Ex trying to force me into different things, + constant texts Part 2

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

Mod Note:  Part 1 of this thread is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=342665.0

Thanks FD. He called and asked when he could get the children. I ignored him. I would have called the police if he'd arrived.
So later he called to "talk to them," but then he just hung on the phone staring at them. Finally I had to hang up. They were upset and didn't know what to do. Who does? I reported that to my PC too. Not sure what she'll recommend.

[momtara]

Mod Note:  Part 1 of this thread is here:  https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=342665.0

Thanks FD. He called and asked when he could get the children. I ignored him. I would have called the police if he'd arrived.
So later he called to "talk to them," but then he just hung on the phone staring at them. Finally I had to hang up. They were upset and didn't know what to do. Who does? I reported that to my PC too. Not sure what she'll recommend.

[GaGrl]

Momtara, something is going on that has him disregulated. I don't think you can assume or take on any responsibility for triggering him. It may be completely outside your control.

Let the PC know his behavior is peculiar and of psychiatric concern, and don't involve the children.

[worriedStepmom]

How specific is your custody order?  Is it clearly defined when he is supposed to get the kids?   Is it clearly defined what a cancellation is? I'm asking this one because you want to make sure he is not setting you up.   Under my decree, there is no "cancellation" policy.  My ex could say "I'm not getting the kids" and still show up at the drop-off place.  If there's documentation I didn't show up as specified in the order, then I could be held in contempt...even though he said not to go.  You might want to ask your lawyer how to make sure you are covered in cases like this.

What do the communication guidelines say?

[Ulysses]

Hey momtara, sorry to hear all that you're having to go through.

I just wanted to comment re: the school meeting.  From my experience it is not typical to have a 7 year old at such a meeting.  I think you could contact the counselor and school psychologist at your child's school.  Explain your exH wants your child at the meeting and you don't.  They could communicate to both of you in writing who will attend the meeting.  It may be that you show up with your child because of your exH's demands, and the counselor and school psychologist can make sure the child study team is prepared to state it again in person, and have an alternative location for your child to wait.  You should bring something for your child to do.  I think rather than telling your exH that the school told you not to bring your child, you could work with the school so that the message comes directly from them.  That takes you out of it.  And contacting the school ahead of time will help them understand the situation.  I imagine this is not new for them.  If your exH explodes at the school because of it, well, then that's more for you to document and contact your PC about.  Not comfortable, very unfortunate, but I don't think any of us can prevent our exes from their implosions/explosions.

[livednlearned]

Telling his parents is something I'm not sure of, because his biggest trigger has always been if I tell his parents something. Don't want him to feel embarrassed down the road.

This sounds like splitting. People with BPD create wedges between people that tend to help the disordered parts stay disordered.

It's hard to reconcile how concerned you are about his behaviors on one hand (red alert), and on the other hand you don't want him to feel embarrassed (no red alert). I imagine you have higher than average tolerance for troubling behaviors for yourself, but not as high for the kids, so there's a bit of mixed messages coming through here.

I understand the terrain, and I know it's tricky. It might also be hard for the PC to tell what level of defcon you're trying to communicate. Even if you aren't talking about this same concern (embarrassing him by talking to his parents) the overall sentiment might be coming through: "I'm very scared here and also not willing to hurt his feelings."

[mart555]

So what happened in the end?

My ex ended up dysregulating / having psychotics episodes with the kids twice (or more..).  Once when she refused to meet them in the McDonalds and wanted them to meet with her in her car, parked at the far end of the empty parking lot.. but the kids refused and opted for outside the restaurant.  The second time was with her in the car, when she wasn't happy about the kids wanting a short visit the next week. She ended up turning off the radio and humming "a song that sounded like the chucky song and was creepy a.f." per my 10 years old son. 

And I'm not sure what I avoided but 3 days after the car humming episode, she told them that "daddy said there was a visit, I'm coming" when I had not agreed to anything..  she was hospitalized that evening, after a troubling behavior on the streed... and assaulted a paramedic later that night.   

To this day I keep wondering what would have happened... but it seems like all of them were pretty close to seeing something in the newspaper the next day where neighbours say "she was such a nice mom, how could that have happened"... 

[momtara]

Thanks, all. In the end, I avoided many of ex's calls. The PC got back to me and said that she would set up a meeting for both of us, which she did for later this month. I also sent exH an email, copying the PC, using some of the language people suggested here - like telling him NOT to discuss visitation in his phone calls to the kids.

I don't know if the PC meeting with both of us will solve the problem. He is likely off his medication. I asked PC to at least check if she's still getting reports from his docs saying he's still seeing them (but that doesn't tell us much).

Then ex asked a few days ago to take them this weekend. I was firm and I kindly said we had things planned. (This is my weekend.) We went a few days without calls from him, which was heaven. I felt calmer than in a year.

Then tonight he called and asked the kids if they want to see him next weekend, and they didn't know what to say. They said it's mommy and daddy's decision, which is true, so he kept persisting.

I may send him another email reminding him not to ask them that, and CC PC again. He has them next weekend and then we have a pc meeting later in the week, so I don't want him overly dysregulated, but I feel like I have to be firm...I guess.

As for the question of talking to his parents, his mom pulls back and always says she doesn't want to get involved, so maybe that's part of why I'm hesitant too. But it seems like you folks think I should at least say something. I'm contemplating it. It's just one of the things that made him most ballistic during our marriage -- if I told his family anything personal about him.

[livednlearned]

I'm so glad you were able to experience some calm even if it was only brief. Those moments helped me pay attention to what calm actually felt like! With childhood trauma and then my marriage/divorce, I think my body and nervous system was chronically stressed and vigilant, even when there was no immediate danger.

If he is off his meds, can he care for the kids without his parents helping?

If you are noticing that he may not be taking his meds, do you think his parents would notice, too?

For me, these issues are always about what it takes to be most effective. I understand the aversion to discussing him with his parents. What goal do you have given this latest episode of his dysregulation? Maybe you can start with that and then start thinking about the pros and cons of different paths. If he is off his meds and you are concerned, it seems like you will have to shine light on this new development one way or another.

[worriedStepmom]

Then tonight he called and asked the kids if they want to see him next weekend, and they didn't know what to say. They said it's mommy and daddy's decision, which is true, so he kept persisting.

I may send him another email reminding him not to ask them that, and CC PC again. He has them next weekend and then we have a pc meeting later in the week, so I don't want him overly dysregulated, but I feel like I have to be firm...I guess. .

Your kids have been trained well in how to deflect out of that triangle.  If he persists, then you may need to take action.

We tried the "please don't say or ask those types of things, as it is upsetting to SD12" route and it didn't work.  Finally, we started monitoring the phone calls.  When ex began that type of crap, H let the child deflect once.  The second time it was asked, H firmly stated "That's inappropriate.  It's time to change the subject."  The third time, he told SD to say goodbye to mom and then hung up the phone.

Ex was really angry.  She'd often call back, but H wouldn't answer.   It's been a few months since he started doing that, and she's now stopped that bad behavior.

[GaGrl]

It's early enough in the year to approach visitation (and the issues around it) with the PC, your ex, and his parents as simply the annual calendar and how you need it to work.

With the PC, can you clarify with your ex that you won't be switching weekends when he cancels his weekend -- per the calendar you give him? And with the PC, try to assess his stability. It is entirely possible he isn't taking his meds.

Then, once the calendar for the year is settled, along with the understanding with ex, you can email the calendar to both sets of grandparents for their info.

[momtara]

Worried Stepmom, thanks for sharing that. Makes me feel less alone in this and shows that boundaries do work, eventually. I'm getting better at setting them and not picking up the phone again.

Gargirl, Mar, Ulysses, and (as always! wise sage) Livedandlearned, thank you for being there and giving good ideas. I do need to figure out how to approach things with him and then separately with the PC, as GaGrl said.

I did email him and reminded him not to discuss inappropriate topics like visitation. I cc'd PC.

He responded that I shouldn't interfere in the calls (not a surprise).

Then he called and asked if he could speak with me. Fearing a trap or a fight, I said I might not know how to respond. He said I didn't have to.

He said he wants the kids to choose if they visit. Whoa? This can help in some ways but set a bad precedent. They are not nearly teens and don't usually make decisions like that.

So I may start a separate thread about this later once I've had time to process. I did some guesswork (we try to get into their heads way too much, but) and wondered if he's just not up to taking them as  much anymore. I said to him that if he didn't feel up to it for this weekend he should just let me know. And he said yes, not taking them this weekend.

So maybe in his mind, he's looking for an out some weekends.

I'm thinking maybe I can change it from every other weekend to every third weekend but I also don't want him to feel manipulated. We'll discuss with PC and I'll prep her. But I'm not sure I want the kids to continually be asked about visitation. In a few years they could turn it around and say they don't want to be with me on weekends cause I'm too strict or whatever. Maybe it can just be a unilateral thing. I dunno. I'd like to think that if he's feeling disordered, his solution would be to get back on his meds instead of giving up visitation...but it's not a normal situation. He does have health issues and anxieties and maybe he's going emotionally downhill. Even with his parents around.

[worriedStepmom]

Your kids are not old enough to decide whether to see dad that weekend.  Your ex is trying to parentify them - to have them make adult decisions that he doesn't want to make.  That, or he's using this to get the kids to beg to see him.  SD's mom did this a lot, and then, if SD wasn't excited enough about seeing mom, mom would threaten to leave her with us forever and never see her again.  It was very damaging for SD.

I like the idea of trying to negotiate that he only sees the kids once a month instead of twice.   He's not making good parenting decisions right now.

[GaGrl]

Yes, I'm back to thinking something is going on outside visitation and the kids, for him to be losing his usual level of functionality.

The PC can tell him that the children making visitation decisions is NOT the accepted or healthy way that visitation is set up and scheduled. There's a reason for court orders and schedules. Children don't need the burden of being responsible for adult decisions.

No wonder you would like to communicate with his parents. He doesn't sound stable.

Do you think he will move to once every three or four weeks?

[momtara]

WorriedStepmom, Parentify is a good term. That's helpful.
GaGrl, I don't know. This downslide started with a recent school meeting about son, and a doctor's appointment, but I don't know why else he's dysregulated. Having other professionals involved triggers him cause they'll see through him.
My other worry right now is that he'll try to fire our PC. He fired the other two and this one trains PC's, so I feel safer with her. She doesn't overcharge us and it'll be very hard to find another as they canceled the PC program years ago. She is our PC by court order, but he'll still try to wiggle out.
As for him going to every 3-4 weeks, maybe. But he also tries to keep ties with me. We might do that and he might come up with reasons to pop by and ask if we all want to go to dinner or something. I have to keep boundaries up.

[livednlearned]

This downslide started with a recent school meeting about son, and a doctor's appointment, but I don't know why else he's dysregulated.

My ex was also triggered by school meetings, as well as psychiatrists.

He had no boundaries between how he perceived our son and how he perceived himself.  To n/BPDx, our son was a mini me so any stigma was felt personally.

Having professionals sniffing around was existentially threatening to n/BPDx. He had virtually no real sense of self so his primary defense to perceived threats (especially when it ran counter to how he perceived himself) was to create chaos and throw everyone in a tailspin.

Your ex is effectively doing the same thing. Instead of focusing on the help your son may need for ADHD, ex is creating drama over other things. I don't know that it matters if it's conscious or not because the effect is the same.

"The kids will not be making decisions about visitation. If there are weekends you prefer to take a pass, I am agreeable to that."

Or something like that.

He wants to save face it sounds like. Maybe the PC can help you figure out a way to phrase it best.

[kells76]

My other worry right now is that he'll try to fire our PC. He fired the other two and this one trains PC's, so I feel safer with her. She doesn't overcharge us and it'll be very hard to find another as they canceled the PC program years ago.

Can he do this unilaterally?

She is our PC by court order, but he'll still try to wiggle out.

Would that look like him refusing to engage with or communicate via the PC?

Would that be different than what he's doing now?