Highly Functioning BPD

[alleyesonme]

Quick question here: is there a separate official DSM for Highly Functioning BPD? I know it's discussed extensively in "Stop Walking on Eggshells," but I still haven't ever seen an official DSM for it.

[MeandThee29]

From what I've been told, not in the DSM. That's a designation that many providers make separately, basically whether the person functions in professional life and somewhat at home versus really been shut down in all areas. Of course it's a spectrum. Some actually get better with time, and some get worse.

A therapist friend of mine (not my therapist) commented that it really doesn't matter. If the person is damaging your wellbeing, you need to evaluate the relationship regardless of where they are on the spectrum.

[alleyesonme]

From what I've been told, not in the DSM. That's a designation that many providers make separately, basically whether the person functions in professional life and somewhat at home versus really been shut down in all areas. Of course it's a spectrum. Some actually get better with time, and some get worse.

A therapist friend of mine (not my therapist) commented that it really doesn't matter. If the person is damaging your wellbeing, you need to evaluate the relationship regardless of where they are on the spectrum.

Thank you for the info. Great point by your friend.

For the purpose of a possible future custody battle, I wonder if the courts acknowledge the existence of highly functioning BPD and take it as seriously as the more "traditional" version.

[ForeverDad]

Most of us never get a diagnosis to wave for attention in court.  My court actually seemed to avoid seeking a diagnosis.  My excellent Custody Evaluator directly told me in our first session that he wasn't there to diagnosis anyone, he was to do an in depth evaluation of the family issues and make a recommendation to the court.

The problem with a diagnosis is... what does it really mean?  How to categorize its impact?  So courts typically pay more attention to documented behaviors.  (Sorry, "he always..." and "she always..." are generally ignored by courts as too vague or unsubstantiated hearsay.)  What is documented?  Police reports, CPS or other agency reports, even your own logs, diaries or calendars that contain details of incidents.  Many courts, mine included, don't care to listen to incidents older than six months (considered "stale") though it may listen to older instances if it is to establish patterns of behavior over time.

[MeandThee29]

Most of us never get a diagnosis to wave for attention in court.  My court actually seemed to avoid seeking a diagnosis.  My excellent Custody Evaluator directly told me in our first session that he wasn't there to diagnosis anyone, he was to do an in depth evaluation of the family issues and make a recommendation to the court.

The problem with a diagnosis is... what does it really mean?  How to categorize its impact?  So courts typically pay more attention to documented behaviors.  (Sorry, "he always..." and "she always..." are generally ignored by courts as too vague or unsubstantiated hearsay.)  What is documented?  Police reports, CPS or other agency reports, even your own logs, diaries or calendars that contain details of incidents.  Many courts, mine included, don't care to listen to incidents older than six months (considered "stale") though it may listen to older instances if it is to establish patterns of behavior over time.

That's what my attorney said. When it was looking like we might go to court, he said to focus on behaviors even though he was formally diagnosed. Thankfully it was a negotiated settlement in the end and never had to come to light. But his attorney experienced some of it.

[LightAfterTunnel]

Hi alleyesonme,

ForeverDad hit it right on the head with his comments. In fact, thank you very much ForeverDad because your advice has been impeccable for me to listen to over these years.

14 months into my court battle...judge openly has stated that she doesn’t want me to push for a diagnosis of exBPDw (however judge knows exBPDw was diagnosed in US in 2006 but refuses to care because it’s too old) and wants us to “make the standard arrangement work”. Well...many months later it’s the police reports, school reports, lies to judge, not listening to court ordered mediator, not following custody orders that is slowly burying exBPDw.

What I’ve been slow to come to terms with, and I’m finally arriving at, is my overall disappointment in the civil court system to protect my children. The process is slow and highly inefficient and they pay the price no matter how much I try to protect them.

I wish someone could explain to me how it’s possible that we still don’t have a more effective court system in place to deal with mental health issues and divorce, especially when children are involved.

Anyway...good luck alleyesonme. The people on this forum have been invaluable to me and many others.

LAT

[PeteWitsend]

...
A therapist friend of mine (not my therapist) commented that it really doesn't matter. If the person is damaging your wellbeing, you need to evaluate the relationship regardless of where they are on the spectrum.

This makes a lot of sense.  I'd add, when I was first learning about BPD and struggling to decide what to do about my situation, it was easy to get off-track by focusing on details like this. 

But whether a pwBPD is high-functioning or not might be of interest in some academic sense, but when they're being abusive to you and your family or friends, it doesn't matter whether they have a career, or impressive academic credentials.  And I'm also curious whether "high functioning" is even a consistent trait.  How many "high functioning" pwBPD just know how to fake it, and fall apart over time? 

[zachira]

Getting a diagnosis for BPD is extremely difficult, and as others have already said the court is mainly interested in documentation of highly dysfunctional behaviors and the impact on the children.  One of the challenges of getting  a diagnosis are that the high functioning BPDs only show their dysfunctional behaviors to the people they are closest to and most comfortable with, which unfortunately tends to be their children, and a parent with BPD may hide some of their worst behaviors from the other parent and only exhibit these behaviors when alone with the children. Another challenge in getting a diagnosis is a lot of mental health professionals do not believe in personality disorders, and tend to diagnose clients with what managed care will pay for. Managed care does not usually  pay for treatment for personality disorders. Keeping a chronological journal of your children's mother's behaviors is valid legal evidence for court. Also, recommended is to communicate only in writing, like by email with your children's mother, so you have that as legal documentation.

[livednlearned]

For the purpose of a possible future custody battle, I wonder if the courts acknowledge the existence of highly functioning BPD and take it as seriously as the more "traditional" version.

I read some of your earlier posts and with that much BPD in the family, I'm not so sure your wife would be considered highly functioning  

For many of us, we have to shine light --- lots and lots and lots of light -- on our situations. We do that with documentation, like journals, recordings (if you live in a one-party consent state), through third-party officials like teachers, counselors, and in some cases court-appointed custody evaluations that can include an objective diagnostic psychiatric survey like the MMPI-2.

BPD comes to the surface, it just does. But it can take some effort (and expense) to shine the lights.

The severity spectrum in terms of court battles seems to be whether your spouse is a high-conflict personality, or what Bill Eddy calls HCPs (Eddy wrote Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse).

According to Eddy, HCPs are people who have a target of blame, recruit negative advocates, are persuasive blamers, and have some kind of personality disorder. Severity is also gauged by whether the person with BPD is dangerous, which includes DV, substance abuse, a history of making false legal allegations, and a history of suicide attempts or self harm. From what you describe, your wife seems primed to be HCP (an environment of BPD abuse and family members) and has been violent with you on top of that.

Your wife may be somewhat regulated to some extent by your particular way of grounding her, and is able to be relatively regulated in short-term or relatively superficial relationships. During a divorce, most people with BPD (and a lot of us, the non-BPD spouses) will experience code red levels of emotional dysregulation, so her symptoms will worsen. Yours will too, altho unlike her, you will be able to return to baseline and ideally, your conflict management skills will become black belt.

What tends to happen for us is a marathon, not a sprint. That means the more "high functioning" the spouse, the more the courts will need help to witness the problem behaviors. Because that's what the judge is, a supreme witness to the case. If it's a he-said, she-said, things will in all likelihood get split down the middle. The judge can't tell what's going on and errs on the side of even steven. That's why it's better to come in with stuff to back up your story, like documentation.

By definition, marathon court battles suggest to the court that one (or both) parents probably has a personality disorder. For regular couples, the emotional code red tones down after a while but for our divorces, one person continues to stay dysregulated. It takes a while to tell that whole story.

If you come into the divorce with a story of what has occurred, especially if it was backed up by third-party professionals, the court will take it into consideration and probably do a halfway thing, with maybe a marginally bigger chunk for mom (absent documentation to give them pause). The key is to ask for reasonable things and then document the ways in which mom is not able to comply. Instead of getting the whole pie, you might get a forkful, then a narrow slice, then a full slice, then two slices, until eventually you get close to the whole pie.

That's why terminology of full and primary custody is kind of misleading. You won't get full custody because not many of us do, including mothers. We don't get the full pie the first go-around. We can ask for it, but even with moms, we tend to get only a slighter bigger portion of pie, like 60/40 on visitation + primary physical custody (and shared or joint legal custody).

Also, a lawyer who tells you that you won't get full custody is just perpetuating a stereotype, imo. A lot of dads don't get full custody because they don't ask for it. What they are likely telling you is that you won't get full custody right away. That doesn't mean you shouldn't ask for it, unless they can convince you that there are legitimate downsides.  

I don't know anyone here who got full custody right away. Most of us had to chip away at it, including me, a mom, in a state that is said to be biased towards moms. My lawyer told me I would never get full custody (we don't even really have that terminology in my state). In mediation, I insisted on sole legal custody because my ex would shoot himself in the foot if it meant spiting me. This had terrible implications for our son. I didn't get sole legal custody right away, and it just meant that the parties could agree to most things but not this one thing. Eventually my ex demonstrated, in his own emails, that he could not cooperate in making joint decisions and I ended up with what is essentially full custody, four years later. That's just one example of how it can go, there are many other versions in which it takes time (and unfortunately money) to get enough pie to stabilize your daughter.

Even if you choose to stay with your wife, it's really smart to gather information by consulting with one or two or three lawyers to figure out how to protect yourself just in case things go sideways. We picked highly unstable people and that can put us in legal jeopardy more so than regular marriages. It's ok to be informed, and to keep that information private, out of love for your daughter and her well-being.

Meanwhile, keep posting on the bettering relationships board  

It's a really good place to learn some of the skills that come in handy whether you stay or not.

[KingofTexas37891]

@OP
I had a custody battle with a high functioning BPD who filed an ex-parte restraining order against me. I was awarded joint physical and legal custody and her case was dismissed.

Do not waste your time too much trying to ask for a court-ordered mental health evaluation if she is high functioning. The Judge will not spend a minute on this because such a case is not severe for a court to take action.

Focus on factual actions she did that you can prove in Court. And if you can use a lawyer to come to an amicable custody and parenting time agreement with her with a detailed parenting plan.

[livednlearned]

Do not waste your time too much trying to ask for a court-ordered mental health evaluation if she is high functioning.

Sometimes these evals are standard practice in custody evaluations.

When you talk to lawyers, it's helpful to state what your goal is (e.g. eventual primary custody with majority visitation), then ask how they might approach it (strategy), then ask for tactics.

Tactics can include depositions, custody evals, co-parenting counselor/parenting coordinator, email/journal documentation, subpoenas of key people, etc.

[alleyesonme]

Most of us never get a diagnosis to wave for attention in court.  My court actually seemed to avoid seeking a diagnosis.  My excellent Custody Evaluator directly told me in our first session that he wasn't there to diagnosis anyone, he was to do an in depth evaluation of the family issues and make a recommendation to the court.

The problem with a diagnosis is... what does it really mean?  How to categorize its impact?  So courts typically pay more attention to documented behaviors.  (Sorry, "he always..." and "she always..." are generally ignored by courts as too vague or unsubstantiated hearsay.)  What is documented?  Police reports, CPS or other agency reports, even your own logs, diaries or calendars that contain details of incidents.  Many courts, mine included, don't care to listen to incidents older than six months (considered "stale") though it may listen to older instances if it is to establish patterns of behavior over time.

Great info here - thank you. I've been keeping a daily journal for several years now, and I also send emails to certain friends whenever she gets physical with me, so I do have some documentation. I've had some people suggest that I call the police the next time she gets physical with me, but even if I don't do anything wrong (which I haven't and won't), being mentioned in a police report for domestic violence would likely prevent me from ever getting another job in my industry again. That's a tough one to balance there.

[alleyesonme]

Hi alleyesonme,

ForeverDad hit it right on the head with his comments. In fact, thank you very much ForeverDad because your advice has been impeccable for me to listen to over these years.

14 months into my court battle...judge openly has stated that she doesn’t want me to push for a diagnosis of exBPDw (however judge knows exBPDw was diagnosed in US in 2006 but refuses to care because it’s too old) and wants us to “make the standard arrangement work”. Well...many months later it’s the police reports, school reports, lies to judge, not listening to court ordered mediator, not following custody orders that is slowly burying exBPDw.

What I’ve been slow to come to terms with, and I’m finally arriving at, is my overall disappointment in the civil court system to protect my children. The process is slow and highly inefficient and they pay the price no matter how much I try to protect them.

I wish someone could explain to me how it’s possible that we still don’t have a more effective court system in place to deal with mental health issues and divorce, especially when children are involved.

Anyway...good luck alleyesonme. The people on this forum have been invaluable to me and many others.

LAT

Thank you for your support! This site is awesome, and that's because of all of the caring and knowledgeable posters.

Completely agree with you about the court system. I haven't been as far down that road as you have, but that definitely is a travesty.

[alleyesonme]

Hi alleyesonme,

ForeverDad hit it right on the head with his comments. In fact, thank you very much ForeverDad because your advice has been impeccable for me to listen to over these years.

14 months into my court battle...judge openly has stated that she doesn’t want me to push for a diagnosis of exBPDw (however judge knows exBPDw was diagnosed in US in 2006 but refuses to care because it’s too old) and wants us to “make the standard arrangement work”. Well...many months later it’s the police reports, school reports, lies to judge, not listening to court ordered mediator, not following custody orders that is slowly burying exBPDw.

What I’ve been slow to come to terms with, and I’m finally arriving at, is my overall disappointment in the civil court system to protect my children. The process is slow and highly inefficient and they pay the price no matter how much I try to protect them.

I wish someone could explain to me how it’s possible that we still don’t have a more effective court system in place to deal with mental health issues and divorce, especially when children are involved.

Anyway...good luck alleyesonme. The people on this forum have been invaluable to me and many others.

LAT

Also, I'm very glad to hear that you've got some momentum now in terms of building a case against your ex. It's awful that it's taken this long, but at least it's encouraging that you're making progress.

[alleyesonme]

This makes a lot of sense.  I'd add, when I was first learning about BPD and struggling to decide what to do about my situation, it was easy to get off-track by focusing on details like this. 

But whether a pwBPD is high-functioning or not might be of interest in some academic sense, but when they're being abusive to you and your family or friends, it doesn't matter whether they have a career, or impressive academic credentials.  And I'm also curious whether "high functioning" is even a consistent trait.  How many "high functioning" pwBPD just know how to fake it, and fall apart over time? 

Good points all around here. I guess I've hoped for an official diagnosis so I could have some sort of tangible proof of how bad she's been to me and how my daughter is better off with me than with her. I admit to getting sidetracked by that too much.

And good point about high functioning pwBPD. I think you hit the nail on the head - by nature, they all fall apart when you see their true colors. Fortunately or unfortunately, only the one or two people closest to them ever see those true colors, so most people are fooled by the pwBPD's ability to fake it.

[alleyesonme]

Getting a diagnosis for BPD is extremely difficult, and as others have already said the court is mainly interested in documentation of highly dysfunctional behaviors and the impact on the children.  One of the challenges of getting  a diagnosis are that the high functioning BPDs only show their dysfunctional behaviors to the people they are closest to and most comfortable with, which unfortunately tends to be their children, and a parent with BPD may hide some of their worst behaviors from the other parent and only exhibit these behaviors when alone with the children. Another challenge in getting a diagnosis is a lot of mental health professionals do not believe in personality disorders, and tend to diagnose clients with what managed care will pay for. Managed care does not usually  pay for treatment for personality disorders. Keeping a chronological journal of your children's mother's behaviors is valid legal evidence for court. Also, recommended is to communicate only in writing, like by email with your children's mother, so you have that as legal documentation.

Awesome info here. As I mentioned in another message I just posted, I've been keeping a running journal on everything she's done for several years now. I hope it doesn't ever come to that, but I'll be ready if necessary.

Great point about how difficult it is to actually get a diagnosis anyway. And at the end of the day, I have zero control over what she tells her therapist or what the therapist believes or even how competent the therapist is. In our particular situation, I'm the one that bears the brunt of my wife's BPD behavior. She does yell at our daughter at times, but is only verbally and physically abusive with me. One of my many concerns is that if we end up getting divorced, would my daughter then become the target of all of that rage once I'm not in the same house? That would be a concern I'd want my attorney to hammer home if we get into a custody battle. 

[alleyesonme]

I read some of your earlier posts and with that much BPD in the family, I'm not so sure your wife would be considered highly functioning  

For many of us, we have to shine light --- lots and lots and lots of light -- on our situations. We do that with documentation, like journals, recordings (if you live in a one-party consent state), through third-party officials like teachers, counselors, and in some cases court-appointed custody evaluations that can include an objective diagnostic psychiatric survey like the MMPI-2.

BPD comes to the surface, it just does. But it can take some effort (and expense) to shine the lights.

The severity spectrum in terms of court battles seems to be whether your spouse is a high-conflict personality, or what Bill Eddy calls HCPs (Eddy wrote Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a BPD/NPD Spouse).

According to Eddy, HCPs are people who have a target of blame, recruit negative advocates, are persuasive blamers, and have some kind of personality disorder. Severity is also gauged by whether the person with BPD is dangerous, which includes DV, substance abuse, a history of making false legal allegations, and a history of suicide attempts or self harm. From what you describe, your wife seems primed to be HCP (an environment of BPD abuse and family members) and has been violent with you on top of that.

Your wife may be somewhat regulated to some extent by your particular way of grounding her, and is able to be relatively regulated in short-term or relatively superficial relationships. During a divorce, most people with BPD (and a lot of us, the non-BPD spouses) will experience code red levels of emotional dysregulation, so her symptoms will worsen. Yours will too, altho unlike her, you will be able to return to baseline and ideally, your conflict management skills will become black belt.

What tends to happen for us is a marathon, not a sprint. That means the more "high functioning" the spouse, the more the courts will need help to witness the problem behaviors. Because that's what the judge is, a supreme witness to the case. If it's a he-said, she-said, things will in all likelihood get split down the middle. The judge can't tell what's going on and errs on the side of even steven. That's why it's better to come in with stuff to back up your story, like documentation.

By definition, marathon court battles suggest to the court that one (or both) parents probably has a personality disorder. For regular couples, the emotional code red tones down after a while but for our divorces, one person continues to stay dysregulated. It takes a while to tell that whole story.

If you come into the divorce with a story of what has occurred, especially if it was backed up by third-party professionals, the court will take it into consideration and probably do a halfway thing, with maybe a marginally bigger chunk for mom (absent documentation to give them pause). The key is to ask for reasonable things and then document the ways in which mom is not able to comply. Instead of getting the whole pie, you might get a forkful, then a narrow slice, then a full slice, then two slices, until eventually you get close to the whole pie.

That's why terminology of full and primary custody is kind of misleading. You won't get full custody because not many of us do, including mothers. We don't get the full pie the first go-around. We can ask for it, but even with moms, we tend to get only a slighter bigger portion of pie, like 60/40 on visitation + primary physical custody (and shared or joint legal custody).

Also, a lawyer who tells you that you won't get full custody is just perpetuating a stereotype, imo. A lot of dads don't get full custody because they don't ask for it. What they are likely telling you is that you won't get full custody right away. That doesn't mean you shouldn't ask for it, unless they can convince you that there are legitimate downsides.  

I don't know anyone here who got full custody right away. Most of us had to chip away at it, including me, a mom, in a state that is said to be biased towards moms. My lawyer told me I would never get full custody (we don't even really have that terminology in my state). In mediation, I insisted on sole legal custody because my ex would shoot himself in the foot if it meant spiting me. This had terrible implications for our son. I didn't get sole legal custody right away, and it just meant that the parties could agree to most things but not this one thing. Eventually my ex demonstrated, in his own emails, that he could not cooperate in making joint decisions and I ended up with what is essentially full custody, four years later. That's just one example of how it can go, there are many other versions in which it takes time (and unfortunately money) to get enough pie to stabilize your daughter.

Even if you choose to stay with your wife, it's really smart to gather information by consulting with one or two or three lawyers to figure out how to protect yourself just in case things go sideways. We picked highly unstable people and that can put us in legal jeopardy more so than regular marriages. It's ok to be informed, and to keep that information private, out of love for your daughter and her well-being.

Meanwhile, keep posting on the bettering relationships board  

It's a really good place to learn some of the skills that come in handy whether you stay or not.

Thanks for reading and making an effort to help. I agree that she may not be highly functioning. I was mainly going off of the definitions used in "Stop Walking on Eggshells" whereby low functioning BP's are the ones that slit their wrists and are regularly on suicide watch. She doesn't do any of that, so I assumed that she could only fit the high functioning definition.

Thank you for the info on HCPs - I'll try to learn more about that. As you said, she's definitely an HCP.

What you mentioned is one of my fears - that once I file for divorce and my wife feels that massive abandonment and rejection and the possibility of losing our daughter, her rage towards me will increase exponentially. That's something I'll need to plan for in advance.

An attorney I know suggested having a nanny cam installed in our house to capture everything she does to me and/or our daughter. I'm planning to do this, but we're both always home because of the quarantine, so I haven't had a chance to do it yet.

Thank you for the warning about the emotional tolls of the divorce even for the non-BP spouse. It sounds awful, and it's very intimidating and scary to know I may need to go through all of that.

Awesome advice about having to slowly chip away to get more and more custody over time. I hadn't thought of it that way, but that really helps.

That sucks that it took four years, but I'm so glad to hear that you finally got (essentially) full custody. Sounds like a much better situation for you and your son. And putting myself in your son's shoes for a minute, the fact that he knows you were fighting for him for years and refused to give up is extremely powerful and impressive. Whether or not he's actually told you that, I'm sure he feels it and appreciates it immensely.

[alleyesonme]

@OP
I had a custody battle with a high functioning BPD who filed an ex-parte restraining order against me. I was awarded joint physical and legal custody and her case was dismissed.

Do not waste your time too much trying to ask for a court-ordered mental health evaluation if she is high functioning. The Judge will not spend a minute on this because such a case is not severe for a court to take action.

Focus on factual actions she did that you can prove in Court. And if you can use a lawyer to come to an amicable custody and parenting time agreement with her with a detailed parenting plan.

Thank you for the advice! Only a BP could be delusional enough to file an ex parte restraining order against a non-BP. Very glad it was dismissed!

The one potential ace I have here is that some of the physical abuse has happened in front of my daughter. I've heard mixed advice on this, as some people have told me that the courts won't care if she's been physically abusive toward me as long as she hasn't done it to my daughter. But others have told me that the courts may grant me full custody (or at least more than 50%) when they hear that she did that stuff in front of my daughter.

[alleyesonme]

Sometimes these evals are standard practice in custody evaluations.

When you talk to lawyers, it's helpful to state what your goal is (e.g. eventual primary custody with majority visitation), then ask how they might approach it (strategy), then ask for tactics.

Tactics can include depositions, custody evals, co-parenting counselor/parenting coordinator, email/journal documentation, subpoenas of key people, etc.

Good call. And if it comes to that, it sounds like I'll need to interview several lawyers to get a feel for their experience in similar cases and how they'd plan to handle mine.

[livednlearned]

once I file for divorce and my wife feels that massive abandonment and rejection and the possibility of losing our daughter, her rage towards me will increase exponentially. That's something I'll need to plan for in advance.

You may also want to prepare for parental alienation. Your wife probably doesn't see your daughter as a separate person from her -- if she is BPD, she will struggle with boundaries, and that's what invokes so much rage. Your daughter, as an extension of mom, must never digress from what mom wants. Since you have been split black, she will want D to split you black too. Read Divorce Poison by Richard Warshark (some of what he writes about may occur, chances are it won't be the worst stuff given your preparation), and Don't Alienate the Kids by Bill Eddy. Anything written by Dr. Craig Childress. And the fundamentals to everything: validate validate validate your daughter's feelings. Mom will likely try to erase D's feelings so you will be the parent who helps her name and label and regulate them. She will desperately need those emotions and her own emotional intelligence to develop a sense of self independent of her mom.

Thank you for the warning about the emotional tolls of the divorce even for the non-BP spouse. It sounds awful, and it's very intimidating and scary to know I may need to go through all of that.

Knowing it will likely happen helps you cut down the severity in half! You're fortunate to have this time to learn and prepare.

putting myself in your son's shoes for a minute, the fact that he knows you were fighting for him for years and refused to give up is extremely powerful and impressive. Whether or not he's actually told you that, I'm sure he feels it and appreciates it immensely.

He recently told me he wished I had protected him sooner which captures both sides of the coin. I was there for him and I wasn't, a scorching pain I am still working through and probably will for a long time. And he has said that he trusts me, which means a lot when a child is abused so deeply by parental alienation. I believe the books and authors I mentioned and what they talk me (skills that are not intuitive for many of us) are the reason why my son is not struggling more than he is.

For us, the alienation began in earnest as my son became older (milder versions of it at 8, 9 when we all lived together, and then more overtly at 10, 11, 12, 13 during active custody and divorce proceedings) and it was clear he felt safer with me, altho he still had to sort through things on his own, at least until meeting the right therapist. Earlier, his dad was part scary, part unpredictable, but mostly not involved so it was easier for me to be the stable parent.

Only now, at 18, is my son opening up about how he worked through that mess. My ex was convinced I was having affairs, and S18 thought to himself, How can she be having an affair if I'm with her all the time?

I had to change the narrative to, "Do you have any questions for me?" and "Ouch, how did that feel when dad said that?" Instead of defending myself or doing a milder version of what his dad was doing, which was "Believe me, not him." That's not what S18 needed. He needed help figuring out what he was feeling, and then begin to figure out who was looking out for those feelings and helping him find language for them so he could understand what was happening.

You're smart and you're doing research, putting pieces in place, planning in advance, reaching out for support and advice. It can't be overstated how important it is what you're doing, how much it will help you reach a positive outcome, for yourself and for D. And even for mom, who won't be able to regulate her emotions, and therefore won't make good choices. The more you know what to expect, the more skills and knowledge you have in place, the less disastrous the effects of her BPD on herself and those around her.

[ForeverDad]

I'll focus on the court system in general.  Of course every court can handle family circumstances differently, domestic courts are given a lot of discretion in decisions.  That's an issue for us since the initial temp orders are typically "fill in the blanks" and mother typically get the default preference.

That's a pet peeve of mine, judges issuing temp orders don't seem to like putting documentation into their decision-making.  If you can, get as much documentation "on the record" (and your clear and calm statement you have been an involved parent and plan to continue being an involved parent) so you have the ability to reference it later.

Too often dads are told to take a back seat and settle for alternate weekends.  Don't let that social pressure make you retreat as dad.

I had a two year divorce, the last step before the trial was scheduled was a Settlement Conference in my lawyer's conference room.  I recall beforehand, while in my lawyer's office, her lawyer came in, sat down and started talking, just the 3 of us.  One of the things he said was that he himself was divorced and he had alternate weekends (same as what I had during the temporary order).  He suggested that as something to agree with.  I said, "Sure, sounds good to me but I don't think Ms FD wants alternate weekends."   He was quiet after that.

By the way, that was one of the few times in my life where I had a wonderful answer at the right time.  I savored the moment.

Also, courts are used to conflict and heightened emotions in the initial stages of a separation and divorce.  They expect it.  However, though most divorces (some 85-90%) do calm down sufficiently to exit the court system in a workable framework, that leaves the remainder (10-15%) needing further adjustments in police and CPS actions and returns to courts.  Most of these high conflict cases involve some level of acting-out Personality Disorders — Narcissistic, Borderline, Histrionic, Antisocial, Paranoid.

In my separation and divorce my spouse had consistently displayed obstructive and sabotaging behaviors against me.  Court and lawyers tried to downplay it.  Didn't reduce.  She had temp custody and I had alternate weekends for two years.  The best I could exit the divorce with was Shared Parenting, joint custody with equal parenting time.  (To avoid the trial, I insisted the ex give up on her expectation to be "residential parent for school purposes".  Both lawyers pooh-poohed any importance, but within weeks our kindergartner was rejected from her school due to her behaviors there.  School couldn't have done that if she was still in charge of schooling.)

Within a couple years I was back in court with Change of Circumstances court actions.  She hadn't changed, rather her behaviors hadn't changed and court was coming to recognize that.  I got custody.  I still faced her entitlement.  A couple more years and I returned for majority time which I'd been refused before.  Each of these cases took a year and a half.  This last time was two full days before the county's best (least bad) magistrate.  The decision identified that ex was disparaging father and granted majority time during the school year.  The reality was that she had never stopped disparaging, but the court finally stopped ignoring, finally stopped expecting her to become normal in post-divorce life and finally addressed that.

Things for me and our son did get better, but gradually over years.  It appears courts are reluctant to make big changes, they prefer to make incremental fixes.  That's why we always encourage separating members to get the best (least bad) temp order possible at the start because after that fixes often are small steps.  Of course, this is a generalization, your court may be better and more responsive.

[alleyesonme]

You may also want to prepare for parental alienation. Your wife probably doesn't see your daughter as a separate person from her -- if she is BPD, she will struggle with boundaries, and that's what invokes so much rage. Your daughter, as an extension of mom, must never digress from what mom wants. Since you have been split black, she will want D to split you black too. Read Divorce Poison by Richard Warshark (some of what he writes about may occur, chances are it won't be the worst stuff given your preparation), and Don't Alienate the Kids by Bill Eddy. Anything written by Dr. Craig Childress. And the fundamentals to everything: validate validate validate your daughter's feelings. Mom will likely try to erase D's feelings so you will be the parent who helps her name and label and regulate them. She will desperately need those emotions and her own emotional intelligence to develop a sense of self independent of her mom.

Knowing it will likely happen helps you cut down the severity in half! You're fortunate to have this time to learn and prepare.

He recently told me he wished I had protected him sooner which captures both sides of the coin. I was there for him and I wasn't, a scorching pain I am still working through and probably will for a long time. And he has said that he trusts me, which means a lot when a child is abused so deeply by parental alienation. I believe the books and authors I mentioned and what they talk me (skills that are not intuitive for many of us) are the reason why my son is not struggling more than he is.

For us, the alienation began in earnest as my son became older (milder versions of it at 8, 9 when we all lived together, and then more overtly at 10, 11, 12, 13 during active custody and divorce proceedings) and it was clear he felt safer with me, altho he still had to sort through things on his own, at least until meeting the right therapist. Earlier, his dad was part scary, part unpredictable, but mostly not involved so it was easier for me to be the stable parent.

Only now, at 18, is my son opening up about how he worked through that mess. My ex was convinced I was having affairs, and S18 thought to himself, How can she be having an affair if I'm with her all the time?

I had to change the narrative to, "Do you have any questions for me?" and "Ouch, how did that feel when dad said that?" Instead of defending myself or doing a milder version of what his dad was doing, which was "Believe me, not him." That's not what S18 needed. He needed help figuring out what he was feeling, and then begin to figure out who was looking out for those feelings and helping him find language for them so he could understand what was happening.

You're smart and you're doing research, putting pieces in place, planning in advance, reaching out for support and advice. It can't be overstated how important it is what you're doing, how much it will help you reach a positive outcome, for yourself and for D. And even for mom, who won't be able to regulate her emotions, and therefore won't make good choices. The more you know what to expect, the more skills and knowledge you have in place, the less disastrous the effects of her BPD on herself and those around her.

Thank you so much for the book recommendations about parental alienation. That's definitely something I've been worrying about, and I'll be sure to read those books.

This board is so valuable for me. With all of the resources, posters here and book recommendations, you're absolutely right that I'll be much more prepared than I would've been otherwise. It's still extremely hard and scary to think about what will happen, but at least I know I'll have the tools I need to make the best of it.

I obviously don't know anywhere close to all of the details of your situation. I can see how that would be tough to hear your son say he wishes you'd protected him sooner, but my retort to that on your behalf would be that you did everything you could to protect him. There's only so much you can do given the nature of the legal system. If he doesn't already realize that, I'm sure he will as he gets older.

That took some serious strength for you to take the high road amidst all of those allegations and respond in the way that's best for your son in the short term and long term. Were you prepared for that to happen ahead of time, or was that your natural reaction? Either way, very impressive.

Thank you. I still have a lot to learn, but it's not like the divorce needs to happen tomorrow. Reading "Stop Walking on Eggshells" was huge for me, as I learned so much just from the book, and then that's only the tip of the iceberg because I'm learning so much here as well.

[alleyesonme]

I'll focus on the court system in general.  Of course every court can handle family circumstances differently, domestic courts are given a lot of discretion in decisions.  That's an issue for us since the initial temp orders are typically "fill in the blanks" and mother typically get the default preference.

That's a pet peeve of mine, judges issuing temp orders don't seem to like putting documentation into their decision-making.  If you can, get as much documentation "on the record" (and your clear and calm statement you have been an involved parent and plan to continue being an involved parent) so you have the ability to reference it later.

Too often dads are told to take a back seat and settle for alternate weekends.  Don't let that social pressure make you retreat as dad.

Also, courts are used to conflict and heightened emotions in the initial stages of a separation and divorce.  They expect it.  However, though most divorces (some 85-90%) do calm down sufficiently to exit the court system in a workable framework, that leaves the remainder (10-15%) needing further adjustments in police and CPS actions and returns to courts.  Most of these high conflict cases involve some level of acting-out Personality Disorders — Narcissistic, Borderline, Histrionic, Antisocial, Paranoid.

In my separation and divorce my spouse had consistently displayed obstructive and sabotaging behaviors against me.  Court and lawyers tried to downplay it.  Didn't reduce.  She had temp custody and I had alternate weekends for two years.  The best I could exit the divorce with was Shared Parenting, joint custody with equal parenting time.  (To avoid the trial, I insisted the ex give up on her expectation to be "residential parent for school purposes".  Both lawyers pooh-poohed any importance, but within weeks our kindergartner was rejected from her school due to her behaviors there.  School couldn't have done that if she was still in charge of schooling.)

Within a couple years I was back in court with Change of Circumstances court actions.  She hadn't changed, rather her behaviors hadn't changed and court was coming to recognize that.  I got custody.  I still faced her entitlement.  A couple more years and I returned for majority time which I'd been refused before.  Each of these cases took a year and a half.  This last time was two full days before the county's best (least bad) magistrate.  The decision identified that ex was disparaging father and granted majority time during the school year.  The reality was that she had never stopped disparaging, but the court finally stopped ignoring, finally stopped expecting her to become normal in post-divorce life and finally addressed that.

Things for me and our son did get better, but gradually over years.  It appears courts are reluctant to make big changes, they prefer to make incremental fixes.  That's why we always encourage separating members to get the best (least bad) temp order possible at the start because after that fixes often are small steps.  Of course, this is a generalization, your court may be better and more responsive.

Thank you for the great info. When you recommend getting as much documentation "on the record" as possible, can you give some examples? Are you referring to documented examples of my wife lashing out/being abusive?

I'm obviously not looking forward to it, but I'm prepared for the fight of my life if we get divorced. I expect her to fight just as hard, too.

This whole process sounds like it was an absolute nightmare for you. Just a nonstop battle for years - wow. I'm so glad to hear that you continued to stick with it no matter what and that it eventually paid off. That's such a shame that it took so long for that to happen, though. Did you use the same attorney for the entire process?

[livednlearned]

I can see how that would be tough to hear your son say he wishes you'd protected him sooner, but my retort to that on your behalf would be that you did everything you could to protect him.

Here's a learning moment  .

In that moment, for him, I had to recognize that it was about how he felt, not about what I did. I had to feel his pain and not try to fix it or defend myself. Sometimes our desire to defend our actions clips the wings of the feelings that must be aired and shared. Not for touchy feely reasons, but because being able to do that is the difference between what our ex spouses do (not healthy) and what we do (create bonds). And being able to say how he felt, without malice, is why he trusts me. He trusts that I will hear what he has to say about how he feels without disagreeing with those feelings. His dad could not do that.

Then later, under different circumstances, I put my actions in context when it made sense and he could be receptive to hearing a bit of my perspective and why I did or didn't do things.

That took some serious strength for you to take the high road amidst all of those allegations and respond in the way that's best for your son in the short term and long term. Were you prepared for that to happen ahead of time, or was that your natural reaction?

I kind of built the plane in mid-air. This whole thing drove me into the arms of the therapy and support industry   and I reached out for help in ways I never had before and decided I needed to learn how to make better choices. I don't think I understood emotions and how they worked very well until my divorce, and a lot of that came through therapy and also learning from friends here, and primarily about how to protect my son from parental alienation forms of abuse. The books I read, the ones I mentioned above, they were essential. I can't recommend them enough. They are just as important in terms of goals, strategy, and tactics as the legal stuff. People do win this and that in court, but can then lose the battle for the hearts and minds of their kids. There really are two showdowns happening. And you're here early, so you can start these skills with your daughter now and get a head start.

Eddy's Don't Alienate the Kids was almost life-changing. It never occurred to me that how I respond to things, versus what I say, is what mattered more with my son. How to manage my own fears, anxieties, stressors, how I responded to his dad, how I took care of myself -- my son was always watching and learning. He wasn't always listening.

I think our kids are more suspicious of what is said than most kids. They are trying to figure out what's true from other sources besides words. A lot of the stuff I learned here and from books and therapists was about living by example instead of trying to explain, justify, defend, argue, or talk my way through everything, which is sort of what I did before.

There is an upside to all this  

I met and married a wonderful guy (also with a BPDx) and could never have had this type of relationship if I hadn't learned what I did from being in a hellscape relationship.

You will be ok  

Being willing to learn new tricks and reach out for help is huge.

[worriedStepmom]

It never occurred to me that how I respond to things, versus what I say, is what mattered more with my son. How to manage my own fears, anxieties, stressors, how I responded to his dad, how I took care of myself -- my son was always watching and learning. He wasn't always listening.

Yep.  The very best thing you can do is work on your own boundaries and emotional insight and regulation.  (I needed that when I got divorced, and there were no personality disorders involved.)  When my H has to deal with his uBPDex's meltdowns, he sends SD somewhere else, tunes ex out, lets her rant until she's done ("because it's easier than trying to get her to shut up"), then asks her to leave.  I don't even let her get started - I've implemented strong boundaries to keep her nonsense away from me, my children, and my home.

My SD12 adores her dad, but she trusts me to deal with her mom more than she trusts him.  She sees me actively protecting her and my biokids.  She doesn't understand H's more subtle method - no matter how many times he explains, she thinks that he is frozen with fear in front of her mom's tantrums...just like SD feels when she's caught up in them.

[alleyesonme]

Can you elaborate a little about what you mean when you mention that how you responded to your husband was so important? For example, my wife will say things like "you're a controlling a-hole" to me in front of our daughter. I know that that's completely false, but I don't want my daughter to have any shred of doubt, so I make sure to immediately defend myself. How did you handle situations like that?

How do you currently respond?

You might already be acing this. I don't want to assume anything