A leopard doesn't change it's spots

[Woolspinner2000]

It's a fairly rare event for Wools to have smoke coming out of her llama ears, but tonight she does. I'm usually pretty chill and don't feel angry too often.

My ex had something that I picked up from the front desk where he lives (a retirement community) that was a gift for our D33. She lives out of state and couldn't come home for Christmas. I offered to put it in my box of Christmas gifts that I need to mail to her. He texted me this morning to say he'd leave it at the front desk wrapped in some of his writing that he'd been doing lately, and I could read it if I wanted to. I asked if he wanted the items to our D to stay wrapped in his writing and he said, "I don't think so." That told me the writing was meant for me only. I wonder why an intense headache started about the time of that text?

After I picked up the items, I drove over to visit the couple that gave me a place of refuge when I needed to leave almost 3 years ago. I never even told my kids where I was staying for those months because I didn't want them to have to deal with answering their dad if he asked them. He pressured me more than once to tell him, but I held strong and remained in a safe shelter for quite a few months until I needed to move. I asked the wife to screen the two pages of writing for me which is one way that I keep a boundary around myself. I sorta expected what the wrting said. It was more of the same, that all women are to blame for the relationship problems in a marriage, basically because they walk in sin.

Those of you who followed some of my story may remember that my ex did a lot of writing and published his own books about relationships. He mixes truth with crazy thoughts, and it was so easy for me to get confused which I now know is a tactic of coercive control. This writing was more of the same. While he never stated that I was the "illustration" in his writings, it's pretty clear thst the examples are all from our marriage.

My friend reminded me that he has no power over me anymore. I am divorced and this is just a hook to pull me back in. I think it takes a lot of audacity for him to give me more of his writing, once again is pointing out how I was the problem in our relationship and how God didn't want that. Here it will be 3 years in January that I left for my safety, and we've been divorced for over 1 1/2 years. He re-emphasized that I should never enter into another relationship.

At least I am glad that now I can actually feel anger about this rather than cower in fear. I can see that he is still the same as he was and has the same thoughts he always has had.

Thanks for letting me vent. I know you all get it.
Wools

[SinisterComplex]

Woolsy you vent as much as you need to.

You may not feel it, but you are powerful. Hold your head up high. All that nonsense is just white noise crying out for attention because you faced fear head on and you WON. Don't forget that!

Cheers and best wishes! 

-SC-

[WhatToDo47]

Stay strong and vent whenever you need! Way to grow and learn and better yourself!

[Turkish]

Kind of passive-aggressive but controlling just the same. I'm glad that you had your friend screen it.

As my T told me, "personalities typically don't change," and he was referring to someone who went through therapy.

[Woolspinner2000]

Thanks SC. I don't feel strong or powerful, but feelings should never be our moral compass. The intensity of how I feel will ease up in a few days. Until then I shall sit with my emotions and let them be what they are, just feelings and instead try to focus on the facts of who I know I am. I'm on a teeter totter of feelings at the moment. It's never a wise move to do something when emotions get so big. The more rational even-keeled Wools will settle back in soon. The good news is that I have learned to recognize, acknowledge and be more okay with feelings, something that having a uBPDm didn't allow me to do for most of my life. It's only been about 10 years since T helped me to process that part of my life.

WhatToDo47, thank you for your encouragement. Life would be far to dull if we never had the opportunity to learn, IMHO. However, there's some things that I would rather the learning curve be a bit more gentle!

Turkish,

Kind of passive-aggressive but controlling just the same. I'm glad that you had your friend screen it.

You are absolutely right. I had forgotten how PA he is. My attorney for the divorce said that my ex's picture would be above the definition of PA, and he has dealt with a lot of difficult strong clients and their spouses. I never did read the writing, btw. My friend read some of the key lines out loud and summarized it quite well. Because of T, I have learned that there is no obligation or FOG that need to push me into reading something that would be harmful to me. The rules are to Stay Safe. In my head I keep working hard to not let my ex have space up there. I want to focus on other things and enjoy every moment of life that I am gifted with.

I'm getting out of Dodge today and going to visit my 101 year old grandma and then meeting one of my nephews for lunch. It's a day to rejoice in the opportunities to bring joy to others. I can feel the tension and anger in my body, so perhaps some physical exercise will help too.

 
Wools

[SinisterComplex]

Kind of passive-aggressive but controlling just the same. I'm glad that you had your friend screen it.

As my T told me, "personalities typically don't change," and he was referring to someone who went through therapy.

Turkish, this is an interesting area of debate. When in discussion about personality vs character typically what happens is that personality is the more dynamic of the two meaning that it continually develops and changes over time due to life experiences. Character on the other hand is thought to be more of a constant and static. But that is just a basic thought process. Now granted, I am one who does think if you were the kind of person who would sell your mother down the river, 10 or 20 years down the road you will still be that person (character), it doesn't change.

Personality on the other hand changes depending on life events and experiences. To say someone's personality remains the same from when they are young to when they are mid life and beyond I think is false. While I admire and appreciate William James I do argue with his notion that personality is set like plaster after the age of 30. Hence why I do appreciate more of B.F. Skinner's work in this arena. I do not necessarily entirely follow one view over any other though. I entertain all.

Just some food for thought and pushing this discussion along.

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[Woolspinner2000]

SC,

I've been thinking about your post. I've not read either of the authors you mentioned. I guess I can only share from my own perspective and add some food for thought.

I've heard character to be defined as 'who you are when no one is looking.' I like that definition. To me it speaks to the depth of who a person is. It's how we walk out our beliefs and values.

Now as for personalities, in the DSMV, we don't call them 'character' disorders but rather 'personality' disorders or cluster A or B personality disorders. That's kind of intriguing.

Do I think our character or personality can change? To a certain extent, perhaps, sometimes. The title of this thread and topic was to illustrate that my ex has not changed, or if anything, he is more of who he is/always was. Let me explain that. According to medical issues and tests, something happened a few years ago (stroke) that correlated with his increased controlling behaviors and attitudes and loss of rational thinking. It was as if his inhibitions to hold back and adhere to social norms had nearly disappeared. Others in our group of friends and family noticed it. His changes are what made it so hard the last 5-7 years for me and our kids. I'm guessing or attributing who he became to have to do with who he always was that just intensified. I hope I am saying that in a way that makes sense.

Over time as a person ages, we can often see changes in personalities where a person becomes more mild, or where they become more angry and bitter. Who they are is seen in greater intensity or manner later on (I saw this with my uBPDm who got worse when she had brain cancer). In nursing homes and mental institutions we see it. Chronic pain or great compassion shown to us can bring out emotions in us that affect who we are or how we are seen by others.

There is also the possibility that we can learn and grow and change for the better. I believe it was my character, the strength of who I am, that allowed me to stay in my marriage as long as I did, but it was also my personality trait of fear that kept me there. As I grew in confidence in myself and unlearned so much of what a child growing up in a BPD home learns, the total fear in my life began to recede and a deeper strength began to emerge. So did my personality change? I think some. I am not the same person that I was. I feel that I am much healthier and stronger.

Do those with N or BPD traits change? It's possible, but not probable. We know that from studies. Maybe it depends on the depth to which a personality trait is embedded in a person.

My ex has not changed who he was when I left. He doesn't see that he has any issue or problem, therefore there is no need to change. Maybe that's a part of it.

Just kicking the discussion along. Thoughts?

Wools

[AskingWhy]

What an empowering message.  I am in the detaching phase.  For far too long, I was a codependent who was turning into a masochist in order to make the marriage work.

BPDs love to play the victim and place blame on the partners.

I read a book on dealing with people with NPD and one of the main take homes was, "Give up hope."

That is what I am doing now.  On New Years Day, uBPD H started pouting (I have been allowing myself to feel the anger over the abuse of almost 25 years) over my attitudes. He is enmeshed with his adult children, especially his Ds, both of whom are over 30.  These Ds appear to be in the BPD and NPD spectrum, and have abused him over the years, including emotional blackmail.  He is still desperate for their approval.

My H is not going to change.  I am not ready for a divorce, although H, like a BPD, has been making divorce threats in an attempt to control me for almost 25 years.  I am so very close to taking him up on it.  (Although BPDs fear abandonment.)

Anger is healing.  As you said, cowering is not.  I used to cower when my H threatened divorce.

Woolsy, vent all you want.  You are moving in the right direction of healing.

[SinisterComplex]

SC,

I've been thinking about your post. I've not read either of the authors you mentioned. I guess I can only share from my own perspective and add some food for thought.

I've heard character to be defined as 'who you are when no one is looking.' I like that definition. To me it speaks to the depth of who a person is. It's how we walk out our beliefs and values.

Now as for personalities, in the DSMV, we don't call them 'character' disorders but rather 'personality' disorders or cluster A or B personality disorders. That's kind of intriguing.

Do I think our character or personality can change? To a certain extent, perhaps, sometimes. The title of this thread and topic was to illustrate that my ex has not changed, or if anything, he is more of who he is/always was. Let me explain that. According to medical issues and tests, something happened a few years ago (stroke) that correlated with his increased controlling behaviors and attitudes and loss of rational thinking. It was as if his inhibitions to hold back and adhere to social norms had nearly disappeared. Others in our group of friends and family noticed it. His changes are what made it so hard the last 5-7 years for me and our kids. I'm guessing or attributing who he became to have to do with who he always was that just intensified. I hope I am saying that in a way that makes sense.

Over time as a person ages, we can often see changes in personalities where a person becomes more mild, or where they become more angry and bitter. Who they are is seen in greater intensity or manner later on (I saw this with my uBPDm who got worse when she had brain cancer). In nursing homes and mental institutions we see it. Chronic pain or great compassion shown to us can bring out emotions in us that affect who we are or how we are seen by others.

There is also the possibility that we can learn and grow and change for the better. I believe it was my character, the strength of who I am, that allowed me to stay in my marriage as long as I did, but it was also my personality trait of fear that kept me there. As I grew in confidence in myself and unlearned so much of what a child growing up in a BPD home learns, the total fear in my life began to recede and a deeper strength began to emerge. So did my personality change? I think some. I am not the same person that I was. I feel that I am much healthier and stronger.

Do those with N or BPD traits change? It's possible, but not probable. We know that from studies. Maybe it depends on the depth to which a personality trait is embedded in a person.

My ex has not changed who he was when I left. He doesn't see that he has any issue or problem, therefore there is no need to change. Maybe that's a part of it.

Just kicking the discussion along. Thoughts?

Wools

Hey Woolsy. William James is essentially the Father of Psychology (1st person to teach a psychology course in the US). B.F. Skinner will most likely pop up on everyone's radar if you mention Operant Conditioning...ie Positive reinforcement, or reinforcement theory. However, in order to truly understand BF Skinner and where his theories came from you have to go back John B Watson and even Edward Thorndike since they are essentially the founding fathers of behaviorism.

See where things get tough as it pertains to personality disorders are the possibility of physical issues leading to the personality disorders such as neurological defects or injuries a la the Phineas Gage Incident. In the case of your ex-husband I may offer up the possibility that perhaps he did in fact have a personality disorder, but the issues were even more pronounced after the stroke. Kinda of like a match that was dropped on a powder keg of TNT. So although my response appears convoluted I am agree with you in some respects here ;-).

The stroke had a major impact, but there was already the disposition for the deterioration to take place. Again...I am just offering up an idea for discussion's sake. No right or wrong here.

As you will notice I truly love to stir the pot and make people think. 

Cheers and best wishes!

-SC-

[Woolspinner2000]

SC,

Kinda of like a match that was dropped on a powder keg of TNT.

Good analogy that totally makes sense. I don't think my ex ever noticed any change in himself except he talked about having trouble finding words initially. Neither of us really noticed anything was indicative of a stroke, but after he was told a CT showed previous stroke damage (several years later), he remembered the difficulty finding words and correlated it to perhaps being the time when it happened. From my perspective and that of our son, those were the days/years When we kept wondering if we were imagining things or were we the ones going crazy as he began doing and saying strange things and getting more and more controlling and just plain mean and aggressive.

As you will notice I truly love to stir the pot and make people think.

There's something rather sinister about all that...  Really though, dialog is good, and this is a safe place for us to practice it and have good back and forth discussion.

AskingWhy, 

I am in the detaching phase...I read a book on dealing with people with NPD and one of the main take homes was, "Give up hope."

The detaching stage is quite often a place that we each need to come to. For me it was difficult, but it was absolutely necessary for me to achieve deeper healing. I think I must still have some attachment otherwise the whole issue that I wrote about may not have bothered me so much. It's a process just like everything else I suppose.

As far as giving up hope, I think we do need to give up false hope. So many of our relationships are not based on reality but rather falsely hoping for things to magically change. Magic thinking isn't helpful.

So back to what I wrote about in my original post. Is what my ex did considered 'normal' behavior several years out of D and separation? I guess never having been in this place before, I had assumed (unknowingly) that he'd not go back to trying to get me with behaviors that were typical before the divorce. Is this something I will keep seeing down the road?

Woolsy

[Turkish]

Wools,

My ex's husband, the guy she left me for, once grabbed her arms, forcing her onto the couch, and demanded that he forbade her from divorcing him due to biblical principles 

He was in his 20s...