Part 5 step parenting uBPD SD22 with suicidal ideation

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

This is a continuation of Part 4 here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338596.0;all

worriedStepmom, it could be all 3. I feel too far from the source to know what's going on, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a mixture of all 3 plus something else.

H is home tonight and my plans changed so I'm home too. I'll see if it feels right to say something. He probably won't check email until Sunday night anyway.

I feel deep down he resents me for bringing this stuff up

[livednlearned]

This is a continuation of Part 4 here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=338596.0;all

worriedStepmom, it could be all 3. I feel too far from the source to know what's going on, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's a mixture of all 3 plus something else.

H is home tonight and my plans changed so I'm home too. I'll see if it feels right to say something. He probably won't check email until Sunday night anyway.

I feel deep down he resents me for bringing this stuff up

[formflier]

I feel deep down he resents me for bringing this stuff up

Please trust him to manage his feelings of resentment or anything else.

I would be sure it's not his favorite topic...but I would be shocked if "resent" is really in the mix.

Oh..back to the schedule.  You don't need an answer ASAP...send the email and focus on good together time.  If it happens to come up in conversation..."oh..hey I emailed..but now seems good to mention..."

Don't make sorting out these details a bigger thing than it is...it's an email.  He'll get to it when he gets to it.

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

Resentful or not, this needs to keep moving forward.

SD22 is about to embark on two significant life changes -- a demanding job and a live-in relationship.

It would be pretty naive to expect SD22 to navigate her new life without some of the concerning behaviors she has shown in the past year. And it doesn't sound as if her BF is well-equipped to deal with it.

What happens the first time SD22 talks about suicide to BF, and he can't handle it, and there's no plan?

[worriedStepmom]

I feel deep down he resents me for bringing this stuff up

I'm pretty sure my husband resents the situation and I just bear the brunt of it because I won't let him hide from it.  Plus he feels guilty.  I don't *think* he actually resents me.

It helped us to have some dedicated couple time (like y'all did) and for me to make it very personal.  He responds best when I compare what SD is going through to my childhood and cry (because it is hard to talk about).  Your H responded best when you were very emotional about what you want for SD22.

Because if it is emotional for us, then that means it isn't about them. 

[livednlearned]

Please trust him to manage his feelings of resentment or anything else.

Good advice.

Resentful or not, this needs to keep moving forward.

Pretty sure you guys talk to my T. 

I don't *think* he actually resents me.

Maybe resenting me isn't totally accurate, but H definitely resents me bringing it up. Or doesn't want me to bring it up.

Last night we talked for 45 min about S18, with H weaving in and out about fairly benign SD22 issues. Then we sat down and I brought up T's email and shwoop the gate closed.

I asked him if he sent everything in the email, and he said yes, but I can't shake the sense that there was some quick footwork in how he responded. He said, "Yes, the suicide, the eval." He didn't say BPD.

Then I talked about the class this fall, saying that I think T kind of dropped the ball. He immediately went to, "SD22 is doing great. She didn't mention BF moving in once today. I did get some texts that I think are about being lonely and maybe a bit bored..."

Everyone ends up in the weeds with SD22. It's about micro moods, micro moments, low to the ground stuff.

Altho H did hold up his arms to say, "Here's the range of healthy and SD22 is here. This past year she moved here, which is a lot for SD22. T said positive things about her and I see those same improvements. SD22 will probably never be here (far side of super healthy) but I feel she can get herself to this part (medium range)."

This tells me two things. One, H interprets me as seeing only deficits in SD22. Not sure if that's his perception or I'm actually doing that. Two, he believes SD22 can take care of herself on her own. I'm not sure he thinks SD22 needs more than she already has. Who am I to argue? He thinks having a psychiatrist and two Ts is a sign she's already taking care of herself.

He also made a comment about her texting. (He has to have his phone on at work so this is not as simple as him muting text alerts.) H says he's going to tell her to send one long text instead of 10 short ones, that her texts going ding ding ding ding ding ding in a string makes it seem like it's urgent, an emergency. And he deals with emergencies all day long, and it would be better to have one ding.

I said, "SD22 will interpret that to mean my dad told me not to text him."

H: "I think she's getting this feedback from SD25, from SS20, from her mom, her grandma, BF, and T is confirming that yes, it's an area for improvement because people feel ________."

Meaning, (I think) SD22 is working on this stuff, and she's making progress."

I can see how me focusing on the eval and SI safety plan comes across as, "You're not doing enough. SD22 is not doing enough."

Maybe it's all in how it's communicated, like worriedStepmom said.

[formflier]

Follow up the conversation with the email request...

Here is my take...he needs time to process...he needs time to think on his feet.  I think email is better forum for a relatively simple request.

This is about SI...not a place for assumptions and interpretations. 

Best,

FF

[formflier]

Direct yes or no answer please.

Do you believe SD22 is doing enough?

I'll go first.  I don't.

I don't see that he's asked it, but since it's a reasonable potential question...think it through and be ready.

Best,

FF

[GaGrl]

If your H makes a request about the overtexting, what SD22 then shows she can do in response might be a gauge for "is she doing enough."

If that many other family members have made the request, she has probably blown up enough phones that H may be the last to draw a boundary here -- he is taking the brunt of it.

It must be incredibly painful for SD22 that she can't self-soothe longer than a few minutes between texts.

[livednlearned]

he needs time to process...he needs time to think on his feet.  I think email is better forum for a relatively simple request.

Probably. He's a pretty rational guy, deals with crises all day long. I think he must feel out of his depth when it's a crisis plus big emotion. He's been trained to dial things way down, so in some ways, he's doing what he's always done.

For me observing SD22, my emotions aren't triggered in the same way. I don't see H acting rationally, I see him trying to have rational thought. His emotions leak out all over the place, and he wants to ignore them, wants me to ignore them -- his instinct is that emotions will interfere with rational thought, is my guess. And if emotions come out, there will be chaos. We both have BPD family history and BPD ex spouse so I understand the knee jerk fear of big emotion, with the exception that I've worked through a lot more of this in therapy than he has. Plus, I think I got a hall pass with lots of female relationships to hold me over between therapy  

And you guys  

If that many other family members have made the request, she has probably blown up enough phones that H may be the last to draw a boundary here -- he is taking the brunt of it.

That is almost exactly what SD25 said. That everyone else has set a boundary (not exactly skillfully) and H is the last one to draw a line. Meanwhile, SD22 has discovered her aunt's maternal instincts and protectiveness (she has 4 grown adult kids). I felt the same way, SD22 elicits those feelings in me, too.

So SD22 doing well is, in my view, a sign that she has tapped a new source of bottomless reassurance, and the combination of getting a job and all that goes with it. She's too busy to be needy, a temporary thing.

It must be incredibly painful for SD22 that she can't self-soothe longer than a few minutes between texts.

I couldn't agree more. Sometimes, I feel like people have set the bar so low for her, that as long as she is being functional, then that's good enough. Without caring whether she feels her life is worth living.

Given the temperature reading from these last few days, I'm going to lay lie for a while and let him come to me.

You're probably right that an email is best at the moment. I also feel like you're right that he needs to process. This class starts in 3 weeks and I know it will be intense for us to go through it together, hopefully in a good way.

[formflier]

Probably. He's a pretty rational guy, deals with crises all day long. I think he must feel out of his depth when it's a crisis plus big emotion. He's been trained to dial things way down, so in some ways, he's doing what he's always done.
 

OK..I'm fascinated and curious to know what he does.  Sounds very much like what we did/how we processed things in Naval Aviation.

I'm very much aware that my decision making in regards to my family members is quite different than how I make decisions otherwise, especially "high stakes" decisions.

I often make calls to my buds and they often call me "Hey...give me some back up on this.."

LnL

Here is something to think about. 

If your hubby a "process" guy or something else.  I'm very much a "process" guy. 

Frankly..that's what is so troubling about the T's response.   I see no "process" that can be followed or evaluated to handle SI.  What's the framework?

And...framework doesn't always matter.  The manner of texting is (in the big picture)...not a big deal.  The manner of handling SI certainly is a big deal.

So...circling around to your communications process as it relates to your hubby's need for emotional release (or emotional space).  You have a request...put it out there in email, perhaps "sandwich" in the email with appreciation/validation...and clarity of your need so you can put T response in perspective.

Simple..you want to read both sets.

Also...keep things straight in your mind...and you likely need to clarify (set a boundary).

He is emotionally flooded and likely picks up criticism/concern/suspicion of T and "personalizes" that as criticism of him (parenting) and/or SD22.

I'm wondering now (love writing these things while thinking out-loud) if you should explicitly say this in your email. 

My P and I were talking about this just yesterday. 

Best,

FF

[wendydarling]

Perhaps H did remove reference to BPD in the family in the email, he said he'd use his own words. The positives are with your support H sent an email to the T and the SI course is in place, only 3 weeks away.   and yes it'll be intense, it'll also be positively life changing for your  family. For your H, when we know better, we do better   A steep learning curve.

LnL along with you and the guys here I've been scratching my head about the T and their response. T is handing responsibility back to H, get on with it, do you think H sees that?

I'm minded to think there must be a safety plan in place, I'm mean how can't there be a safety plan for someone with SI? This is basic, T is DBT trained. I'd also expect they are feeding her DBT skills.  If H sends a thank you follow up response …... as a parent having a child suffering SI I'd send back a positive response to keep the conversation open, going...
~ Accountability: make a statement (rather than a Q they're at liberty to not answer) so T understands H's expectation with SD22's chronic SI a plan is in place while also acknowledging H, SD25 are not part of the plan as neither have been consulted. You mention T says she's called helplines... part of a plan? I wonder if by SD22 texting SD25, SD25 is in her plan, though SD22 hasn't the courage to let her know she has a safety plan. All speculation on my part.
~Share the upcoming SI course with T, may help them consider their own approach and that H is ahead of where they may believe him to be. H is proactive, transparent, setting the bar, back to T.

It's confusing why the T is offering to share DBT groups with H. Is T proposing (without writing it) H suggest DBT to SD22? Perhaps T has suggested DBT for SI and SD22 declined and T believes as H is seeking help on SI, H is in a position to suggest DBT, encourage his DD?

Altho H did hold up his arms to say, "Here's the range of healthy and SD22 is here. This past year she moved here, which is a lot for SD22. T said positive things about her and I see those same improvements. SD22 will probably never be here (far side of super healthy) but I feel she can get herself to this part (medium range)."

What are the positive things T said and the same improvements H sees LnL? I also hold onto the signs of improvements big time, however small they are, it is a sign of hope and it's confusing when they are mixed in with SI, chronically in SD22's case. My DD's recovery to managing BPD, has been a sliding doors experience for me, you know that one step forward, two back, two forward, two forward, two back.

To be honest, I'm not feeling super optimistic about all this. I read the parenting a child with BPD board and even when two committed parents try to get a minor child treatment, there are so many cracks for things to fall through.

The 'puzzle' you spoke of, is coming into place though not how you expect it to, the path is not linear. You are doing great LnL you are moving forward thoughtfully and sensitively and you and H are learning together.  

Breathe, feel the moment.

WDx

[formflier]

LnL along with you and the guys here I've been scratching my head about the T and their response. T is handing responsibility back to H, get on with it, do you think H sees that?
 

This is possible although I would think it really odd if a T meant this in the context of a SI plan...that the T wasn't explicit about it.

I've been in this "world" (dealing with suicidal people) in the military and civilian side and the "vagueness" the T allowing is alarming.

T training 101 and "risk management" (lawyer/liability stuff) is to advise people to err of the side of safety...calling 911, taking them to emergency room etc etc.

Otherwise, if there is a successful suicide and that note came out and went to court.  A family could say...We went to the DBT class and our loved one still did a suicide.  A couple expert witnesses come up and are asked if DBT class is appropriate for someone that is "chronically suicidal"  

Of course they say no.

The T, liability/malpractice insurance and the owner of the T's practice get hammered in court and in the court of public opinion.

Now...if it turns out the "defense" can produce an email asking the T about things but not really asking for a SI plan...now things look completely different.

My desire for LnL to read the entire email has little to do with whether or not BPD is mentioned (yes I am interested)...I'm much more interested in what was said/asked about help with a SI plan or is there an SI plan...or was suicide even mentioned..or clearly mentioned.

Was it explicit or inferred.  

There is no way to know unless the email is actually read.

It's entirely possible that the T's response is a "proper" response to the actual content of what showed up in her email inbox.

Generally speaking I'm a fan of advice to keep the conversation going...

However, if it turns out that LnL hubby asked explicitly for help with an SI plan for a "chronically suicidal" child (yes even adult child)...I begin to question whether this T has a helpful role to play. (being polite here)

Every profession has idiots.  

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

If your hubby a "process" guy

Meaning? If it's what I think you mean, then he's usually a process guy. Except with this, for reasons I can only guess at.

The manner of texting is (in the big picture)...not a big deal.  The manner of handling SI certainly is a big deal.

I see them as related. SD22 cannot abide being alone so she texts. A lot. To everyone she knows. And everyone she texts becomes exasperated by it. It's excessive. If the texts were expressed as physical need, she would be following multiple people around inappropriately, no matter where they are, no matter what they are doing, incapable of leaving them alone even when they ask. Then fabricating emotional crises to keep them focused on her.

If this were my daughter, I would want to know: is there a way for her to gauge her wellness based on the degree of texting she is doing? Can family members use texting to gauge how well or not well she is doing? Or something along those lines.

I know what you mean that texting is not as big of a deal (annoyance) to others as the subject of SI (tragedy). It's this kind of connect-the-dots on small deal items that I wish were happening, tho. Lots of small picture stuff adds up to big picture with quiet BPD.

I've been scratching my head about the T and their response. T is handing responsibility back to H, get on with it, do you think H sees that?

That's a good question. I'm not clear on what he thought about T's response, at least in terms of her expectation of him.

how can't there be a safety plan for someone with SI?

I know! When the pdoc called H last year to say, "SD22 is chronically suicidal, she gave permission for me to call you" why didn't anyone say, "Let's talk about a safety plan."

And why is H feeling I'm pushing too hard for a safety plan? I feel like I must be missing something. I am not handling it properly or something?

From my understanding of that incident, a roommate or friend said to SD22, "You have to call your shrink." And SD22 did. Then the pdoc asked about contacting family members and SD22 said only contact my dad. He drove up there and by then she said she was fine.

So this might be why H feels there is a plan in place? Because SD22 did the right thing by calling her shrink and then allowed the doctor to talk to H? Who drove up to check on her ... ?

A few months ago she was interviewing for a job and shared with SD25 that she thought people were watching her in her hotel room. She closed the blinds so they couldn't see her. SD25 shared this with H, and they discussed SD22's mental health. H talked directly to SD22, "Does this feel like what happened when you were 16?" Meaning, psychosis. SD22 said no. To my knowledge, that was the end of that. They allow SD22 to know whether she is experiencing psychosis or not, but from my understanding, people don't always know when it's happening.

I guess I'm saying all this because in this family, H is the crisis manager. He handles things. He gauges whether something is an emergency or not, and he doesn't have a lot of faith in hospitals to handle what SD22 is experiencing (he works in ER).

He does have a lot of expertise with the health system. He is less experienced with the emotions when it's your family member. And with SD22, someone has to be experienced with both. Where does SD22 go for support if H is not available? Is that the way to phrase it?

as a parent having a child suffering SI I'd send back a positive response to keep the conversation open, going...

That's good advice, thank you WD.  

~ Accountability: make a statement (rather than a Q they're at liberty to not answer) so T understands H's expectation with SD22's chronic SI a plan is in place while also acknowledging H, SD25 are not part of the plan as neither have been consulted. You mention T says she's called helplines... part of a plan? I wonder if by SD22 texting SD25, SD25 is in her plan, though SD22 hasn't the courage to let her know she has a safety plan. All speculation on my part.
~Share the upcoming SI course with T, may help them consider their own approach and that H is ahead of where they may believe him to be. H is proactive, transparent, setting the bar, back to T.

This is super helpful.  

It's confusing why the T is offering to share DBT groups with H.

My guess is that T (who is in our town) is offering to help find DBT courses up in SD22's new town.

I also suspect that T is punting a bit because email is not confidential -- honestly, she should've responded, Let's arrange a time to talk. (in my opinion...). Providers should not be discussing anything in email in our country given how litigious the US is  

What are the positive things T said and the same improvements H sees?

SD22 works hard on the skills T is helping her develop. She said this repeatedly, "SD22 works really, really hard applying skills." I get the sense a lot of these skills are for anxiety and close relationships. I agree that SD22 does work hard. FF said this a while back that SD22's job will probably offer her professional development opportunities for others that help herself, and I see that already in her work with T. She applies what she's learning about anxiety to her participants, as she calls them.

I think I can see some of those skills in action when SD22 becomes furious with H (who bless his heart can be somewhat oblivious  ). SD22 is quiet BPD, so she's more likely to go upstairs and internalize. A bit of door slamming, and some throwing seems to happen in a way that she tries to pass off as oops or didn't mean that. Then she comes back down and says to H, "I'm mad because ..." and they kind of work it out.  

She also reaches out to the hotline regularly, uses an online chat room for SI, takes her medications consistently. These are all positives, big strengths.

The 'puzzle' you spoke of, is coming into place though not how you expect it to, the path is not linear.

The path is definitely not linear, WD. It's good to be reminded  

[livednlearned]

Every profession has idiots.  

 

made my day, FF

[worriedStepmom]

I love that list of SD's strengths.

It shows that SD WANTS to get better and is not only willing but able to do a lot of hard work to get there.  That is really huge. 

Your list also shows that you are paying close attention to SD, and that you are very able to see the good and the bad.

SD is doing a lot of work.  My D13 often quotes her band teacher - "It's not about how much you practice.  It's about the time you spend practicing the right things".  The plan, then, needs to be not only what to do in a time of crisis, but what other skills does SD need?

H and I wrote up a big list of problematic behaviors we see in SD12's mom, both to give to mom's T and to gauge for ourselves how widespread the problem is.  Do you have a similar list for SD22?

[livednlearned]

The plan, then, needs to be not only what to do in a time of crisis, but what other skills does SD need?

H and I wrote up a big list of problematic behaviors we see in SD12's mom, both to give to mom's T and to gauge for ourselves how widespread the problem is.  Do you have a similar list for SD22?

That's a really good idea. Right now, I don't think we're in a place to sit down and write a list of problematic behaviors, though. Where I see, "Let's do this to help SD22," H hears "Again with the SD22 problems, yeesh."

I'm not going to let go SD22's wellness, and I also have to recognize that H has limits. Without his cooperation we go nowhere fast. To have even a minimal amount of influence, I have to be patient and wait for an opening.

And like WD said, be aware that H sent the email, we have a class in September, SD22 has a job, and a new apartment, is taking her medications, has awareness about her texting issues, is seeing Ts and a psychiatrist, calls the prevention hotline, has a supportive dad, sister, brother, grandma, aunt, uncle.

This is a family who pushes things down super deep and I am walking around with shovels and a flashlight   Let's get this stuff up on the surface, aired out, and well lit. So SD22's BPD traits are in line with stuffing and that's how the family wants it. My T said, "being chronically suicidal is a tragedy." I feel like: we have all these strengths, let's use them. Let's do step one two three and bring this suffering into the light, gently and safely.

She's a lovely person, so talented and caring. We could be powerful for her if we worked together.

[formflier]

  Where I see, "Let's do this to help SD22," H hears "Again with the SD22 problems, yeesh."
 

Perhaps he does.

When people have "problems" hearing things that aren't being said..it's usually best to be more succinct...and explicit.

I'm thinking "written SI plan" is the new verbiage to start using.  Perhaps "written and  signed"

Best,

FF

[wendydarling]

She's a lovely person, so talented and caring.

  just like her smom, she's so lucky to have you rooting for her  

If this were my daughter, I would want to know: is there a way for her to gauge her wellness based on the degree of texting she is doing? Can family members use texting to gauge how well or not well she is doing? Or something along those lines.

Wow, that's a question, have you asked your T? My DD has never been a texter.  
It's complex, isn't it. I would expect SD22 is very aware of her wellness by how much she texts, needs support. I guess a reduction in texts may be received in many ways; they are in dire straights, very busy, learning, practicing distress tolerance and complimentary skills. Not easy.

We could be powerful for her if we worked together.

You are on the road LnL I know it's frustrating. It'll be interesting to hear what H takes away from the SI course. Radical acceptance comes to mind.

That T is suggesting DBT to H, and DBT trained makes me wonder if they are introducing DBT skills with SD22 and if not why? How's it going LNL, did anything come from the T email? I'm guessing it's all change with SD22's new job, live in BF.

WDx

[livednlearned]

WD, I so appreciate you walking with me on this  

All of you, thank you.

I'm going to get down in the weeds on this one.

Friday night H and I went out. Since coming back from vacation he has felt a bit down, wanting to see if we can try to recreate relaxation while here at home. I suggested we have a beer at this great place down the road from us, just sit and talk and laugh and relax. Neighbors go there, and for me it's a treat to drink socially. I couldn't do that with my ex who drank to excess so it feels new.

We order our beer, sit down, and H says (annoyed), Hang on a sec, SD22 is blowing up my phone. He texts her back.

This is an issue for us, it can feel like I'm on a date with SD22 and H   . Usually I say, "If you feel you can go out without responding to SD22, then let's go. Otherwise, we can try another night." I didn't do that this time. I thought because he was trying to get away from stress, that meant away from SD22 and texts.

I say, "You could always just ... not respond." He says, "I know." No tension, just frustration with SD22.

H: Now that she has her job, it's no longer the stress of getting a job, it's the stress of starting a job. Next, it will be the stress of the job."

Me: Let's have a nice night out, just the two of us. You can text her when we're home.

H: I think I was able to wind her down.

I was thinking, if it continues, I'll wander over and join neighbors nearby. But it dies down, we have a really good time, neighbors come over and H is happy, relaxed, talkative.

Then, while friends are talking to us, he gets a text from SD22, checks it and pretty much that's it for H all night. Neighbors eventually wander away and it's me and H. I ask him if he wants to stay and he says, "I can't talk. This is important. SD22 is saying I want her in a mental institution."

 

Date night over.

We get home, H had offered to make dinner. Halfway through making dinner he gets a call from SD22, turns off the stove, and goes outside to talk. Dinner never gets made. They talk for 45 minutes.

He comes back inside and says, "We had a really good talk. She's much more mature on the phone than in text. I suggested when she's emotional she doesn't text and learn how to walk away and wait before typing."

This maybe wasn't the right way to respond, but having had so many emotionally reactive men in my life, I have learned that there is a time to engage, and a time to let go. I let go. I love this man dearly, more than any man I've ever loved. I would do anything for him. But he is running headfirst into a crisis with this child.

Yesterday, after things cooled, I asked to see the text exchange.

Wow. It is SD22 working herself into a frenzy about whether she needs to be admitted to a mental hospital, but doesn't want to go because her friend was admitted and they drugged her and she went blind and deaf in there and they pretty much held her captive and took away all her human rights.   yikes, SD22. Is any of that real?

That her T (here) validates that transitions like this are hard, anyone would be feeling stressed, her feelings are valid. I also hear SD22 asking for validation that she needs something more than what she's getting, that her feelings might be excessive. Then blaming H for trying to put her in a psyche ward, which, by the way, is the complete opposite of reality. It's a bizarre series of 30 or so texts, partly kicking up a fight with H and partly trying to figure out who she should be listening to. Then H: "I'm so confused right now."

Some more back and forth fro SD22, winding up to get meaner. Then H: "I'm under a lot of stress right now and don't feel I deserve to be treated this way."

Then 30 more texts of SD22 apologizing, saying he misread what she was saying.

Honestly, this whole thing -- not just her texts but also his behavior -- confirms for me that this family is a crisis waiting to happen.

I looked up DBT programs near SD22 and found one, and sent the link to H.

This class for H and I cannot come fast enough.

[worriedStepmom]

It sounds just like my SD's mom - trying to get someone else to take responsibility for what they think they ought to do.  SD12's mom wanted us to tell her she couldn't see SD.

Your SD22 wanted your H to tell her it's okay to go get checked out because she knows there is something wrong with her.  He wouldn't do it, and she escalated, but she isn't ready to do something different (like checking into a hospital) yet.

Has SD started looking for a therapist in her new town yet?  That might be a good option to push gently on right now.  That could solve the problem of the therapist here who may not get it.

[livednlearned]

It sounds just like my SD's mom - trying to get someone else to take responsibility for what they think they ought to do.  SD12's mom wanted us to tell her she couldn't see SD.

And if I remember correctly, SD12's mom bounced around about why she was in inpatient treatment? I feel like SD22 is doing a version of that, she's interpreting what others are saying in a very black/white way, missing the nuance. Yes, it's perfectly normal to feel stress during a big transition, and yes, her emotions and anxiety are excessive. She hears both and feels confused about what is true, when both are true.

Whereas with H, I think he believes there is either holding it together (where he must be available 24/7) or ending up in the ER. The link I sent him was to a center that looks really good, and even allows people to select different levels of care required based on how much they're struggling to function in life. Level one is the most acute support. Level two is where I see SD22 fitting in.

Your SD22 wanted your H to tell her it's okay to go get checked out because she knows there is something wrong with her.  He wouldn't do it, and she escalated, but she isn't ready to do something different (like checking into a hospital) yet.

That's exactly what it read like to me. I do think that a real DBT program is the middle path for her, and for H. The DBT center I looked at measures their success by how many of their patients manage to live a life that doesn't require regular inpatient stays or ER visits. 

Has SD started looking for a therapist in her new town yet?  That might be a good option to push gently on right now. 

I'm done with being gentle 

I think the next move is to insist H write an email to the T here with the DBT link, and to ask for her support -- "Please suggest to SD22 that this is a program that will meet her needs, that she's a smart woman for getting ahead of this." And have him allow me to see the email. Then talk to SD25 about this DBT program and see if SD22 can get a unified message to do something proactive, intensive, skills-oriented, located nearby, and better than what she's getting, all from people the people she listens to.

Right now I think she believes that it's either free-falling into a black hole of extreme emotions or a psyche ward.

[formflier]

OK..boundaries and roles.

It's good that the class is coming because that will give you guys stuff to talk about and act on.

In a way, I think it's good that these issues are in text, because that is much more concrete...less open to interpretation.

I often give texts and emails to my P and discuss how I responded and why...and then discuss possibilities of different responses...and why those might or might not have been better or worse choices.   

A lot of this is reading tea leaves...but it serves to help understand the dynamic.

Ugg...the "dynamic" between your H and daughter is really icky.  Especially because the roles are essentially reversed. 

Who is "in charge" (the leader) in the relationship? 

These things are building blocks.  LnL you are good with building blocks and seeing how things relate...understanding when to push and when to back off.

That being said, is there any doubt in your mind that you and H would be able to benefit to have a T you can lay things out there like these texts and get professional guidance? 

I say this because your role in this is to be a wife...not a therapist.  I'm 100% for you asking to see the texts and providing (even unsolicited) guidance.  It would be one thing if this was "one time" advice..or short term.

Do you have any doubt this is going to go on for a while?

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

is there any doubt in your mind that you and H would be able to benefit to have a T you can lay things out there like these texts and get professional guidance?

I really wish we had a good counselor. I know from past experience that it's important to find a good T. I'm trying to find someone. My T had a recommendation (she is careful about who she recommends) but that person is not taking new clients.

your role in this is to be a wife...not a therapist.  I'm 100% for you asking to see the texts and providing (even unsolicited) guidance.  It would be one thing if this was "one time" advice..or short term.

I feel like I'm on the bow of the ship, seeing the iceberg. I'm not the captain or a sailor or engineer, but I feel confident I am seeing an iceberg 

I'm trying to get someone to listen. Altho deep down I still feel like I'm at the limit of my influence.

Do you have any doubt this is going to go on for a while?

Which part?

[formflier]

Which part?

.

Any/all of it.

Here is the thing.  We both know...we know..that a reasonable T is going to set communication limits.

"Hey..SD22..I believe in you...you are doing great.  I'll talk to you on Sunday afternoon (this is like on Friday).  Then...let her do what she will do."
.  
I like the iceberg analogy (navy guy).  Let's back up a bit.  Are you going to be better off as a quartermaster (see video) or a "lookout" (not a rating..but a watchstanding job that you describe).

https://youtu.be/QR6ztl5uJmQ

Right now you guys don't have a  quartermaster.  Here's how that would work.  Captain walks in and says I want to go to xyz port.  Aye sir/ma'am says the quartermaster, who would break out the charts and plot a couple of options.  

We could go over here.  That would give us a channel x wide and Y deep.  A really bad area of shoal water would be 2 miles away.  

or

We could go over here.  A much narrower channel that is just as deep, but no dangerous shoals.  (perhaps this takes a bit longer)

The captain decides and then the QM verifies and updates the bridge team on how they are doing "staying on course".

Right now...SD22 is in charge..has no chart and very likely has an incompetent T (the one that suggested a course for an SI plan).

Hmm...hopefully the analogy works.

A good T would be like a QM.  One that can describe the possible courses...and then advise you how you are doing on the journey you pick.

Best,

FF

[livednlearned]

We both know...we know..that a reasonable T is going to set communication limits.

That's why my T (individual T) suggested a safety plan for SD22. Because without it, H cannot set limits because the escalation will be toward SI. That's her guess, and I suspect she's right.

We are considering moving and given what I saw Friday night in those text messages, there is no way we can move away without there being some kind of test, whether conscious or not.

"Hey..SD22..I believe in you...you are doing great.  I'll talk to you on Sunday afternoon (this is like on Friday).  Then...let her do what she will do."

I know that. You know that. A therapist will know that.

H is not there.
.  
My tendencies are toward being a QM, and same with H. We're both like that. Except with this! It's so frustrating. I've never felt so stuck, not even in my own trajectory toward divorce from n/BPDx.

Right now...SD22 is in charge..has no chart and very likely has an incompetent T (the one that suggested a course for an SI plan).

That T didn't even suggest a course. She just sent a link to H.

A good T would be like a QM.  One that can describe the possible courses...and then advise you how you are doing on the journey you pick.

Realistically? And I hate to say this. If H did not act after the text thread from Friday night, it is going to take a crisis to get him to change course.

He missed what was actually happening in the thread. He got confused, then defensive, then turned it into "let's be friends."

Instead of, "LnL, read this. What's going on?"

When he let me see the text thread, his comment was, "I'm feeling good -- I want to have a relaxing night. I don't want to talk about it."

So I had to read it and then say nothing.

I haven't given up on seeing an MC. I want to make sure we find someone who H respects, who he can work with.

[worriedStepmom]

Can you bring it up with him now that the relaxing night is over?

My H did not understand why I blew a gasket when he told me about a conversation he had with his ex while she was in the psych ward.  He talked her into taking her parenting time and then promised he'd have SD talk to her on the phone...while ex is in a full-blown crisis, and after she had already upset SD.

I had to draw him a diagram.  Literally.  Because his thinking is not rational (or it is, but only if we are dealing with a rational person).

So I drew him a picture to show him how how all the stakeholders interpret what he says.  Three columns - this is what you mean, and the outcome you expect.  This is what SD gets out of it and what she thinks is going to happen (and I understand because I was her once).  This is what ex hears (mixed messages - you're abusive, but hey, come and get your kid in three days) and how she might react (according to all the books I've read).  This is the GIANT FREAKING SPACE between the result you expect and what's actually going to happen.

He still doesn't truly get it, but at least now he understands that he doesn't get it, and he's willing to accept that I might have more of a clue.  So he's letting me lead.

So maybe if you can bring up the texts with your H again, you can help him see that he and SD22 were talking past each other.  She was asking questions he didn't recognize, and he was trying to soothe problems that she didn't have.  SD22 is doing everything she knows how to do to ask for help (she just doesn't know great ways to do that yet).

[Harri]

This thread reached the post limit and has been locked.  Thread continues here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=339482.msg13072542#msg13072542

Thank you.