I Probably want limited contact after divorce.

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

These are all great comments. For background, mediation has been attempted and failed.  The mediator actually took me aside and recommended to file.  I took too long heeding that advice already.

I am working on my counter.  I truly can't accept ROFR - it's just going to be used to a negative effect. I have also tried to trim as many possible uses of "mutual consent" as well as the phrase "reasonable."  Because in my heart, after decades of experience, I know those phrases can be manipulated.

Now, if I can find ways to include the phrases, but make them ineffectual from a controlling point of view, that might pass.

I am tempted to think that the court's base language, coming from lots of times that parents aren't capable of getting along, might be the best fit after all.  I just hope that, as a dad especially, I get an equal presence in the parenting role.

[SamwizeGamgee]

These are all great comments. For background, mediation has been attempted and failed.  The mediator actually took me aside and recommended to file.  I took too long heeding that advice already.

I am working on my counter.  I truly can't accept ROFR - it's just going to be used to a negative effect. I have also tried to trim as many possible uses of "mutual consent" as well as the phrase "reasonable."  Because in my heart, after decades of experience, I know those phrases can be manipulated.

Now, if I can find ways to include the phrases, but make them ineffectual from a controlling point of view, that might pass.

I am tempted to think that the court's base language, coming from lots of times that parents aren't capable of getting along, might be the best fit after all.  I just hope that, as a dad especially, I get an equal presence in the parenting role.

[formflier]

As to adding phrases.

She wants a ROFR and you want phrases. 

Is it effective for her for everyone to be saying yes?

As in  "Of course I'm saying yes to ROFR and you will say yest to my request as well..right?"

Unfortunately many pwBPD want people to say yes to them and seem to relish saying no to what others want...regardless of what the ask is.

You know her best...what do you think?

Best,

FF

[defogging]

Samwize - I think you should file too, and get the court process moving.  What worked for me was filing, having a good lawyer, and the courts forcing an outcome.  I never tried a simple mediation process without an attorney representing me.  I knew from all the late night circular conversations that we would never accomplish anything.  It was the court setting dates and our attorneys advising us on what a judge would rule that moved it along for me.

Regarding phrases like "reasonable" - they can mean a lot, or not that much.  Just pay attention to when and how they can be manipulated by a PD.  My agreement reads that the kids will have phone access to the other parent "during reasonable hours and for reasonable duration".  That still gives me control when it's on my time.  I tell them they can call mom anytime, but if it's time for dinner, homework, or lights out, the call ends.  Honestly, just them knowing they have the freedom to call her anytime limits it, they rarely call her.  On the flip side, if your agreement says something like "parent can take the kids out to lunch a reasonable number of times each week" then you can bet every single day of your parenting time they will take your child out of school for a two hour lunch.  In that situation you have no control.  I don't have that language but my ex has found numerous ways to schedule doctor appointments on my time and turn them into three hour visits to the park, eating lunch at a restaurant, and then finally a doctor visit.  Like I wrote above, my ex weaves her way in even without ROFR in the agreement.

I found that the standard language really does work well, all things considered.  The courts have been there, done that a million times over - at least in my jurisdiction.  I've also found times where we were discussing something, I went back to review the court language and found that I was able to just make a decision without my ex's input.  Case in point - a recent discussion of health insurance for next year.  My options are cheap, her options are expensive.  I sent her my proposal that I keep the kids under my insurance and she agreed but countered with going to a more expensive plan.  I reviewed our parenting plan language and found that we only need to agree on which parent will provide coverage.  I politely replied that I will provide coverage for the kids and will choose the plan that I think fits best.

Be careful taking advice on agreement language from anyone who hasn't tried to "co-parent" with a PD before.  It's truly a different beast once you're on the other side.  PDs are slick, and find ways to get through language in order to maximize their time and manipulation with the kids.  Don't get too cute with language.  Please get yourself good representation with a smart, proactive lawyer who isn't afraid to go to bat for you, but who will also listen to compromise and look for the best possible solution.

Life is sweet on the other side, friend.  Just gotta get there.

[SamwizeGamgee]

Thank you all so much.
I think in my situation, I found a lawyer who is a good fit.  She is not prone to getting into emotional rows with folks.  That's good to know I've got that in my corner.  Like you say, I have been through enough late night circular arguments and interrogations to to know how important it is to stay above the emotional baiting.

I had a great experience a few weeks ago, where the STBX sat down with her laptop computer, drew me in, and was opening up with "what do you mean, by x? Do you really think y? and so on.

I said that interrogations are no longer an option, since we are getting a divorce anyway, and I just didn't engage.  Wow, that felt good.  I don't have to play in the mud.

As for legal language, I have been through my counter-offer many times. I often find new and interesting ways it could be used against me - or changed into something livable with a word or two different.  It's like defusing a warhead on the movies - don't cut the wrong wire first!

[defogging]

As for legal language, I have been through my counter-offer many times. I often find new and interesting ways it could be used against me - or changed into something livable with a word or two different.  It's like defusing a warhead on the movies - don't cut the wrong wire first!

And the kicker is that the PD will always find a way to manipulate the agreement, but in ways you never thought of beforehand.  In my agreement it is crystal clear who will claim the kids on their taxes.  This year, my tax return got kicked back by the IRS because someone else had claimed the kids. IRS is still investigating.  My lawyer advised me that the IRS could decide in her favor, but no worries we can just sue her in County court.  Should work out, but still a royal pain. 

They will also switch tactics on you.  Funny timing on this thread because it hadn't happened before now. My exPDw just abused the phone call thing tonight and kept my oldest on the phone past bedtime.  D10 was distraught after the phone call about how she missed mom so much, and it was a total disaster trying to get the kids to bed.  I assume it was a guilt trip of some sort that the kids had to be with me over Thanksgiving instead of mom.

Examples like this are why I wrote what I wrote last night about taking advice from anyone who hasn't tried to co-parent with a PD after divorce.  You don't really get it until you've been there.  When you're married and living with them, you're the target.  Once you divorce and limit contact, the kids become the target and it's a completely different game.  It was very frustrating tonight to recognize that my ex was manipulating my daughter, and to think how pathetic it is that an adult would mess with a 10 year old's mind like that.  All you can do is support the kids, try to prevent the PD from affecting them too much, but in reality there's only so much you can do.  The PDs play their games and we try to mitigate the damage.  The sad truth is that no amount of language in an agreement will make everything work out perfectly.

[formflier]

And the kicker is that the PD will always find a way to manipulate the agreement, but in ways you never thought of beforehand.  In my agreement it is crystal clear who will claim the kids on their taxes.  This year, my tax return got kicked back by the IRS because someone else had claimed the kids. IRS is still investigating.  My lawyer advised me that the IRS could decide in her favor, but no worries we can just sue her in County court.  Should work out, but still a royal pain. 

 

Which is an example of why a crystal clear agreement with automatic consequences is critical.

Such as "X will claim kids on taxes.  If Y claims kids on taxes, y will pay back tax benefit and also any and all CPA, lawyer and legal fees incurred."   

That way there is no argument about making you whole.

Best,

FF

[defogging]

Which is an example of why a crystal clear agreement with automatic consequences is critical.

Such as "X will claim kids on taxes.  If Y claims kids on taxes, y will pay back tax benefit and also any and all CPA, lawyer and legal fees incurred."   

That way there is no argument about making you whole.

Best,

FF

That's not how it works though.  The agreements lay out your rights as a parent, they say what you can and can't do.  Consequences for violating the agreement are already covered by the statutory laws in your jurisdiction, they're not spelled out in the agreement.

The point of what I'm saying is that no matter what is in the agreement the PD will constantly try to find a way around it, or just blatantly ignore the agreement as is the case with my tax situation.  You'll get surprised somehow, and then next month it will be something else.  The best thing you can do is have the big issues covered, and expect to still deal with a lot of small headaches.

[formflier]

That's not how it works though.  

Are automatic consequences not allowed to be in agreements in your state?

Best,

FF

[CoherentMoose]

Examples like this are why I wrote what I wrote last night about taking advice from anyone who hasn't tried to co-parent with a PD after divorce.  You don't really get it until you've been there.  When you're married and living with them, you're the target.  Once you divorce and limit contact, the kids become the target and it's a completely different game.  It was very frustrating tonight to recognize that my ex was manipulating my daughter, and to think how pathetic it is that an adult would mess with a 10 year old's mind like that.  All you can do is support the kids, try to prevent the PD from affecting them too much, but in reality there's only so much you can do.  The PDs play their games and we try to mitigate the damage.  The sad truth is that no amount of language in an agreement will make everything work out perfectly.

In our case, my fiancé' is still the target, he's just using the children as a conduit to strike at her.  His manipulations are impacting the children.  For a school report, her son was asked to described things at home that make him happy.  He did not put anything in the report about what makes him happy at his mom's house.  Only things at his dad's house.  When asked why, he said his dad would read the report and yell at him for anything that made him happy at our house.  The daughter states her dad askes her if she upset her mom during the time at our house.  If she says she had a good time, she gets scolded.  Sad.  CoMo

[defogging]

Are automatic consequences not allowed to be in agreements in your state?

Best,

FF

There's no point in adding consequences even if they are allowed, they're already covered by laws that are in place.  Family courts aren't interested in reinventing the wheel.  That's why you don't see agreements that disallow abandoning the kids at a park, drowning them in the bathtub, or driving without proper child seats.  It's already covered elsewhere.

It wouldn't matter anyways.  When the PD violates the orders, they're rarely caught or punished unless it's glaringly obvious.  Different versions of reality are claimed by the PD, their lawyer obfuscates the issue and engages in doublespeak, and clouds the whole thing.  My ex has done things that would look very bad for her if the courts saw the reality, but by the time the lawyers argue it out her side has confused everything so much there are no repercussions.  At a certain point you realize it's no longer worth $300/hr to come away with little consequences for the other side, so you learn to let some things go. 

Speaking to my tax example, I'm certain if she gets caught she will just claim her accountant made a mistake and file an amended return.  No consequences for her, money spent on lawyers for me.  If I had spent more time and money to put severe consequences on that behavior, she would have just violated the court orders a different way.  So like I said, make sure the big issues are covered and expect some unexpected headaches elsewhere.  We could pontificate all day on the perfect agreement language, but in the end you'd just spend a fortune on legal fees and still have to deal with a PD and the problems they cause.

[formflier]

There's no point in adding consequences even if they are allowed, they're already covered by laws that are in place.  Family courts aren't interested in reinventing the wheel.  

 but by the time the lawyers argue it out her side has confused everything so much there are no repercussions.  At a certain point you realize it's no longer worth $300/hr to come away with little consequences for the other side, so you learn to let some things go. 

 We could pontificate all day on the perfect agreement language, but in the end you'd just spend a fortune on legal fees and still have to deal with a PD and the problems they cause.

Hey...I'm not trying to be argumentative with you. 

My understanding of many other members stories that were "successful" or "more successful" in their divorces is that they put something that mattered in the decree and also a time that it was supposed to be done and also a consequence if it did not happen.

To me, it sounds like this might be helpful for you in this situation.  Especially going forward.  Perhaps this year you let it slide in exchange for a modification that says you get it in the future and if it doesn't happen all your fees get covered.

The fee part is critical because otherwise you have to worry about the math you presented..spending big lawyer money to chase small returns.

Best,

FF

[ForeverDad]

While what some states allow or not may vary, one of the reasons to include consequences if at all possible is to reduce the possibility that if a violation is taken back to court that the judge will have before him/her on paper precisely what the consequences should be.  If none were there, then the judge would be more likely to use his/her discretion.  Which, without prior guidance on paper, it might be, "I'll let this go this time but next time you obey the order."  Essentially a mere finger wagging.   Domestic court can often default to letting bygones be bygones which only enables more boundary pushing by an acting-out disordered person.

As LnL sometimes phases it, "You want to make it less likely the ex will keep getting permitted more bites of the apple."

[defogging]

My understanding of many other members stories that were "successful" or "more successful" in their divorces is that they put something that mattered in the decree and also a time that it was supposed to be done and also a consequence if it did not happen.

Agreed, that's exactly my point.  Cover the stuff that matters and don't mind-screw yourself and think you have to cover every unseen scenario in the future.  The PD will find a way around the language somehow...sometimes it's a big deal and sometimes it isn't.

Think of it as another strategy.  Get out quick, fast, and cheap.  Then budget it in that you'll have to spend $1k every so often to keep them in check, it's easier to do that once your finances are under your control.

[defogging]

While what some states allow or not may vary, one of the reasons to include consequences if at all possible is to reduce the possibility that if a violation is taken back to court that the judge will have before him/her on paper precisely what the consequences should be.  If none were there, then the judge would be more likely to use his/her discretion.  Which, without prior guidance on paper, it might be, "I'll let this go this time but next time you obey the order."  Essentially a mere finger wagging.   Domestic court can often default to letting bygones be bygones which only enables more boundary pushing by an acting-out disordered person.

As LnL sometimes phases it, "You want to make it less likely the ex will keep getting permitted more bites of the apple."

I agree with this, it could be useful to have consequences in the agreement for the big issues you see coming.  But, I would add a big IF to that.  In my case, my ex is so slick at playing behind the scenes and maintaining plausible deniability that it's almost impossible to bring evidence to court.  She's been playing a ton of games with the kids, and with me, but always seems to have a reason for it that doesn't point the finger at her.  So, my viewpoint is IF you could actually prove that the other party did something that violated the agreement then having consequences in the agreement would be worthwhile.

This is the reason why I'm cautioning Samwize (and others) to not get too cute about language.  Cover the big issues that you know about.  Expect the unexpected, and realize you'll likely spend more money on things you didn't see coming.  Don't spend $100k now on the perfect agreement that could cost you $50k over the long run.

[ForeverDad]

defogging has a good point, especially for the parenting and custodial issues.  So much of that is hard to clearly categorize as either good or bad, or how good or how bad.

I'm thinking consequences are easier to specify on the financial impact issues.  For example, selling the house, or handling issues for one spouse to exit the house and the other to assume ownership and financing.  Consequences are appropriate for what to do when an ex...

...fails to timely vacate the residence
...fails to timely sign realtor paperwork
...fails to timely sign quitclaim deed or sale papers
...fails to timely obtain loan or mortgage
...fails to timely {whatever}

Another approach can work if you will end up owing the other $$$ when the marital assets/debts are split.  You can specify that a certain substantial financial amount will be held in escrow with your lawyer that is released only after compliance with the terms of the settlement.  Holding that sum as Leverage for compliance works much better than an official court order (which many courts are reluctant to enforce, at least no quickly).  Our ex-spouses may be disordered but most of them know the value of currency whatever nation we live in.

[defogging]

In our case, my fiancé' is still the target, he's just using the children as a conduit to strike at her.  His manipulations are impacting the children.  For a school report, her son was asked to described things at home that make him happy.  He did not put anything in the report about what makes him happy at his mom's house.  Only things at his dad's house.  When asked why, he said his dad would read the report and yell at him for anything that made him happy at our house.  The daughter states her dad askes her if she upset her mom during the time at our house.  If she says she had a good time, she gets scolded.  Sad.  CoMo

CoMo, that sucks that those kids are dealing with that.  Sounds like a terrible situation for them.  I actually think in your case that the kids are now the target.  Not the target of blame, but the target of manipulation.  PDs have no sense of self and try to enmesh with someone else to feel whole.  I won't try to explain in depth because I won't get it quite right, but I think if you search those terms you will find some very valuable reading.

What you describe is very similar to what is happening with my daughter.  I read between the lines of what D10 says to me and I see her being turned against me.  Luckily, I've retained a great relationship with my daughter (but I'm not saying that your fiancé doesn't have a great relationship with her kids) and can see that the behavior coming from mom isn't really against me, it's just a terribly unhealthy way for mom to bond with her daughter.  Mom needs to be seen as the best, loved the most, and it doesn't matter how it affects other people.

It sucks, big time, when you see how the kids are being manipulated to choose a favorite.  I think the best thing you can do (and all you can do) is teach the kids to think for themselves, be independent, give them some free space to just be themselves, and always be there to support them.

[formflier]

 In my case, my ex is so slick at playing behind the scenes and maintaining plausible deniability that it's almost impossible to bring evidence to court.  She's been playing a ton of games with the kids, and with me, but always seems to have a reason for it that doesn't point the finger at her.  

OK...my curiosity is getting the better of me.

Can you give an example or two?

I would certainly agree that with custody and turnovers that you wouldn't want to "nitpick" and be going to court or trying to enforce an agreement  when the issues is a couple of days here and there.

That being said, if the parenting time per the agreement is 50/50 and the actual time is 25/75 (for plausibly deniable reasons..to a PD that is), an automatic "make up time" clause is likely going to be helpful.  

Plus, perhaps the agreement actually stipulates how time will be counted (leave it up to a pd to come up with "alternate counting rules"...oh..."that doesn't count because...")

Perhaps a larger point I saw in your post to highlight and agree with.

Get finances in order and continue to budget that "maintenance" of the divorce will periodically cost you.

Oh...and I had another thought.  defogging doesn't seem especially crushed by a person with a pd acting like a person with a pd.  Perhaps having some areas where they can believe they are "sticking it to you" and having victories is a useful thing, especially if it really doesn't bother you.

Best,

FF

[defogging]

Can you give an example or two?

Here are some - My ex's usual tactic is what I call "selective miscommunication".  She keeps me in the dark on things concerning the kids, then I look like a fool because I didn't know appointments changed, an event got canceled, etc.  She tells the kids different things than she tells me, usually to paint herself as a victim or as the more caring parent.  She gets the kids excited about activities that would be during my parenting time, offers to assist with driving them, then is unreliable about actually doing that, so I have to pull the kids out early or cancel the activity altogether and they get mad at me.  She scheduled a birthday party at her house, told me I wasn't allowed to come when I asked about it, and told my daughter that I didn't want to come.  She fired a therapist, denied it, then kept telling the therapist and me/her lawyer different stories.  Eventually the therapist said she couldn't continue working with us if both parents weren't on the same page.  Lots of fun stuff  , plenty of PA tactics, all in violation of the standard language in our parenting plan, yet it's nearly impossible to prove to the courts.

You mentioned quite a bit about parenting time and withholding the kids, thankfully that hasn't been an issue since we've had a written agreement.  I think withholding the kids is something that can be more easily proven through documentation, and is why my ex hasn't tried it.  My ex is skilled at working behind the scenes so she won't get busted doing something egregious.  I think the tax thing happened because she figured she could pin it on her accountant if I called her out on it.  She's very concerned about public image, so she tries to make arrangements through verbal conversation (which I don't allow) or pick her battles where people won't really see it.

Oh...and I had another thought.  defogging doesn't seem especially crushed by a person with a pd acting like a person with a pd.  Perhaps having some areas where they can believe they are "sticking it to you" and having victories is a useful thing, especially if it really doesn't bother you.

I don't take any of it personally anymore, I know it's her rudimentary self defense mechanisms that make her act this way.  I feel sorry for her more than anything, because from the outside I now see how she drives people away and can't stop doing it.   I've accepted the reality that I'm going to have to react to drama making from time to time, and I limit it by having very little contact with her.  I only allow communication in writing, and if she wants to start a fight I utilize the agreement to put a quick stop to it.  Plus, the big items that would really affect the kids or cost me a lot of money are well covered in the agreement.

That's good insight about letting them have little victories.  My attorney advised me of that during the divorce.  She had a few big losses early on, and he advised me to let one particular thing go so she could have a small victory.  It certainly helped calm things down.  I still utilize that tactic and weigh decisions based on what I want her to win, so she can feel like she's in control of some things, when in reality it can be an issue that I don't give a hoot about.

[defogging]

Perhaps having some areas where they can believe they are "sticking it to you" and having victories is a useful thing, especially if it really doesn't bother you.

One more thought on this.  Another very useful tool in the toolbox is to not interfere with your ex's public image so they remain happy with the current situation.  I've found that if I let some things go to help her to look like a great parent then she is more stable and less likely to want to make wholesale changes. 

I think this is something us Non-PDs get caught up in sometimes - wanting vindication by proving your ex wrong.  It's certainly justifiable, and I've been through a lot of those situations where I had to listen to her tell people about the great things she did while I knew that it was actually me that made it happen.  It used to make me mad, but I've learned to just let her do it because it is best for the kids.  In the past when I called her out, she usually reacted by wanting to change the situation - move, get new schools, new job, etc.  I don't want the kids to go through that anymore so I just let my ex paint the image that she is an awesome parent to her kids.

[defogging]

defogging has a good point, especially for the parenting and custodial issues.  So much of that is hard to clearly categorize as either good or bad, or how good or how bad.

I'm thinking consequences are easier to specify on the financial impact issues.  For example, selling the house, or handling issues for one spouse to exit the house and the other to assume ownership and financing.  Consequences are appropriate for what to do when an ex...

...fails to timely vacate the residence
...fails to timely sign realtor paperwork
...fails to timely sign quitclaim deed or sale papers
...fails to timely obtain loan or mortgage
...fails to timely {whatever}

Excellent point, you were able to express it more clearly than I did.  Much easier to add consequences to items that have an objective goal, like a date or a dollar amount.  On items related to parenting it's much more difficult to prove something was done wrong, so I wouldn't recommend putting a ton of effort into consequences around that, or on anything that is clearly covered by statutory law.

So...after our long digression from the ROFR issue (sorry SG!), I think if SG's stbx is feeling very strongly about that he should think about some parameters around ROFR that he can easily live with.  Maybe add some language that would make it a non-factor for you - number of times per month for babysitters/relatives to watch the kids, it's not applicable in a last minute situation, consequences if parent chooses a babysitter and doesn't notify other parent, kids age out of it at a certain point, etc.  Could be an opportunity for her to have a victory while the language in the agreement makes it a moot point for you.  Then, while you're working on that victory for her, add in something else that seems minor but is important to you.

[formflier]

so I just let my ex paint the image that she is an awesome parent to her kids.

I've had some success in doing this in my home.  Sort of a version of "the things that matter...should matter BIGTIME, for all the rest...let it go...COMPLETELY..."

Example:  My wife somehow believes that religion fixes everything.  If you "just" believe..."just" this.."just" that...the magic of whitewash comes out and it never happened and you can ride off into happily ever after. 

Except she does it right...everyone else "doesn't believe" and if they would "just" listen to her, the world would be so much better.

Luckily I'm the man..the patriarch and have "the final say". 

So I set things up so that if my wife chooses these certain things she looks like a supermom and if she goes down the path that she wants...she is the one that ends up getting publicly shamed.

As in..a couple of years ago one of my younger teens and a friend sipped some booze (wine I think).  My wife had the family arranged in a room like an audience, the hapless teen was up on the "witness stand" in front of them and I was the last one brought in (having no idea what was going on).

My wife starts shaming the kid, telling everyone what a horrible sinner the kid is...this is what happens when you are a bad person...  I stood up an ended it, used some appropriate scripture and declared that nothing like this would EVER happen again in our family. 

My wife ran from the room, I finished up the public lesson and then over next couple days followed up with each kid.

Ugg...horrid stuff.   When she does "normal" or "kind" things I'm pretty over the top on public praise.  So..slowly over time those things seem more common and "religious" things have decreased. 


Best,

FF

[CoherentMoose]

CoMo, that sucks that those kids are dealing with that.  Sounds like a terrible situation for them.  I actually think in your case that the kids are now the target.  Not the target of blame, but the target of manipulation.

 

Ahh Defogger, that makes sense.  Yes, they are the target.  Thanks.

It sucks, big time, when you see how the kids are being manipulated to choose a favorite.  I think the best thing you can do (and all you can do) is teach the kids to think for themselves, be independent, give them some free space to just be themselves, and always be there to support them.

Agree.  One of the theme's my fiancé has established is she wants to create a home environment where her children can be themselves and not live in a pressure cooker.  You're advice is spot on.  Thank you.  CoMo

[defogging]

One of the theme's my fiancé has established is she wants to create a home environment where her children can be themselves and not live in a pressure cooker.

Pressure cooker is an accurate description of what my kids have at the other house too.  It seems they always have to be "performing" whether it's loving Mom the most, or being "the best" at whatever activity they are participating in.  It's sad to watch.

Giving the kids a home where they can be themselves is probably the best thing I've ever done for them.  They have come so far in a short time.  They're happier, feel free to speak their opinion, understand how to compromise with each other, and their demeanor is more relaxed than ever before.  For the first time I can finally see what awesome kids they are underneath all the pressures they face.  Even if nothing else good had come out of the divorce it would have been worth this alone.  Kudos to you and your fiancé for recognizing this dynamic and taking steps to help them out.