Setting boundaries with whole family

[todayistheday]

Actor #1 - uBPD Mom - my therapist hypothesized she had BPD and advised me to read Stop Walking on Eggshells.  It was the story of my life.  She's early 80s in age.

Actor #2 - nBPD Dad- who is sweet, but henpecked, beaten down, wimpy, afraid of Mom.  

They have been married for over 60 years.

Actor #3, my sister  As a child, was the golden one.  Until about 10 years ago, I though she was oblivious to Mom.  She lives next door and is somewhat enmeshed.   Mom gave her free babysitting for about 12 years from the time her first was born until her oldest was in school and beyond.  Said "I'll have to take care of them when they're old" when she bought house next door.

Actor #4 - me - scapegoat child.  Growing up, I could never do ANYTHING right.  I grew up successful in spite of Mom.  I live about 100 miles away.   I got control of her before I ever heard of BPD by walking out of her house and driving home when she started in on me in the kitchen during a part mom was giving -- therefore disappearing in front of her guests.  That happened 30 years ago -- now half my life.  I didn't even realize that she had fear of abandonment and that walking out was the best thing I could do.

Actor set #5 My sister's 3 kids, my mom's grand-kids.  I never had kids.  I was afraid of becoming my Mother if I had kids.

Dilemma.
Until they started having illnesses, I thought sister was oblivious.  Over the years, I've learned that she does know how badly Mom treats Dad.  And probably how badly Mom treated me.   Dad was going to leave Mom about 40 years ago when sister graduated high school.  Sister knew it and was supportive of it.  When they get sick or in too bad of a fight, sister calls me to referee.  I have done it in the past for my Dad's sake.  My Dad is pretty much isolated and I am his only sounding board.  Mom plays gatekeeper and keeps Dad from talking to sister.  
Mom tells the three of us different things, sometimes the opposite.  Sometimes I think I see and know more of what's going on there from all sides than any of them do after hearing what they all have to say.  Mom tells me one thing.  Dad says that mom said something else.  Sister says that Mom told her the opposite.

When I visited sister, she hypothesized that Mom is depressed and may want to end things for herself.  We both kind of said there was nothing we could do about it.  Leaving some things unsaid.  Dad today kind of said the same thing.

My Dad needs cataract surgery and that Mom is resistant.  

When I've tried talking to sister about thing going on there, she says "he had his chance to get away and didn't.  I know it's probably her boundary.

So I visited today. I love my Dad dearly and I know that although he is healthy, at his age, things can change quickly and I want to spend time with him.  Today he shut the door and quietly talked to me about a lot of things, some involving sister and her kids.  He wanted me to talk to sister and tell her what he told me.  

Among other things, Mom is jealous of her youngest grandson's girlfriend.  And is no longer speaking to her oldest grandson because he was rude to her.  Her oldest grandson is autistic.  He probably had no idea that he was rude or that mom isn't speaking to him.  

I don't want to and don't plan to tell her all the stuff Dad told me.  I'm tired of being everyone's sounding board.  I may tell her "Dad  told me some stuff and wanted me to talk to you.  You need to find a way to talk to him directly rather then me being a go-between and possibly getting things more mixed up than they already are."

I really love my Dad and don't want to let him down.  But I don't want to make things worse for everyone else, myself included.

Oh, and my Mom is always saying that I'm jealous of my sister because my sister gets more attention than I do.  No, whatever positive things my sister may get from the relationship are far than being worth the cost.  I'm glad that I'm far enough away to be out of the drama most of the time.

I am trying to visit one per month due to Dad's age.  Other than that, I plan to get out of the middle of all of their dramas, other than telling sister to talk to Dad.  So thankful that I live far enough away to not be involved in the daily mess.




 

[Turkish]

Triangulation nightmare, yes? Why do you think your dad wants you to communicate to your sister that he can't to his other daughter? I'll hazard a guess: that it will get back to your mother, and he won't have to deal with the fallout, or manning up as a father and grandfather, because... "hen-pecked."  This isn't your responsibility. It's worked this way for him for decades of marriage, and it's sad that he hasn't "manned/fathered up."

The cataract surgery is another thing. He's capable of advocating for himself, especially due to medical privacy laws. Do you think that she forbidding this enters into elder abuse?

[Notwendy]

The cataract surgery is another thing. He's capable of advocating for himself, especially due to medical privacy laws. Do you think that she forbidding this enters into elder abuse?


Although there were medical privacy rules, these didn't apply to my parents as they lived together. There is really no way for one spouse to have surgery and the other not know it.

I did call social services about my concerns about how my mother was treating my father in his elder years. Their response was that since he was legally mentally competent, he would have to agree to the charge. There was no way he'd have done that, but at least I tried.

I think your boundaries are reasonable ones and that not being the go between to relate your father's messages to your sister is a good idea. He can tell her himself.

As to "having his chance to get away" - we thought our father might take that step as well, but he didn't. The relationship between my parents was complex. Like you, I thought of my father as being more of a victim of my BPD mother's behavior. However, when I had to work on my own co-dependent tendencies, I was able to understand that he was also as much a part of their dynamics. He would not have stayed in this situation if it didn't fit him in some way.

I naively stepped in to try to "rescue" him and this was naive. BPD mother got angry- and he stepped in to "rescue" her against me.

I don't know why your mother doesn't want your father to have the cataract surgery but it may have something to do with the dynamics between them. My father's role was caretaker/rescuer to my mother. If he needed assistance, this was a reversal of that role and BPD mother's behaviors escalated when Dad was not fulfilling that role. Your father needing a medical procedure might increase your mother's feelings of abandonment or possibly he wouldn't be able to do things for her during that time? However, a cataract can impair his vision. It's not really a choice for him- he needs to get that taken care of.

[zachira]

My heart goes out to you. I am the scapegoat of a family with a BPD mother who is now deceased. You are trying to avoid all the drama while staying in contact with your dad because you love him and because of his age. I am still in contact with some of the members of my extended family and their long time family friends. The drama is never ending no matter what boundaries I set. Considering all the triangulation in your family, you must have a long list of boundaries you are trying to set and maintain. Can you tell us more about what some of the boundaries are and what you are doing for self care? You are smart to keep your distance and limit your contact with your dad to only once a month. Congratulations on getting your family while still young, and managing to have a life of your own mostly far away from all the family dramas.

[Mommydoc]

You have great self awareness and good intuition. I feel sorry for your dad, but agree with your sister, that it has been his choice to stay in this situation. Continue to be empathetic and supportive to your dad, as a sounding board but definitely maintain your somewhat peripheral position, outside the drama triangle.

[todayistheday]

About why he doesn't talk to sister:
1.  Things he has said to her have gotten back to mom and he's gotten into trouble for it.  Also, Mom gatekeeps.  Dad said that any time he goes to sister's house or talks to sister, Mom either tries to prevent it or goes after both of them for full debriefings.  Dad said mom tells him not to "bother sister."
2.  Surgery:  I don't think it's elder abuse.  It's consistent with her behavior forever.  I think that there's a touch of narcissism in there.  It's taking her out of being the center of attention when someone else needs care.  To this day, at age 60+ I still have fleas from that.  She always acts like anyone who is sick is faking or should tough it out or that it's their fault and makes it miserable on whoever she is caretaking for.  I still have to remind myself that it's okay to treat my illnesses and that they are real and not necessarily my fault.  My Dad had a back injury many years ago that caused him to end up nearly paralyzed before he finally got emergency surgery.  When symptoms first appeared, she said he was being dramatic, faking, etc.  In fact it's bothering him again and she's doing the same.  I had to go there and referee when he had his surgery because she was making him so miserable.  I really didn't have to referee because she tones it down when I'm there.  That was when I learned that my sister is aware of her behavior through some conversations and things she told me.

3.  What I'm going to do.
Later this week, I will call my sister and tell her a tiny bit of what my Dad said.   And tell her to try to talk to him without Mom's knowledge and keep what's said to herself or at least away from Mom. 

4.  About him being able to get out.
40 years ago, he could.  Now could he?  I don't know.  The FOG got to him. She guilted him into staying by threatening suicide.  He didn't share that information with anyone but me and it was 30 years later when he shared it with me.  I would have suggested that he leave anyway and to contact the authorities about her thread.

Thanks for reading. I know I'm too involved.  My Dad is precious to me and I don't like seeing him suffer.  I know that there's nothing that I can do about it, even if I were to get more involved,  which also hurts.

[Couscous]

Like Turkish said, your dad is triangulating, or in other words, gossiping. There was no need whatsoever for him to tell anyone, including your sister, what he told you about your nephew. That was pure gossip and all it is going to do is create completely pointless drama — and this may well be the main reason your father didn’t leave when he had his chance — he enjoys the drama too much.

But good for you for deciding that you no longer want to participate in these dysfunctional dynamics.  My only suggestion is that you do not say a single word to your sister, and the next time your dad does this, that you make a “detriangling” move, by gently telling him that you don’t want to talk about third parties when they are not present.

For a lot more helpful tips on how to navigate this issue I highly recommend the book, The Dance of Anger by Harriet Lerner. She addresses the topic of triangulation by her mother and how she dealt with it herself on at least one of her interviews on YouTube, but I’m not sure which one. Wishing you all the best.

[todayistheday]

Like Turkish said, your dad is triangulating, or in other words, gossiping. There was no need whatsoever for him to tell anyone, including your sister, what he told you about your nephew. That was pure gossip and all it is going to do is create completely pointless drama — and this may well be the main reason your father didn’t leave when he had his chance — he enjoys the drama too much.

Actually, Mom complained directly to me about nephew.  She invited sister over for lunch the day I was there so we could be together.  I asked if BIL and nephew were home - he lives with his mom, my sister and probably will as long as possible.  BIL was working.

She said she wasn't speaking to nephew because of the time that he was rude to her.  Nephew is autistic.  He sometimes does not know how he comes across!  The incident that she's mad about happened last June.  Mom still brings up things where holds grudges against different people for things that were done 40 or 50 years ago.   In a different way from how most of us learn to forgive, but not let the door open to be hurt again.  She doesn't forgive.  Since last June is a relatively short time.  She's still mad at my Dad's late Aunt for not sending flowers or "even as much as a card" when her Grandmother died in 1967, and brings it up if the Aunt's name is ever mentioned in her presence.


I personally have a soft spot for that nephew because he's the oldest and because I know that he has a hard time due to his disability so I do like to see him when I can.

Autism vs. Borderline.   Arghhhh.