suggested reading? Still placing myself in caretaker position

[eastofeast]

Hello, this is my first post on this group. I'm looking for advice on useful reading. I'm actually in the wrong category, but that's because the category that I wanted (relationship definitely over and support needed) has apparently been "archived". So... I don't know, I suppose that this category is the next closest to where I am. The relationship officially ended approximately four months, but it was extremely turbulent for the vast majority of the two and a bit years that we were together, and in fact it had also "ended" several/many times over the course of those years. Each end would normally be followed by a new beginning in which one of us (normally me) would go back after a mad crisis in which possessions were thrown around and someone (again, normally me) was forced to get out of the place.

Now that my own situation has stabilised a bit, I've been thinking over the Christmas break about what the hell happened, and I have come to the conclusion that my ex has a borderline personality (whatever my disorder is, that's for me to discover!) I don't care too much for placing people in pigeonholes, but the remaining shock of what I lived through has forced me to look for understanding, and I suppose that categorisation is helpful for understanding. I don't want to remain angry and confused. And also, I have to be honest - I still do love the woman, despite some pretty awful things that have happened between us. So I would be lying were I not to admit that there's still some idea in my head of being back with her one day, however delusional that sounds to me myself right now, and for sure however much my friends and family would pull out their hair and scream at me for contemplating the idea. Obviously I wouldn't go back under any of the conditions that I lived in for two years. I don't really know her state of mind right now, and anyway you can't ask people to change for you, so that would be up to her to learn to face the reality better. So, whatever... let's just say that this is for me, not her!

All I want right now is to read around the subject, both in order to understand what I've been through, and then of course to accept what it was. I did a bit of preliminary reading on Wikipedia, and the article on there convinced me that my ex's behaviour ticked many (if not all) of the boxes there. Enough to make me think that I was on the right track anyway. So I looked for some deeper reading on Amazon, and would just like some opinions about the following books. Obviously I'm not going to buy all of them. Maximum two. Here they are (in no predetermined order):

1. Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist... (Fjelstad)
2. Stop Walking on Eggshells... (Randy)
3. Talking to a Loved One with BPD (Kreisman)
4. I Hate You - Don't Leave Me (Kreisman)
5. Loving Someone with BPD... (Manning)

Obviously I guess that #1 is for someone who is still on the inside of the relationship and needs to get out. I am out, but still thinking about it all too much to say that I'm not still placing myself in the caretaker position. I've downloaded samples of all of them on Kindle. That's giving me some idea, but of course the intros all look quite similar really - an exposition of what the condition is, and what it does to you and everyone else.

Well, that's all I can think of for now. All thoughts appreciated. Thanks very much!

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[I Am Redeemed]

Hi there! Welcome to the family!

Even though I had separated from my ubpdh (undiagnosed bpd husband), I found Stop Walking on Eggshells and I Hate You, Don't Leave Me to be very informative and really helped me know what I had been dealing with. I still read parts of them sometimes, even though I have been in no contact with my ex for over a year.

If you follow this link, it will take you to the Library section where you can read reviews on most (if not all) of the books you listed:https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?board=33.0

We are glad you are here!

[eastofeast]

Oh wow, great! Thank you so much. I wasn't expecting a reply so soon! And it's really good to be here. I'll definitely be looking at previous posts, if that's possible (I can imagine that there are plenty of security concerns here, so understand if not). Yes, I don't know what is going to happen next. New decade and all that. Of course yesterday was pretty awful. I didn't want to be around a lot of people for Christmas, and inevitably I spent most of the day thinking about her But suddenly I feel so much better, to have found a community. Amaaaaazing  

And that's a lot of reading there, eh! I haven't read the Amazon sample for the "I Hate You" book yet. Will check it out later

[I Am Redeemed]

It is possible to look at previous posts. I am not sure how far the listings on these boards go back, but I perused posts that were from years ago when I first got here. There are also tools and articles listed at the top of every board.

are you still in contact with your ex? Do you plan on detaching and moving forward, or trying to rekindle the relationship at some point?

[eastofeast]

Hi, yes, I've just been looking at a few recent posts Much of it sounds very familiar.

Not really in contact at the moment, no, but channels of communication are open. Of course when it ended it was horrible and full of drama, so she did the usual stuff she does, blocking me on WhatsApp and Facebook, on the regular phone and whatever else. But then in October she unblocked me on WhatsApp to talk about some practical stuff, which led to a little bit of discussion of emotions (but not much, to be honest), and she didn't block me back again after that (which wouldn't necessarily have surprised me). And then a few weeks ago she unblocked me on FB, whatever that means. No friend request from her (and I'm not weak enough to think about sending one at this point, don't worry), but I can see at least a bit of what she's up to. Of course it was easier somehow when she had blocked me on all fronts, as the empty road lay only in front of me, and it was easier to avoid looking back. I don't know why she's unblocked me on FB. Whether she was missing me a bit, whether she was simply curious, whether she was hoping to re-establish some manipulation. Maybe a bit of all those things - I couldn't tell you!

The main point is that there's no logistical need for me to contact her. Everything is completely separated out, albeit that it was a pretty messy separation, and we are now leading separate lives, but of course there are many lingering thoughts. I don't feel in any position to move on completely at this point. I just buried my head in work for a bit, and I think that that was useful up to a certain point. I also went on Tinder for a while, but honestly it was mainly for self-respect, and I was just like a tourist - couldn't take it very seriously Well, some (or even most) of what you see on Tinder is pretty absurd in any case! So no dates were forthcoming I've just been feeling too damaged by it all to do much more than that, and need plenty more time to get over everything. I'm going to take a creative writing course in the New Year. I've had enough therapy/counselling with strangers - I want to let it out for myself!

I don't have any idea what she's been doing, whether she's been out looking for guys to fill the void, or whether she's trying to work herself out. She was smoking a lot of weed before we finished, so she might have been carrying on like that. She's got one friend who is a pretty bad influence in that department. I suppose that it might help me a bit to know the answer to all of those things, but I'm pretty afraid (or let's say "loathe") to approach.

[eastofeast]

I'll just add one thing. I'm not sure if I'm being naive, but I genuinely think that she's maybe a bit more ready to be open about this stuff than I imagine many of the cases discussed on here would be. More than once I've had her crying in my arms and basically admitting to this condition, without giving it the 21st century terminlogy that we're using here. And I suppose that that is why there's a part of me that hasn't given up on her Of course she would revert back to hiding behind the brittle facade within a couple of days of such confessions and life would become impossible again, but it's that memory which has left me with something that I can't easily let go of.

OK, now I'm in the wee small hours on this side of the Atlantic, so I guess I'll sign off for now. Thank you again so much for replying so fast  

[I Am Redeemed]

I understand. I think it's good that you don't seek her out on social media. It does make healing easier.

Good for you for taking a creative writing course! That's something I always wanted to do, but never have, except for writer's club in high school. That was a long time ago, though.

If you feel too damaged to get back in the dating scene yet, then take some time and work through some of this stuff. Most of us here have found it helpful to explore why we got into these types of relationships in the first place, and why we found it so hard to let go.

Reading others' posts here will help you to see that you are far from alone. This place has been an absolute life saver for me, even though my r/s has ended. As for your ex getting help, that would be a wonderful thing for her should she decide to pursue it, but you need to know that it is not and never was your responsibility. It is hard when we see someone who is suffering so much, and they tell us they know something is wrong and they need it to change. We may feel like we need to help them get help, but the only thing any of us can do is support someone as best we can if they make an effort to go through therapy. We can't facilitate it for them. It has to be something the other person wants and seeks out on their own.

[eastofeast]

Aaaaaah, you're too fast with your replies! I hadn't had time to switch the computer off. Yes, of course I know that I can't expect and/or force her to admit this condition and to undergo DBT. Clearly, all in all it's better for me to step right back away from it all, but I do know that she spent many many years in therapy before she met me. That's why I found it all so puzzling that she was still behaving in such ways (to be honest, I spent a lot of time asking myself what the hell her therapist had been doing with her!). All I'm saying is that I do think that she's more aware of what's going on with her than I assume many other pwbpd (correct?) would be. Not that that helps me right now. Better just to focus on sorting myself out And yes, like you said, to ask why I let myself be held at gunpoint for so long.

Now I'm definitely signing off! Thanks so much. To be continued  

P.S. Go for it. Do some creative writing! I guess you can already tell that I like to write , but we can all do it. I'm sure it will help me, even though I'm a bit scared of some of the stuff that I need to confront.

[eastofeast]

As for your ex getting help, that would be a wonderful thing for her should she decide to pursue it, but you need to know that it is not and never was your responsibility. It is hard when we see someone who is suffering so much, and they tell us they know something is wrong and they need it to change. We may feel like we need to help them get help, but the only thing any of us can do is support someone as best we can if they make an effort to go through therapy. We can't facilitate it for them. It has to be something the other person wants and seeks out on their own.

You know... reading this makes me think about how strong her hold on me still is at this point. I sit here asking myself how it would be if she came to me in two, three or even more years than that, having completely recognised what happened, and worked out a recovery path. Let's just go with this fantasy for a minute - she reappears in my life at some point having changed radically, and let's also assume (big hypotheticals) that she still has roughly the same feelings for me, allowing for whatever has happened in the interval, and I still do for her... Would it, Could it work at all? After everything that happened. Would I feel guilty that I hadn't been patient or strong enough to deal with her moods? Would I be able to relax around her after all the previously conditioned behaviour? And for that matter, would she feel comfortable around me? Obviously I've got my faults, which would spark her off on a regular basis.

OK, stop... there's just noo point in asking these questions right now, because the priority, still 100%, has to be my recovery. But then again I do need to admit that these thoughts/feelings are there, don't I, and to find a way to manage them? So that's why I need to read a couple of books, I guess, because some of them will have something to tell me with regard to those thoughts. The only thing about the "I Hate You..." book is that people here, and on Amazon, say that it's a bit outdated in its terminology and outlook. I'm thinking that I might go for the Eggshells... and the Stop Caretaking... Haven't finalised the purchases yet, though

[I Am Redeemed]

SWOE and Stop Caretaking... are recommended frequently here. They are both good choices.

I totally get the fantasies about what would happen if your ex changed her whole mindset, got help, came back around...I used to think about the "what ifs" of those kinds of scenarios. I also realized the futility of engaging in those fantasies. But, like you, I struggled with the guilt that I should have been the one person who could handle someone like my ex.

Here is an article that describes what it takes to be an emotional caregiver in a relationship with a pwbpd. It helped me put some things in perspective. No one is able to do this 100% of the time, and no one is able to do this without knowing what they are up against.

https://bpdfamily.com/content/what-does-it-take-be-relationship

I think you are on the right track with focusing on your healing. Understanding our own patterns of thinking, our role in the relationship dynamics, and learning to process and heal from the emotional damage that has been caused is essential and it will help you in future relationships no matter if the person has bpd traits or not.

[eastofeast]

Well, that set of criteria for caretakers given in the article constitutes a pretty high bar for anyone! A full time job, in fact. Especially the fifth bullet point: "Don't take it personally." Very very VERY difficult in a context like the way my ex talked to me. For sure I must be much stronger now than I was two years ago, and potentially more able to fulfill those criteria, but no way am I going anywhere close to that point without very clear evidence of will to change; and since it's certainly best not to be expecting that any time soon I guess I'm just going to have to accept that there will be periods when I get stuck in that "what if" semi-messianic mystical healer complex, and that when that happens I need to remind myself to snap out of it and keep it all in perspective . Just as long as I stay rational for most of the time, which I'm sure I am able to do. You're right. I am on the right path.

I'm still very weary from it all. I spent a few months wheeling bags around London, moving from place to place in what became a symbolic period of transition. I call it my AirBnB Odyssey (got the Google Map marked with all the places I've been!). I didn't have any sense of wanting to settle down in a new place, and of course wasn't sure about wanting to stay in London (still not, in fact), but now I am in a (more or less) permanent place, with nice people that I had already stayed with on the journey. The odyssey was good for a while, because I genuinely had the feeling every time I moved out of a place that I was shedding some of the burden, but at the same time it has all been exhausting and I really wish I had more holiday now, boo hoo hoo hoo hoo. Still, I can say at least that I do feel so much better just for having had the chance to have this conversation. Obviously I wish I'd known about the condition and this group two years ago, but maybe I needed to go through this to become a stronger and more fully rounded person.

[eastofeast]

Hi there, just letting y'all know that I've been making a good headstart with Fjelstad's "Stop Caretaking..."  I'm finding it useful, for sure. Just been trying to work out what kind of caretaker I've been, and indeed whether this is even the first time that I've been in that role. Very possible that I've been drawn to it before, but wasn't really aware what I was doing.

I looked briefly at the "Caretaker Test" at the back of the book, and although I think it's a bit difficult (or even impossible) sometimes to give objective answers about one's own behaviour, I reckon that I've been somewhere in the middle - i.e. a protesting colluder That really does sound about right, as I'm pretty stubborn and can't tolerate illogical behaviour, but I persist because I believe in the investment of the relationship and seek to validate the feeling of euphoria that I had at the beginning (which was a cloud nine feeling in this last case). I also had the characteristic described there of allowing myself to be tricked again and again into believing that things are going to change. Maybe I was slightly on the higher end of that category, as I did have some symptoms of the next one up - the pathological altruist - for example, there was one particular occasion when I got a massive headache which lasted for a couple of days, obviously in reaction to a particularly crazy stretch of behaviour.

I bought "Stop Walking on Eggshells" as well, but I'm prioritising this book for now, because I think that I really need to focus on myself, rather than worrying about communication with someone with whom I'm no longer really communicating!

[eastofeast]

The main point of that last post was to say once again thank you to I Am Redeemed for so immediately making me feel at home here. I'm learning so much from reading around the posts and even contributing a little, and I am questioning myself just as rigorously as I need to, without beating myself up about it all.

[I Am Redeemed]

We're glad you feel welcome, eastofeast!

I have not read the Stop Caretaking book yet, but it sounds very interesting, particularly the different types of caretakers. I know others here have recommended that book highly.

The description you gave of the protesting colluder resonated with me. I had a pretty stubborn streak when it came to getting a return on my investment in the relationship, and I didn't want to believe that I had made a mistake in thinking that I had found my soulmate, which is what I believed in the beginning stages.

[The Wind]

It sounds like you're reading it already, but I'd highly recommend "Stop Taking Care of the Borderline..." .

I'm currently working through that book and I find myself highlighting nearly the whole book, and asking myself why didn't I read this 10 years ago? My wife had me convinced that she had bipolar disorder, and that she definitely did not have borderline personality disorder. Within the first couple of years that we were together I realized that the bipolar diagnosis didn't seem right, but borderline personality disorder did. I didn't trust my own senses for a long time and it set me back and us back, it's a wonder that we're still together today.

I'm certainly a caretaker, and it has been used against me, by my wife and by my own self. Reading through that book and some others have really opened my eyes to the changes that are needed in me, in how I think and interact with others in general, but especially my wife. I'll never be able to change her, but I can change how I interact with her and how I feel about those interactions. That book is really helping me to see myself, and her in a clear and concise way.

I hope it continues to be helpful for you too!

[eastofeast]

It sounds like you're reading it already, but I'd highly recommend "Stop Taking Care of the Borderline..." .

Yep I would say that I'm devouring this book! Lots of hard stuff, but I'm more than half way through.

I'm currently working through that book and I find myself highlighting nearly the whole book, and asking myself why didn't I read this 10 years ago?

Ha, yes, when I was reading it on Sunday I didn't have a highlighter pen around, and kept thinking that I really needed one!

The description you gave of the protesting colluder resonated with me. I had a pretty stubborn streak when it came to getting a return on my investment in the relationship, and I didn't want to believe that I had made a mistake in thinking that I had found my soulmate, which is what I believed in the beginning stages.

Ditto to all that. I really thought I was finally with my Dream Girl   and then when it wasn't exactly like that, first I got angry and then I did everything I could to work out what was wrong with me (bargaining) plus couple counselling. And when none of that solved anything, of course I got permanently depressed, she became more and more irritable and impatient, and that... was pretty much the end. Stages more or less exactly as described in that book!

[eastofeast]

I'm just going back with a highlighter over the chapters that I've already read, and here's a good quote (from page 29), which I think tells me why I was indeed a protesting colluder.
 
To become a Caretaker you need to be highly intuitive of the needs of the BP/NP, intelligent enough to learn the distorted and contradictory rules the BP/NP needs to function, observant enough to keep track of all the nuances of the fast-changing emotional family environment, and creative enough to find ways to calm and appease the BP/NP but also with a low enough self-esteem to not think that you deserve better treatment, more consideration, or equal caring in return.

I was aware of all the needs and the crazy contradictions mentioned here, but my stubborn rationality (and indeed my refusal to accept the denial of my individuality) prevented me from constantly pandering to them. I'm just too argumentative and individualistic to be able to play that role effectively for very long. And that is probably why the relationship couldn't last anything beyond the two years that it did!

And here is another one (page 75) that I find really interesting (and would be interested to hear other people's reactions):

Although Freud said that people select a marriage partner who is like the parent of the opposite gender, a more updated selection process has been observed. People coming from dysfunctional families select a marriage partner who is most like the significant family member with whom they have "unfinished business." That means that if you had a BP/NP parent, grandparent, or sibling, you are much more vulnerable to selecting a BP/NP spouse.

It's very true that I've hardly ever been attracted to women who were very similar (in character, I mean) to my mum. In fact all my lasting relationships have been with foreign women! Of course that doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't plenty of foreign women who are similar in character at least to my mum, and it also has a lot to do with me being a linguist. But it does tell you something, I guess. I couldn't say for sure, but it could well be that my dad fitted quite a few of the BP/NP criteria. Whether or not it comes to five or more of those criteria, I need to think a bit. It's really hard to say, because he wasn't actually around all that much, just visiting on weekends and all that; but hey, one thing that I do know for sure is that he was a hopeless alcoholic. The linguist part of me comes very much from my dad, so I suppose it is entirely possible that the linguist went out on an international research mission, looking for answers to the mysteries in my mind with regard to him. And certainly these foreign women that I've been attracted to have more often than not been very intense, some of them just as intense as my last gf, albeit not necessarily in the same way every time. I'll hold that thought, and keep on coming back to it!

[The Wind]

I often ask myself these days, why did I choose a relationship like this? Why did I think I deserved this kind of relationship?

I could draw some parallels with my wife and my mom, at least the younger earlier version of my mom who was to young to have a child (17). She was very strict, hard on me in emotional ways, just so young trying to find her own way and not ready to be a parent.

In the early days of my relationship with my wife, I thought I could love her enough and do enough to help make her more stable, make her better. I also felt inferior, that I didn't deserve something better than what I was getting. I placed myself in the ultimate rescuer position and thought that was my life's purpose and I truly thought that I'd rescue her from herself. It didn't matter to me that I wasnt getting things out of the relationship that I should have gotten, not then. I thought the end result would be worth it. The patience of Job would make it all better in the end. I've learned allot on that path about myself, and about her. It didn't make her better, or our relationship better.

The best thing I could have done was to allow her to stand or fall while standing or falling myself.

[eastofeast]

I didn't have the patience of Job, and quite right too I reacted always with frustration and questioning arguments which of course disappeared into an abyss, and once I was too exhausted for anger or indignation at all the accusations, I just got depressed, and that's when she got bored of the game. I'm still trying to work out how much it's BPD or NPD. No doubt it's a complicated area with pretty unclear boundaries.