Ignoring our feelings

[JNChell]

I’ve spent a lot of my life catering to how others felt and ignoring my own feelings. I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing, but it became something that I had to look at. Over time, we can begin to resent the people that we’re watching over because the courtesy isn’t returned. But we keep on looking over them. Are they ok? Do they have a blanket?

What about us? Are we ok? Do we have a blanket? Being here, and in most cases, we didn’t have a blanket. We made sure that someone else had one first.

So many of us have tried so hard to take care of people that we can’t. We’ve gone out of our way for them. We’ve isolated ourselves to make sure that we’re always there for them.

Now, we understand that that doesn’t work. We’ve ignored our feelings for a very long time. This can make us sick.

Where are you with your feelings?

[Bunny]

Hi JNChell, yes I think most of us here grew up learning to put our own needs last and cater to a parent.  A parent who should have prioritized our needs.  As an adult the way this has impacted me is in being too good a listener and never feeling like I can talk about myself with friends or family.  I’ve been in therapy with a psychiatrist who is a trauma specialist for many years so I’ve had time to work on this.  As a result I have limited my time with self-absorbed people who trigger that “active listening” behavior in me.  I work in health care and some of my interaction with patients can be triggering, particularly wealthier, entitled and self-absorbed women who probably remind me of my mother.  These people would enrage me and fortunately I’ve been able to switch my focus to a group of patients who are less triggering.  I guess what I’m saying is I’ve had better luck with avoiding people who are “takers” than I’ve had with trying to get them to change their behavior.

[JNChell]

This is interesting. You deal with this at work as well? Sister, you are carrying a load! When do you find a break from it all?

It’s very interesting to learn about new people, but it sounds like you don’t have a lot of room for yourself. Like, no room. Mentally. I don’t know how to ask you to balance things, because you deal with this all day and everyday.
I don’t know how to help.

[JNChell]

Let’s simply talk.

[Cromwell]

what you say about being there ive went through life not thinking my feelings had any value to them. Why would anyone care, so whats the point?

that sort of conditioning lead to not expressing. There is a cultural aspect that magnifies it to go along, not sure about where you are from but men dont talk about feelings, women do that, has been still is to an extent a mantra.

Here we are though, bucking the trend in 2020. Just as well because it is becoming more recognised at how harmful it is to have the ability to safely express a difficult emotional state and communicate it across.

It is a big picture problem, as far as I see it. If you recall when I told you my step son being bullied at school, he tried to get help and his feelings fell of deaf ears. They did not want to know, it ruins their narcissistic reputation as perfect teachers in their perfect school rankings - they take this stuff personally (a complaint that something isnt working) and dismiss it.

If you recall how I solved that problem, and yet at the same time I didnt, they tried to keep to that stuck pathological narrative that somehow my step son was wrong and ignored what led up to him having to sit in front of the headmaster and be made to feel thereafter the guilty one. (dont worry, it did not work)

If you recall the difficulty I had to restrain myself giving my ex with BPD a "slap" and it ruffled some feathers here. Same story, same context, in her mind obliterated that she had done anything wrong at all and in my perspective - giving her a slap would have not changed that self made narrative, it would have just been extra ammunition to support a storytale of her as victim.

The kid who bullied my step son was guided into this pathway too, the only difference is that his beating might not have fixed the mentality, it did keep him away not to want a round two, problem solved.

So this story leads me to highlight a quandary, what is the point in expressing feelings when it is directed to narcissistic people who lack the empathy to either care or value what has to be said? Violence doesnt even change it, a physical expression for lack of a verbal one being effective. So what does work? For me I adapted to know not to waste my time, feelings were secondary to pragmatic options. Very much led to seeing life generally as a place of trouble shooting, problem solving, with an absence of "how are you feeling" that phrase has been absent to the point of near extinction, conditioned out.

Yet, all said of the past, here we are now JNChell. Last few years ive made up for it, a bit of "heres how I feel" on roids. Finding a balance, but it has been healthy to do so. How do you feel about that? Great topic btw.

[JNChell]

Cromwell. I can relate to feeling like my feelings had no value. I’m able to see that my feelings meant f**k all to my parents. This should be very clear and obvious to me, but I have a ways to go. I did some falling down last night. It was pretty awful. I’m not as far along as I thought I was. It’s ok, I suppose. But it is disappointing.

You’re right. How could we have expressed our feelings when they were ignored? It’s hard to wrap my head around how adults are capable of abuse and neglect towards a small child.

I agree with you on how your stepson stood his ground. Bullying is a severe issue that is escalating. It’s due to parenting. Generational. People who don’t get it are lost.

How do I feel about what you’ve said? I’m very much in agreement with you. What really stands out is how you and I can relate on our feelings being ignored as children.

[Cromwell]

The trouble here in relating is a word that I suspect is less psychology more sociology territory. "culture". The prevailing one im sure you have heard "kids are to be seen and not heard", my parents borrowed from that heavily, I think the more observant theme of this is I recall most often feeling as if I wasnt talking to mother but to grandmother and same with dad - it was as if he was the mouthpiece for granddad.

I think the contrast is huge to when I brought my step son up and he told me "kids rule" when he was the age your son is now.

Now if we follow the line of reasoning that parenting styles can get carried on from generation to generation, try to contrast todays generation with that of my grandparents who lived as children in ww2 and hyperinflation. Less talking about feelings and more just living through trauma, hoping to survive. Survival is where this is all at, very important to survive, they adapted and became what they were as a result of that.

Now we see a generation today that has lacked the comparative hardship, and find it hard to stay indoors for part of the day. ive seen teenagers crying on the bus on two occassions. They fall apart and havent had the adversity. My step son is doing great although he is 20 now. I think I made lots of mistakes with him but did many things right, I hope I found the two balance themselves out, I have no major concerns about him. He has sometimes complained to me about how ive treated him in the past and I had to apologise and explained to him I was wrong and had repeated how I was brought up. Im glad he has that comms with me as much as I was able to apologise to him.

[JNChell]

I’m trying to understand what you mean by “culture” when it comes to this subject. Do mean by it being a multigenerational and ingrained way of thinking? If so, that’s an interesting take that I’ve never taken into consideration. That must’ve been a very traumatic time. Fighting over food and work for a day. I wonder if we’re starting to see a glimpse of that now.

Have you been tough on your SS? I don’t think that that is necessarily a bad thing as long as the teachings stayed in bounds. It sounds like you can talk to him, and he you and you’re able to open up to him. Does this community help with that?

[Turkish]

I learned to resent people caring about me though I've gotten better. I likely took some of this into my BPD relationship which was invalidating. I had an underlying air that I didn't need anybody, while at the same time trying to take care of others.

My mom first noticed it shortly after she adopted me at 2.4 years of age. I had fallen and skinned my knee at a garage sale. Instead of seeking her out, I was crying quietly on the grass with by back turned to everybody. I was hard enough that I could self soothe, but I did it by shutting everyone else out. I didn't need anybody!

Deep down, I still feel like my feelings don't count.  I try my best not to telegraph this to the kids because I want them to be better than me.  Even deep down, I know that they love and care about me though. Of that, I have no doubt. 

[JNChell]

Turkish, I have a real hard time accepting help from others as well. I think I made progress though. I called my best friend and explained to him how I was feeling the other night. He talked to me. He didn’t judge me. He understood. We are polar opposites when it comes to our feelings. I should say, we’ve been through different things.

Turkish, your feelings do count. The kids will be kids, but just wait until you get that sincere “Thank you”.

S5 was hugging and kissing my cheeks the whole week. At times he wanted something, at other times he just wanted to cuddle and watch a movie. At other times he was just hyper and flipping all over the place.

On the day my son was born, I made a promise to him and myself that nothing I knew from childhood would repeat. It ended there. Maybe we can telegraph in subtle ways, ya know?

We have our life experiences. The beatings, the seizure, the skinned knee and keeping it to yourself. Maybe you wanted your Mother to tend to it at such a young age. Your natural mom. At such a young age, you were turning to something, not away. Baby children aren’t independent enough to turn away when we’re bleeding.

Your children love you. You risen above what you went through. Take it farther, Turkish. “Oh you bastard. I PLEASE READin hate pikies.” Something like that.

[I Am Redeemed]

I was taught, in so many ways, from a young age that my feelings were not as important as others' feelings.

I was taught to suppress my feelings in case it made someone else mad.

I was taught that other people's feelings were bigger and took precedence.

I was taught that there was no room for my feelings.

I was taught that I was in the background while other people took center stage.

I was taught that my value was in helping others soothe and manage their feelings, while I should not expect that someone would be there to do the same for me.

As a result, I felt (feel) responsible for the feelings of others. If this means that I have to loosen my boundaries or not set one at all, then that is what I go to. If I talk about how I feel, and someone else brings up something that hurts them, I go into "problem solve" mode and feel useless if I can't come up with a solution to their problem.

It took a long time for me to realize that I have feelings that are valid, that my voice was silenced just when it was beginning to develop, and that is a very sad and tragic thing that no one in my life ever placed importance on me and what I had to say or think or feel. Everyone in my life more or less used me for their own purposes one way or another.

However, I have since realized that at some point, I allowed that to happen, mostly because I didn't know any better. It has taken some time, and I still have a long way to go, but I am in the process of learning that what I feel and felt years ago does matter and more than that, it has influenced many decisions and choices I have made, whether I knew it or not. Much of my decisions have been influenced by how I feel, and much of that has been an emotional flashback. Even when I thought I was taking care of others or putting their needs first, really, in the background, I was attempting to manage my own discomfort and that was the driving factor of my behavior.

The feelings are always there. Even if you don't consciously acknowledge them, they influence and drive your decisions. Caretaking others and going to great lengths to prove our love is really a reflection of our own feelings of rejection and worthlessness. We feel loved when we feel special and useful. We do not easily reconcile the worthiness of love with assertiveness for our own needs. It feels selfish, as it has been ingrained in us to feel that way. It is only when we can accept that we have just as much right to feel things as others do that we can learn to forgive ourselves for the emotions themselves. Then we can extend the grace to ourselves that we so freely offer to others.

[Turkish]

It is only when we can accept that we have just as much right to feel things as others do that we can learn to forgive ourselves for the emotions themselves. Then we can extend the grace to ourselves that we so freely offer to others.

Great stuff 

[JNChell]

IAR. I’m sorry. It’s just a crappy way to try to grow up in. I was “taught” to be careful with my parents feelings as well. But which one? Which one am I really avoiding today/tonight.

IAR, what happened when you went to your parents with your feelings?

[I Am Redeemed]

Great stuff  

Thanks, Turkish

IAR. I’m sorry. It’s just a crappy way to try to grow up in. I was “taught” to be careful with my parents feelings as well. But which one? Which one am I really avoiding today/tonight.

IAR, what happened when you went to your parents with your feelings?

JNChell,

My situation is probably a little different than others' here. My mother tried to commit suicide when I was 2. She shot herself, and subsequently had a stroke. She was never the same after that, so she was not really a caregiver for me anymore.

My older sister (twenty years older) stepped in as my primary caregiver, and I do not have many memories of trying to express my feelings to her or to my father (her stepfather) mostly because most of my childhood was punctuated by their loud, verbal (and on at least one occasion, physical) arguments.

I always felt like the conflict in my family took precedence. I stayed under the radar, if you know what I mean. I wanted nobody's target sights to land on me.

Once, when I was twelve, I do remember trying to talk to my dad about something that was really upsetting me. I remember telling him how sad I felt, and his response was "well, look what your mom did (referring to her suicide attempt) and how do you think that made me feel?"

No help, in other words. His pain and hardship trumped mine.

So I stopped trying to ask for help.

[JNChell]

I had no idea. I didn’t read your backstory. I’m sorry. I understand the noise. Being scared. Not really even knowing what peace was, but wanting it. I tried to stay under the radar, but I always got drug out from underneath the table. I’ve learned to be much quieter...shh.

Your father’s response was not ok, but you know that. I’m not taking away from you and what is real, but it sounds like he couldn’t deal with what happened, step up and be dad. It was about him. That’s my dad.

When my mom was dying, he did everything he could to make it about him. Looking back, I didn’t love my mom and had no good reason, but I respected her on her deathbed. Dad was nothing but an obscene monkey wrench in her being allowed to die in as much peace as she could have. I believe that man wrecked that woman. Maybe they were both disturbed. Doesn’t matter now. Their actions say they were both not ok to raise children.

[JNChell]

Were you home for the gunshot?

[I Am Redeemed]

Were you home for the gunshot?

Yes. It happened in the middle of the night. Two days after she was released from inpatient treatment. No one suspected a thing; they had people over for dinner and she was dressed up and acted happy. Then in the middle of the night she went to the basement and shot herself.

I don't have conscious memories of it, but my sister said she took me with her to the hospital and it kept her calm to have me to take care of.

I have processed this recently with emdr. This was the root of my feelings of abandonment.

My dad never was a "real" dad to me, before or after this. I personally think he had untreated anxiety/depression and C-PTSD due to his own parents dying when he was 2 and being raised by his older siblings in rural Arkansas during the Depression.

After my mom did what she did, my older sister took over as my primary caregiver. History repeating, sort of. She and my dad fought all the time and I never felt safe at home. You never knew what would set Dad off or when the yelling would start.

[JNChell]

IAR, I’m sincerely sorry that you went through that as a child. I knew that things were bad for you, but I didn’t know about this. The history does repeat in many ways. Sounds like your dad was pretty absent even when he was there. The yelling, or anticipating it as a child. You know, yelling and screaming by itself is terrifying for a child. The other stuff is just sadistic.

How are things with you and your sister? Sounds like there’s a tight bond there.

[I Am Redeemed]

IAR, I’m sincerely sorry that you went through that as a child. I knew that things were bad for you, but I didn’t know about this. The history does repeat in many ways. Sounds like your dad was pretty absent even when he was there. The yelling, or anticipating it as a child. You know, yelling and screaming by itself is terrifying for a child. The other stuff is just sadistic.

How are things with you and your sister? Sounds like there’s a tight bond there.

Yes, he was absent. He did not know how to be a parent. He was NC with his other two (grown) kids almost my whole life, until his daughter showed back up about ten years ago to make amends with him because she was dying of cancer. He never repaired things with his son, though I did find a phone number for him in dad's things after he passed. I tried to contact my half brother for the first time in my life to let him know Dad passed, but I never got an answer.

My sister and I do not have a tight bond. She is actually one of the reasons I started posting on PSI. It took me over a year on these boards before I recognized that she has some BPD-ish traits, not enough for a diagnosis by any means, but enough to make for a difficult relationship.

My sister is the one who used silent treatment on me as a kid (remember, she was twenty years older than me, so she was an adult). She has rigid beliefs and exhibits little empathy for others in situations she doesn't understand. She slandered me to CPS when my kids got taken away due to my abusive r/s with BPD ex, and she shared lots of information with them that they have no business knowing. She wound up with legal guardianship of my five oldest kids; CPS pushed the judge to grant her that while I gave birth to S4 and they made no move to remove him from my care. I have had custody of him since he was born, but she got my others. She has also engaged in alienation tactics, teaching my kids to call her Mom and me by my first name. My kids are afraid of her temper and her tendencies to shame and blame, which I also experienced as a kid.

My sister is one of those people who always thinks she knows what is best for everyone and she runs over boundaries. I recently found out she has my journal from when I was in treatment ten years ago. She's had it for five years (long story) and didn't even offer it back- in fact, she told me she plans to let my kids read it when they turn eighteen.

So maybe that gives you an indication of how I got to be the kind of person who ignores my feelings because I was never taught they matter.

[JNChell]

IAR, I apologize for assuming. I was way off base. When I see how she reacted the night that your mom did what she did, and then what she did/is doing to you when it comes to your kids, that she is a very rigid and controlling person. I’m sorry for not reading back on your time here. The whole journal thing is really something. The whole first name thing is really something. She has zero empathy if she has taken this route. Zero empathy. She may be BPD’ish, but she is most definitely diagnosable for a Personality Disorder. Just my two cents. I mean, who does these things? Did your mom prop her up as the golden child? She also sounds like an opportunist. Someone that is always waiting to swoop in, even if it makes things worse, to manipulate and paint a false picture so she is always “on top”, with no regard to how others are feeling or doing. I’ll say it again. Zero empathy. The empathy that she might exhibit is for show. It’s simply manipulation. She has none. Kind of makes the blood boil.

Yes. Your post gave me an understanding of why you have ignored your feelings in the past. You know, we try to use a lot of words of endearment and the like around here because all of this is through text, and the emotions that we feel aren’t easy to get across. I’m feeling for you right here and now. Wherever you are. You know, I don’t understand how these things happen. The one thing that I do know is that the human condition, as a whole, isn’t well. I don’t think that we were meant to be this divisive and greedy. But it’s playing out now.

Thank you for sharing what you have here. It has helped me and I know that many others are reading it as well. Maybe it will prompt them to post. Yes, LURKERS, talking about you.

[I Am Redeemed]

IAR, I apologize for assuming. I was way off base

No apologies necessary, JNChell. Most people would assume the same. In fact, it is hard to see the dysfunction of my sister unless you know the details. That is what is the most maddening of it, because on the surface, she looks like a put-together, healthy person. Stable. Same job for twenty years, same marriage, same house until they sold it and upgraded a little over two years ago, same church for fifteen years. No drugs, no alcohol, no abusive relationships. My dysfunction was glaring in comparison.

Yes, she is an opportunist. Her "role" is the Martyr. She also finds her own self-worth in taking disadvantaged children (me, my kids) and "taking care of them". She finds her value in her ability to show off how smart, talented, well-behaved children she can mold. She did it with me and she's doing it now with my kids. In fact, she devalues them when they show signs of being less than her expectations. The last visit I had with them (six weeks ago) she told me she was about ready to give S8 back to me. Why? Because she took him to my daughters' dance lesson and he wrote "Dance is stupid" on the blackboard in the hallway.

I don't know if she was the GC or not. I do know she is a perfectionist and always exceled in everything, and I felt like I had to live up to what she had accomplished (smart, A student, fourth in her class, graduated with honors, etc.) I don't know much about how my family was before I came along, or what my mom was like before the "incident". She was never the same. She had a stroke shortly after the SA and it left her permanently disabled. She was 43. I'll be 43 this year, and I never realized just how young that is.

When I read what I have written here, I feel ashamed for blathering on when I know that many, you included, had it so much worse as children. That's interesting to me, because it highlights what I said above. I feel shame talking about what has caused me pain in the past because I feel like I don't have the right to complain when it could have been much worse. Yet, if someone else were to say they were ashamed to talk about things that happened because other people had it worse, I would encourage them and tell them that their feelings matter, their pain matters.

Funny how it is so much easier to extend kindness and empathy to others.

[JNChell]

 
IAR, there is no shame in this. I understand what you mean, but there is no shame here. You’re a good woman coming out of a bad situation that was showered daily with shame. You experienced terrifying things. You know, I remember making a comment here that if I ever needed an army of fighters, I’d come here to recruit.

I don’t know if you’ve ever read up on Covert Narcissism. It might help you navigate your sister a bit more. Altruistic Narcissism (the martyr) might help as well.

Hey, if she wants to turn S8 over to you, take him. I imagine as they get older, she will become uninterested in them. She might keep her hooks in one or two, but she won’t be capable of controlling adult and maturing minds.

From a societal POV, I can see what you mean. Simply how something looks, and someone there to take advantage of it. There is no empathy involved, no trying to understand, no really looking at things. I’m not just talking about your sister, I’m also talking about the laws and how they operate. This isn’t the forum for that, but I should mention it.

I’m 43, and yes it’s still a young age. It’s hard to look at it that way because I feel like I’ve wasted my time on folly for so long. I was repressing everything for decades. I simply didn’t know because my home life was my normal.