Most people already know

[grumpydonut]

Hi all,

Over my 18 months here, I've come to a conclusion that I think is pretty important! That is, most of us already know that our attempts to get back with our exes are going to end in drama and pain, yet we do it anyway. Many, if not most, of us here seem pretty good at reading people. Yet, it has become apparent that we are mostly really bad at actually listening to ourselves. Instead, we return to the person who caused us pain in order to seek validation of our worth, only to be used again. Logically we know it's not going to work (or convince ourselves it'll be different based on hope) yet that urge to be validated by our abuser seems to override it.

The point? Please please start looking at your motivations for returning to your ex before you do so. It's going to save so many of us so much of our time and emotional health.

If the little voice says "it can work" and you know that comes from a place of logic, then go and try again! But how often is that actually the case?

[SinisterComplex]

Hi all,

Over my 18 months here, I've come to a conclusion that I think is pretty important! That is, most of us already know that our attempts to get back with our exes are going to end in drama and pain, yet we do it anyway. Many, if not most, of us here seem pretty good at reading people. Yet, it has become apparent that we are mostly really bad at actually listening to ourselves. Instead, we return to the person who caused us pain in order to seek validation of our worth, only to be used again. Logically we know it's not going to work (or convince ourselves it'll be different based on hope) yet that urge to be validated by our abuser seems to override it.

The point? Please please start looking at your motivations for returning to your ex before you do so. It's going to save so many of us so much of our time and emotional health.

If the little voice says "it can work" and you know that comes from a place of logic, then go and try again! But how often is that actually the case?

Grumpy I applaud you. I've essentially said the same thing in different words many times through the years to various people. However, often this is just going to fall on deaf ears. I sincerely hope that what you say here reaches even just 1 person. Why? Because even if it is just 1 person you made a difference and it has to start somewhere. To those who want to jump on Grumpy's team and be aboard the train I ask that you choose to make a difference by living it not just saying yeah I agree. Everything sounds great from ideological standpoint, but it only matters when words, thoughts, and ideas are put into action.

Now, a question I propose to you? Why is it that so many people repeat the same behaviors? Is it a failure of society? Is the system rigged for failure? Are people setup for success and then just bungle everything themselves through implosion? Truly just food for thought for discussion purposes...

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[ACycleWiser]

Now, a question I propose to you? Why is it that so many people repeat the same behaviors? Is it a failure of society? Is the system rigged for failure? Are people setup for success and then just bungle everything themselves through implosion? Truly just food for thought for discussion purposes...

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

Because you are arrogant enough to assume you'll succeed, unconsciously though you feel worthless and can't live with yourself without success.

That is what drives all ego comedy, thinking you HAVE TO do something however stupid it might be to feel worthy.

[ACycleWiser]

If the little voice says "it can work" and you know that comes from a place of logic, then go and try again! But how often is that actually the case?

Even if we think it sounds like coming from a place of logic, it could still be a rationalization of an emotional impulse. Often we are not able to see the unconscious drive that influences our logic.

These sort of relationships are there to make you become aware of stuff that rules your life but that you have no idea are within you. It involves deep pain and learning to protect you from that. It involves broken dreams and recovering from them. It involves unmet needs and learning to make the choice to meet them yourself ... or together with a healthier person. But as long as that stuff doesn't all come to the surface of your mind, you cycle back. It's Borderline School

[grumpydonut]

Hippocrates apparently once said "before you heal someone, ask him if he is willing to give up the things that make him sick".

Many aren't willing to give up their BPD ex or on the toxic relationship. We want to undo the ills and make it all better. And we perform mental gymnastics to try to convince ourselves we can.

I honestly think the greatest barrier to a happy life for many of us, is us. And it only gets better when we accept that. 

[brighter future]

I agree with everything that you had to say, grumpy. In my case, I felt like I couldn't do any better due to my own personal and self-confidence issues. The same was true with my ex-wife before my ex-g/f.  While I never went back to my ex-g/f after I was discarded (she did reach out to me several times though), I pined for her for nearly a year after our split.

While I was in the relationship, I knew there were significant issues that needed to be addressed. However, I kept telling myself that it would get better and that we loved one another, so we could work past all of it. That couldn't have been farther from the truth. Thankfully after stepping out of the relationship, I knew that it would ultimately destroy me if I ever went back to her. As I said above, that didn't stop me from pining for her, however. The Holiday season last year was really tough without her, and I was really depressed. This year is markedly different in a positive way.

I hope you have a Happy New Year.

[ILMBPDC]

Welll...erhm...uhhh... yeah

Ok, I know I'm one of the recent ones who thought I could do this - my intent was not to get back together but to maintain some sort of friendship and yeah I got sucked back in pretty easily (though we weren't "back together" at any point either, the terminology doesn't matter does it?  Emotionally, I was back to 6 months ago, whether he was or not).

I have been trying really, really hard to look at my motivation - was I being honest with myself about my intentions? I think I was, I truly did want to have a friendship with him. But I was not being realistic to the fact that I have extremely poor boundaries when it comes to him (actually I have terrible boundaries in romantic relationships, period) and that my feelings were not completely gone... and that was my downfall.

It started out fine, we talked periodically, we were friendly. I let my guard down. Did he sense that? hmmm
I wanted to believe that I was stronger than before. I really did. I had been seeing a therapist and had done a bunch of different things to address some of my issues (but... I was not addressing my codependency which I now see is key).
I admit, the initial stages felt great, I felt admired, I felt desired. It was not hard to fall back in.
I wanted to believe that he had been working on himself, as he repeatedly says he is (and maybe he is, but he's not seeing a therapist, which is what he really needs).

I know I have a lot of work to do on myself. A lot. I am working with a new therapist on my codependency and cPTSD. And I do learn from my mistakes; I now know 100% that it can't work between us. We are each too broken in our own way and we cannot properly maintain a healthy relationship together. Both of us need extensive therapy and I am the only one working on that. I will never get what I need from a relationship with him (I don't think any woman could, but that is not for me to worry about).


If I am being completely honest, I admit I'm scared. I admit I feel like he was my last chance, and that is part of why I clung to him, even after the initial discard. But I also realize that I cannot live the rest of my life with someone who can be so emotionally cold and unempathetic. So I guess I will take my chances at being alone; at least I will remain sane.

[Couscous]

Great topic Grumpy!

I think that many of the traits from The Laundry List by the ACOA org. apply to people attracted to BPDs:

We live life from the viewpoint of victims and we are attracted by that weakness in our love and friendship relationships.
We have an overdeveloped sense of responsibility and it is easier for us to be concerned with others rather than ourselves; this enables us not to look too closely at our own faults, etc.
We get guilt feelings when we stand up for ourselves instead of giving in to others.
We became addicted to excitement.
We confuse love and pity and tend to “love” people we can “pity” and “rescue.”
We have “stuffed” our feelings from our traumatic childhoods and have lost the ability to feel or express our feelings because it hurts so much (Denial).
We judge ourselves harshly and have a very low sense of self-esteem.
We are dependent personalities who are terrified of abandonment and will do anything to hold on to a relationship in order not to experience painful abandonment feelings, which we received from living with sick people who were never there emotionally for us.

https://adultchildren.org/literature/laundry-list/

[ACycleWiser]

Great topic Grumpy!

I think that many of the traits from The Laundry List by the ACOA org. apply to people attracted to BPDs:

We live life from the viewpoint of victims and we are attracted by that weakness in our love and friendship relationships.
We have an overdeveloped sense of responsibility and it is easier for us to be concerned with others rather than ourselves; this enables us not to look too closely at our own faults, etc.
We get guilt feelings when we stand up for ourselves instead of giving in to others.
We became addicted to excitement.
We confuse love and pity and tend to “love” people we can “pity” and “rescue.”
We have “stuffed” our feelings from our traumatic childhoods and have lost the ability to feel or express our feelings because it hurts so much (Denial).
We judge ourselves harshly and have a very low sense of self-esteem.
We are dependent personalities who are terrified of abandonment and will do anything to hold on to a relationship in order not to experience painful abandonment feelings, which we received from living with sick people who were never there emotionally for us.

Check. I had almost forgotten about this but it is true. And often it is not so much the drinking itself, but the fact that you have emotionally unavailable parents who need to drink to feel something. Otherwise they are numb and not engaged, especially with their children that leaves a detrimental mark.

[ACycleWiser]

Welll...erhm...uhhh... yeah

I know I have a lot of work to do on myself. A lot. I am working with a new therapist on my codependency and cPTSD. And I do learn from my mistakes; I now know 100% that it can't work between us. We are each too broken in our own way and we cannot properly maintain a healthy relationship together. Both of us need extensive therapy and I am the only one working on that. I will never get what I need from a relationship with him (I don't think any woman could, but that is not for me to worry about).


If I am being completely honest, I admit I'm scared. I admit I feel like he was my last chance, and that is part of why I clung to him, even after the initial discard. But I also realize that I cannot live the rest of my life with someone who can be so emotionally cold and unempathetic. So I guess I will take my chances at being alone; at least I will remain sane.

He was your last chance, of doing things the old way.
The thing that you are not considering right now is the new way where you are free from the chains of codependency, and can actually have MORE rewarding relationships.

I think my codependency trap is that i like(d) intensity and i always love a good crisis, cause i am a great fixer.
But what i fail to see underneath that is that the relationship is really empty, one-sided because there is no common investment, each partner is just playing on their field, needy in their own way with little real togetherness.

[once removed]

i agree with all of your points, gd, and i appreciate the nuance you present them with.

if youre going to reconcile, whether it be a friendship or romantic relationship, with anyone, you need to be realistic about the outcome, and check your motivations.

i think that truthfully, most (not all) romantic relationships that end are not meant to reconcile, or to become friendships. especially by the time weve reached the Detaching board where a lot of us have been through multiple cycles and are months removed.

im reasonably close friends with an ex with bpd traits. that only happened years after a really bad breakup where i was painted (publicly) as some kind of stalker, and she literally posted fliers about me around the school! that wouldnt seem, on the surface, like anyone id ever want to have a connection with, but the one we formed years later is both somewhat rewarding, and i also wouldnt suffer if it stopped.

by the same token, regarding the ex that brought me here, im emotionally capable of having that relationship, but im not interested. it ended ten years ago, weve never spoken since, and it made no sense a long time ago to ever need to speak to each other again. if she reached out to me, id (probably) politely respond, but i dont expect that to ever happen.

i would, for the sake of discussion throw out that you can apply this logic to any addiction, impulse, or compulsion, and its not as simple as, say, "this is bad for you, you should stop". ever try to push a dog backward? it instinctively moves forward. by the same token, anyone who has ever posted on the Bettering board who is in a domestic violence situation who is told "leave, it only gets worse", just leaves their support system, and not the relationship. there is a human nature component to all of that.

there was a point at which ever hearing from my ex again felt like life or death, and i would have given anything for it. to know, or feel, that i wasnt completely erased, that i mattered, whatever it was. i remember crying, perhaps the hardest ive ever cried, begging god not even necessarily to bring her back to me, just to hear from her in some way, in some form, at some point. theres no advice that would have changed that. what was valuable, even then, was A: getting at that feeling and what was driving it, and B: what i would do if it happened.

[Rev]

Hi all,

Over my 18 months here, I've come to a conclusion that I think is pretty important! That is, most of us already know that our attempts to get back with our exes are going to end in drama and pain, yet we do it anyway. Many, if not most, of us here seem pretty good at reading people. Yet, it has become apparent that we are mostly really bad at actually listening to ourselves. Instead, we return to the person who caused us pain in order to seek validation of our worth, only to be used again. Logically we know it's not going to work (or convince ourselves it'll be different based on hope) yet that urge to be validated by our abuser seems to override it.

The point? Please please start looking at your motivations for returning to your ex before you do so. It's going to save so many of us so much of our time and emotional health.

If the little voice says "it can work" and you know that comes from a place of logic, then go and try again! But how often is that actually the case?

Great thread ...

Let me add a bit of science ... If we can agree that a break-up with a pwBPD carries with it a certain amount of trauma (in the clinical sense of the word - an emotional response to an event causing loss and/or shock) and we begin to process it - in this case making the decision to go back (I did twice - almost on a dime) - we can become blind to something.

WE change as a result of processing the trauma. A mind that moves, never comes back to where it was.  And in this change, if I am going to be black and white here - one of two things happen.

1) We become unable to abide certain behaviors that we once tolerated. In that case, the relationship ends not long after.

2) We return to the relationship hoping to regain the "love we once new".  And yet we have changed, and there are behaviors we can't abide. So we make a conscious choice to deny part of ourselves - a relatively new and fragile part of ourselves. Denial is in fact a typical trauma response.

Happy holidays.

Rev

[SinisterComplex]

Welll...erhm...uhhh... yeah

Ok, I know I'm one of the recent ones who thought I could do this - my intent was not to get back together but to maintain some sort of friendship and yeah I got sucked back in pretty easily (though we weren't "back together" at any point either, the terminology doesn't matter does it?  Emotionally, I was back to 6 months ago, whether he was or not).

I have been trying really, really hard to look at my motivation - was I being honest with myself about my intentions? I think I was, I truly did want to have a friendship with him. But I was not being realistic to the fact that I have extremely poor boundaries when it comes to him (actually I have terrible boundaries in romantic relationships, period) and that my feelings were not completely gone... and that was my downfall.

It started out fine, we talked periodically, we were friendly. I let my guard down. Did he sense that? hmmm
I wanted to believe that I was stronger than before. I really did. I had been seeing a therapist and had done a bunch of different things to address some of my issues (but... I was not addressing my codependency which I now see is key).
I admit, the initial stages felt great, I felt admired, I felt desired. It was not hard to fall back in.
I wanted to believe that he had been working on himself, as he repeatedly says he is (and maybe he is, but he's not seeing a therapist, which is what he really needs).

I know I have a lot of work to do on myself. A lot. I am working with a new therapist on my codependency and cPTSD. And I do learn from my mistakes; I now know 100% that it can't work between us. We are each too broken in our own way and we cannot properly maintain a healthy relationship together. Both of us need extensive therapy and I am the only one working on that. I will never get what I need from a relationship with him (I don't think any woman could, but that is not for me to worry about).


If I am being completely honest, I admit I'm scared. I admit I feel like he was my last chance, and that is part of why I clung to him, even after the initial discard. But I also realize that I cannot live the rest of my life with someone who can be so emotionally cold and unempathetic. So I guess I will take my chances at being alone; at least I will remain sane.

You know IL...I really want to see you happy and overcome a lot of this. Truly. Again, I have to mention though...the walls aren't closing in. He wasn't your last chance. If it is any consolation there are many people who do this to themselves. That desperation is born out of fear and I would blame that one on society as a whole to be honest. Being paired up with the right partner is wonderful yes. However, being paired up is not the end all be all. Still have to develop one's self. Still have to be an individual. Co-dependency is arguably a pandemic in and of itself and probably leads to more mental health issues than many would be comfortable with.

Do not be afraid to move on. Do not be afraid to better yourself. You deserve so much more and something better.

Honestly, you are blocking yourself from potentially finding a great mate with your current thinking. I am sure you know all of this and you will think me to be a condescending $$, but seriously quit letting your age put you into hypervigilance mode. And hey for what it's worth...I will never try to hurt you...I may piss you off and ruffle your feathers, but my goal is to help you here and to that end it matters more that you respect me and my intent as opposed to like me. I approach people liking me as icing on the cake so to speak. I have faith you are going to breakthrough at some point and you are going to get it. Learn to let yourself develop a relationship with YOURSELF. It is ok to be alone. You won't be taking chances you will just be doing what needs to be done and learning to live healthily.

I look forward to you doing better. I hope to see updates from you moving forward...good or bad. You will have support from this family regardless.

Cheers and best wishes! 

-SC-

[ILMBPDC]

You know IL...I really want to see you happy and overcome a lot of this. Truly. Again, I have to mention though...the walls aren't closing in. He wasn't your last chance. If it is any consolation there are many people who do this to themselves. That desperation is born out of fear and I would blame that one on society as a whole to be honest. Being paired up with the right partner is wonderful yes. However, being paired up is not the end all be all. Still have to develop one's self. Still have to be an individual. Co-dependency is arguably a pandemic in and of itself and probably leads to more mental health issues than many would be comfortable with.

Honestly, you are blocking yourself from potentially finding a great mate with your current thinking. I am sure you know all of this and you will think me to be a condescending $$, but seriously quit letting your age put you into hypervigilance mode.

Hey SC
Funny thing is, I didn't care about getting married or my age until I hit 45 (or at least I told myself I didn't care). Part of it may very well be because I realized my daughter is growing up and I have no one else in my life and the isolation of the pandemic drove that home. Part of it may be having everyone else's relationships thrown in my face constantly and being told "you'll find someone when you least expect it" (ugh, honestly that has to be the most condescending thing). I know a lot of it is subtle social messaging for my entire life, telling me women over 40 are essentially worthless. I also know some of it is my self-worth, having men (and frankly, society) treat me like my looks/body are the most important thing and internalizing that. At my age, those things are going rapidly downhill and deep down I feel like I have nothing else to offer (which is ludicrous I know).  The closer I get to 50 and the closer my daughter gets to moving out, the more I seem to panic.

I talk to myself in the car or if I'm home alone and tell myself the same things you tell me. But there is a part of me I can't seem to convince. I am considering asking my therapist if we can focus on my cPTSD instead of my codependency right now, I feel like the cPTSD is a much bigger issue, especially with these emotional flashbacks I keep having. I'm not sure if she's well-versed in that, I may have to find yet another therapist. She doesn't even know most of what I post here - there are a lot of things only this board knows.

And hey for what it's worth...I will never try to hurt you...I may piss you off and ruffle your feathers, but my goal is to help you here and to that end it matters more that you respect me and my intent as opposed to like me. I approach people liking me as icing on the cake so to speak. I have faith you are going to breakthrough at some point and you are going to get it. Learn to let yourself develop a relationship with YOURSELF. It is ok to be alone. You won't be taking chances you will just be doing what needs to be done and learning to live healthily.

Its all good, I know I need to be called out on things sometimes, it makes me think.

I used to be fine with being alone. I was single for 10 years prior to Mr BPD and even before that was never one to "always" have to have a boyfriend, often going a year or two between relationships. On the other hand, I pretty much also always had my daughter to focus on, trying to keep a roof over our heads and feed us. And before her, I was young and still had many friends from school to hang out with. Even as a kid I always had my sisters and neighborhood friends. So maybe I haven't ever been truly alone.

I look forward to you doing better. I hope to see updates from you moving forward...good or bad. You will have support from this family regardless.

Thanks, I appreciate this board more than you know