social work - yes, irony is our constant companion).

Something like this: "How do you think I should handle it if you told me that I had a condition - and one of the symptoms of that condition was that it prevented me from knowing/observing/believing that I actually had said condition?"

And then progressing from there. The anosognosia might prevent her from seeing her BPD, but what about appealing to her cognitive side to consider the fact that she might have anosognosia...first. What do you think?

I could write more extensively, but I think the general approach is clear, so I won't expound any further just yet.
What do you all think? Especially anybody that attempted this before...I can't be the first to have thought of this.

Thanks. Stay strong everyone.

 - MLC

[MidLifCrysis1]

So I've learned enough by now to know that we can't just say,  "So, honey, seems like you probably have Borderline Personality Disorder. Why don't we do something about that?" 

But for my own case, at least, and undoubtedly others', going on with the madness is not possible - yet we do not want to give up without a fight. To that end, I am grappling with finding some way to attack the issue with my wife in some way that she can possibly tolerate.

And so I am asking for input from you out there that have more experience and knowledge than I.
 @Ozzie101,  @Once Removed,  @Harri,  @Red5, @Cat Familiar, and others that I have witnessed grand insight from thus far, I am eager for your thoughts particularly.

I thought of approaching her in as measured, objective, non-accusatory,  and scientific manner as possible about the situation. She is very intelligent and well-studied (BS in psychology and working thru a MS in social work - yes, irony is our constant companion).

Something like this: "How do you think I should handle it if you told me that I had a condition - and one of the symptoms of that condition was that it prevented me from knowing/observing/believing that I actually had said condition?"

And then progressing from there. The anosognosia might prevent her from seeing her BPD, but what about appealing to her cognitive side to consider the fact that she might have anosognosia...first. What do you think?

I could write more extensively, but I think the general approach is clear, so I won't expound any further just yet.
What do you all think? Especially anybody that attempted this before...I can't be the first to have thought of this.

Thanks. Stay strong everyone.

 - MLC

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Wicker Man]

If I may... My wife has been diagnosed with OCPD and it is sometimes dicy talking about her personality disorder directly -it can put her on the defensive (and...then... the wheels fly off)

I am currently trying to get her back into therapy.  OCPD is ego-syntonic (feels right to them) different mechanism that anosognosia -but same resultant net lack of helpful introspection. 

My 'tactic' now is to address how I do not want her to feel the stress of such a negative inner dialogue (need for perfection) -I just want her to have inner peace and happiness --this has the added benefit of being the truth... 

I suggested, with therapy, she might be able to get off the SSRIs -they make the rage manageable , but do not address the core issues which plague her.  She responded well to this notion.

Since your wife is so well educated in the field, might you showing concern for her emotional wellbeing be enough to get her to start to connect the dots?  In other words address things you have observed within her you wish she could find relief from -intimating there is the possibility of her being a happier person.  Ergo enter therapy.

I am not sure how this could be construed as an attack --but keep in mind I had no manner of luck with my undiagnosed ex... 

[Ozzie101]

Thanks for the compliment, MLC. This is something I've wondered about myself over the last year or so.

H is smart. When he's not dysregulated, he's very quick to see and apologize for his mistakes or shortcomings. He's also talked a lot about his mental health, wondering if the therapists he's seen have missed something, why medications don't work for his anxiety and depression, etc.

There have been times (like when he's actively wondering and talking about it) that I've considered finding some way to tell him what I suspect.

Yet, I haven't actually done it. Part of that is advice I've gotten here: that the revelation pretty much never goes over well. Part is fear that I'd botch the delivery (which is something I tend to do).

Your approach sounds, in some ways, like a good one, but I'd be concerned that your W would see through it. I know my H would. Instead of insight, I'd probably get a "Wait a minute. Why are you asking me this? What are you trying to say?" It probably wouldn't go anywhere pretty after that.

But you know your W. Do you think she'd see through it?

[Witz_End]

I'm definitely watching this thread.  It's my major dilemma too.  A difference between yours and mine is mine is wary/distrustful of counselors at best, whereas I would assume yours isn't since she has pursued degrees in psychology.

The first thought that came to my mind about that, though, is that an intelligent mind versed in the subject could actually work against.  She is the one schooled in it and knowledgable about it, which could present two problems:

1.  Defensive "who are YOU to school me in this like you know more about the subject than I do?  I've got the degree, thank you very much."  This could be feeling invalidated as far as her knowledge, but also a move to distract and use your stepping onto her academic turf to "school her" as the new topic.

2.  Even if not defensive, her knowledge may be brought to bear, even stretching logic, to refute.  Intelligent borderline minds can be extremely adept, especially to protect themselves from facing things they do not want to see.  Her knowledge gives her data to manipulate toward that.

In essence, you will be stepping onto her academic turf.  I'd be cautious about approach because, especially if she is proud of her academic progress and learning, there is a chance of invalidating that if she does not readily agree.  Readily agreeing may be even more difficult for her because there may be a part of her that would feel the self-attack of "I have a degree in this and I didn't see it, therefore I am an idiot, worthless, and if I can't see it right under my nose, how can I work in the field.  I can't.  All that schooling was a waste.  I might as well give up."  So, even getting her to see it may have the unintended cost of her turning on herself, as pwBPD can and do do internally.

My fear would be that, as much as it may seem promising, her experience in the field may work against you.  I don't, in any way, mean to discourage or say it *won't* work, here.  Others with more experience may feel otherwise as well.  I come from a place in this where I'm learning to anticipate potential pitfalls while walking eggshells, so just offering considerations to help you think things through or be prepared for possibilities.  Sometimes those possibilities don't happen and sometimes pwBPD can pleasantly surprise us with conversations that go much better than anticipated.

Part of the struggle is shedding the expectation for rationality when emotions or personal stake come in.  I'm in the similar boat where I know my wife is smart enough to see, if I were to lay out what I've seen and how it fits, but I also know it's a major gamble.  Then again, finding a way to put her in front of a therapist is equally a gamble, in some ways.

[MidLifCrysis1]

I'm so glad I asked! Wow, you guys nailed stuff right out of the gate.
Here's the replies:

 @Wicker:

showing concern for her emotional wellbeing be enough to get her to start to connect the dots?

I have tried this and unfortunately it is WAY too easy for her to rationalize away her own state (I'm working and doing a MSW and Momming and SO tired and...) so while it might seem a good approach, no dice there.

 @Oz: She would undoubtedly see through it. I was banking on her ability to take the conversational ride with me anyway    Herein is the risk...but sometimes she can do this. Also, I would position it as non-accusatory or labeling as possible - not to hide the ultimate message, but to approach it openly, but gingerly, gently, and caringly - a let's solve our struggles together position.

 @Witz_End: You are completely correct on all points. Her education, intelligence, and personal strength - while desirable gifts - have worked fantastically against her/us. It totally fuels her ability to dodge the truth, dodge getting help, and somehow figuring out how to make things all my fault. Sometimes I wish she would just break down already, but she lives life the way Rocky Balboa boxes. I can only hold on to the hope that ultimately she will win similarly - beaten and bloody, but victorious. And it sure is a big gamble. It's like having to dance with the Devil  for a chance to get out of Hell.

I am now very eager to hear what any/everyone else has to contribute on this.
Thank you all.

 - MLC

[Masang M]

Hi MLC
I’m sorry to hear about your struggles. I too have an intelligent H he is studying for his MBA. I am studying psychology and  criminal justice when I first came across BPD only a few traits fit my H because he is a quiet or internal BPD. One day I came across an article on quiet bpd that fit my H to a T. We had been arguing again, I was mad and frustrated but somehow I calmingly  asked him to look up quiet BPD then left him alone. Later I went back to him and asked him what he thought, he fortunately recognize himself in the articles he read. He was tired of living the way he was so for him the answers were a blessing in disguise. I know most conversations don’t go well, a very simple approach worked for me. Good Luck it’s hard to navigate, story strong and take care of yourself. 

[MidLifCrysis1]

Bringing this back to the top of the charts, as I am hoping it just got pushed back behind everyone's urgent concerns.

I was really hoping more folks had contributions on this...

[gadget]

Hi MLC,

I'm fairly new here.  But I know I could never tell my wife "Hey I think you are BPD".  So I'm trying to drop hints to our therapist (we both see the same lady separately) and see if she picks up on it.  If not, I will mention that I read Stop Walking on Eggshells and see much of my wife in that book.  I don't want to diagnose my wife, nor help the therapist diagnose her.  I just want the best, focused, and correct mental help for her so she gets better and maybe comes back home to me and our family one day.  If she doesn't come back, I still want her to be in a better mental state.

Gadget

[isilme]

Part of the struggle is shedding the expectation for rationality when emotions or personal stake come in.

This is the biggest thing to take away.

Even trying a compassionate approach, you are trying to appeal to logic with a person whose emotional disorder protects them as much as possible from blame and shame. 

Think about it - you have a condition where blame or shame is toxic and must be avoided.  You will project, re-write history, outright lie, deny deny deny, provoke others to prove victimhood, all to preserve the idea you are blameless and therefore cannot be abandoned, and should do all abandoning to beat others to it.  You don't want to understand why others can't read your mind and do exactly what your shifting emotions feel you need at this time.  You just know if they don't do it, thy don't care, they hate you and they deserve to be told off for being such bad partners, for not caring, for trying to hurt you.  You feel bad about the drama around you and can't understand why people in your life just can't be better and not cause you to be mad and have to yell at them.

Someone tells you that you are part of the blame for the drama.  Run program:  Short circuit, does not compute.  Impossible.  I can't be the blame, it someone else.  I cannot process shame it must be someone else.  Project, deny deny deny.  Protect self from toxic shame, HUSBAND is problem, husband has BPD, husband hates me.  Husband must hurt as I hurt, he must feel the same pain I feel.  I will hurt him, he will know what it is like inside me, he will be perfect if he only tries.

Sorry for the creative writing there, but that is how I think their minds kinda work.  I veto telling her she ahs BPD in any fashion whatsoever.  I say if she is willing for therapy under any other guise, go for it, see if the therapist picks up on it.  If you share a therapist, try to go in first.  Otherwise, you will be walking into space where you have just been (likely) vilified and projected as a villain for the previous session.

I recommend seeing if she believes she has issues with anxiety.  Stress.  Depression.  See if working on say, depression, is an into seeing a therapist.  It's less stigmatic, it's a thing you get, not a core central processing center for your brain that requires deep insight and personal honesty to re-wire.  DBT won't work with an unwilling subject in denial.  No therapy does.