Divorce case, TPO, Kids

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Unfortunately, my ubpdh filed had me served papers about two weeks ago for divorce.  I was crushed, but ultimately, thanked him as I didn't have the guts to do it...it probably needed to be done, but I still don't want it.  I don't know what to do.  There has been a good amount of physical and emotional abuse to me by him.  Hearing all of this my lawyer told me to get a temporary protection order.  It was granted, but since the physical abuse has not been to the kids, they were not included.  Though, the kids have seen just about all of it.  I do not want a permanent protective order, which is supposed to be the next step.  My lawyer called his to ask their thoughts on continuing the TPO until the divorce is finalized, that way I am protected and it gives wiggle room for us to hopefully reconcile if possible down the road.  His lawyer told my lawyer that all of what I wrote were lies (crazy, how could I come up with so many items with so much description), that I am the abusive one (they have a video...where I did follow him around because I was at my wits end...I never laid a hand on him...though he says I threatened him, which I did say that if he filed for divorce than it was on...but in different words...and he laid hands on me later in the day), he wants 50/50 parenting time and the house...as he believes I have somewhere else to live and he doesn't (um...no I don't as I am not having all of the affairs you accuse me of so I don't have anywhere or anyone else to go be...and my kids will not be forced out of their school).  He wants the TPO gone and these actions granted...I don't know what to do!  I just want to reconcile, but he needs HELP big time...what do I do?  Ultimately I want full custody of my kids and my house...but I also want my husband back...after he does some big time work on himself...how do I get this to happen?

[Anonymous22]

Unfortunately, my ubpdh filed had me served papers about two weeks ago for divorce.  I was crushed, but ultimately, thanked him as I didn't have the guts to do it...it probably needed to be done, but I still don't want it.  I don't know what to do.  There has been a good amount of physical and emotional abuse to me by him.  Hearing all of this my lawyer told me to get a temporary protection order.  It was granted, but since the physical abuse has not been to the kids, they were not included.  Though, the kids have seen just about all of it.  I do not want a permanent protective order, which is supposed to be the next step.  My lawyer called his to ask their thoughts on continuing the TPO until the divorce is finalized, that way I am protected and it gives wiggle room for us to hopefully reconcile if possible down the road.  His lawyer told my lawyer that all of what I wrote were lies (crazy, how could I come up with so many items with so much description), that I am the abusive one (they have a video...where I did follow him around because I was at my wits end...I never laid a hand on him...though he says I threatened him, which I did say that if he filed for divorce than it was on...but in different words...and he laid hands on me later in the day), he wants 50/50 parenting time and the house...as he believes I have somewhere else to live and he doesn't (um...no I don't as I am not having all of the affairs you accuse me of so I don't have anywhere or anyone else to go be...and my kids will not be forced out of their school).  He wants the TPO gone and these actions granted...I don't know what to do!  I just want to reconcile, but he needs HELP big time...what do I do?  Ultimately I want full custody of my kids and my house...but I also want my husband back...after he does some big time work on himself...how do I get this to happen?

[BigOof]

It is often said on this forum that it takes two to reconcile but only one to drive the divorce. Once a TRO is involved, it is basically impossible to reconcile.

You're in the first stage of grief: denial. Next comes anger, bargaining, depression, and finally acceptance.

BigOof

P.S. Lawyers love TROs since they blow everything up and cause billing, billing, and more billing.

[ForeverDad]

... The kids have seen just about all of it.  I do not want a permanent protective order, which is supposed to be the next step.  My lawyer called his to ask their thoughts on continuing the TPO until the divorce is finalized, that way I am protected and it gives wiggle room for us to hopefully reconcile if possible down the road...
he wants 50/50 parenting time and the house...
He wants the TPO gone and these actions granted...I don't know what to do!  I just want to reconcile, but he needs HELP big time...what do I do?  Ultimately I want full custody of my kids and my house...but I also want my husband back...after he does some big time work on himself...how do I get this to happen?

Wow, lots to unpack here.  First, welcome, we regret that your circumstances have led you to divorce but this is a place you can find education on these concerns, learn coping skills and practical strategies.  Also be informed that your stress is understandable but you're in pretty good hands with your lawyer and the peer support here.  We've "been there, done that".  Learn and benefit from our experiences and acquired collective wisdom as well as skills, strategies and tools to move forward.

Don't stress out.  Yes, the sky feels like it is falling but, really, it's not.  Take some deep breaths.

Many here, myself included, faced this scenario.  Your spouse is not in a position to railroad you into submission.  Sure, he's making it hard now but over time you'll get a handle on many of your concerns.

If you're stressed, imagine the kids.  Are your children in counseling?  This is very helpful to have independent professionals that can support your story sourced from the kids.  Be aware that often counselors won't testify in court - to avoid lawsuits and licensing board complaints - but typically they will agree to consult with CPS and later on Custody Evaluators if those are used later during the divorce.

Your spouse will likely resist counseling for the kids and as a last dodge try to pick his own biased or gullible counselors.  However, as my lawyer told me, "courts love counseling".  Even if he fights it, courts typically will order counseling when one parent files for it.

Has a parenting schedule been ordered by the court for the kids yet?  This is (as I consider it) very important to get the best parenting time possible from the very start.  My lawyer whispered to me at the initial temp orders hearing, "Let it go, don't speak, we'll fix it later."  Well "fix it later" for me turned out to be in the final decree some two years later!  No one, neither court nor the lawyers, tried to fix the issues with the temp order as we encountered them.  That said, courts often only allocate a half hour or so for setting temp orders.  Certainly not much time.  So have your priorities on a list before you and don't get lost in the lesser details.  At the top of the list should be majority parenting (both time and authority).

You hope he seeks help for his issues and behaviors.  Sadly, that's not likely to happen.  Even if ordered by the court, and that's quite iffy, all he may do is go through the motions.  It's incredibly hard for a person to improve behaviors not to mention thinking and perceptions.  Not impossible but still incredibly hard to accomplish.  So our advice is not to count on him getting help or improving by very much.  That's reality.

That said, the benefit of divorce is to change your dynamic.  Until now he has resisted you setting normal boundaries and rules of behaviors.  However, court orders are different.  The court is now The Authority.  Setting orders, limits and boundaries is a place where court can excel.  The caveat is that you will have to push firmly for wise and strong boundaries.  Again, court doesn't want to get lost in the minutiae, it will seek only what seems important, so you need to quickly present your case on what is needed and (briefly) why.  Not just at the start, or even just during the divorce but long term.  Until the kids are grown and probably even thereafter once the kids have aged out of the system as adults.

Do not drop your TPO even if the kids aren't as yet viewed as abused needing protection.  Did you read that?  Do not drop your TPO unless that is your lawyer's firm legal advice.  For one thing your TPO gives you residency or possession of the family home, right?  That alone is great legal leverage for you.  The longer you are in the home and parenting the children there, the firmer your legal standing as a reasonably normal and qualified parent.

Reality check.  He's demanding immediate capitulation.  Not going to happen.  Divorce is a long drawn out process.  While many divorces are predicted to take a matter of months, our sort of divorces (dealing with acting-out PDs) take longer, usually at least a year, perhaps even two year and sometimes longer.  This is a marathon, yes you can start it as a sprint to secure some important things but soon it will morph into a marathon.  (My own separation and then divorce were over two years.)

I am a firm believer in marriage, I myself was married  for 15 years, 18 years by the end of the divorce, but for marriage to succeed, the spouses have to be mentally healthy, cooperative and overall reasonable.  Your spouse is not there, at least not yet and likely never.  Can you accept that reality?  Also remember that promises (your spouse's) mean nothing, actions over extended time are what count.

Finally, right now you may not perceive the light at the end of the tunnel, so to speak, but it is there.  Give it time, do your reasonable best, don't weaken your boundaries and you will glimpse it too.

Keep in touch with us and we'll help walk you through this.  You're not alone.

[Anonymous22]

Thank you!  None of this is what I want...I will do everything in my power to stay together as a family.  I feel like the kids emotional side needs to be taken into account and its not.  I do believe he wants to see the kids for positive reasons, but he has done what he has done.  Just today, he tried to continue with an agreement, by trying to pick the kids up from the daycare lady's house and school without having the agreement signed by lawyers.  We responded to his lawyer 3 times, and his has not responded to us, so the draft dropping the TPO has not been written and the orders have not been signed by either side.  I feel bad.  I want him to be able to see his kids, but I feel like I have to follow all of my lawyers rules right now...   

[Anonymous22]

Also...of course I feel like there is no way out right now!  I feel burried, I feel like 1/2 of me is missing, I feel sad, I want my husband back, I feel like I will feel like this forever.  Logically I know I won't, but I do fear it!

[ForeverDad]

Take it a day at a time, as a reality check.  Based on our experiences, there may be a possibility, though admittedly slight, that he will learn from this.  Whether the marriage can be rescued is in his hands, meaningful therapy and living it in his entire life are essential.  For many of us here it was too much for our spouses to accomplish and now they're our ex-spouses.  We've "been there, done that".  A day at a time.

Just today, he tried to continue with an agreement, by trying to pick the kids up from the daycare lady's house and school without having the agreement signed by lawyers.  We responded to his lawyer 3 times, and his has not responded to us, so the draft dropping the TPO has not been written and the orders have not been signed by either side.  I feel bad.  I want him to be able to see his kids, but I feel like I have to follow all of my lawyers rules right now...

Notice what you just wrote... He has cooperated with the TPO and the pending agreement on how to pick up and drop off the kids without broaching your protected space.  The reality is that you, he and the children can handle the terms of the TPO, whether in force or not.

But don't be too quick to set aside the TPO.  At the start that TPO is vital to set an important Boundary.  That boundary?  When you say No, it means No.  View it as your spouse's needed learning experience.  Don't feel bad about it, your stbEx needs that wake up call now.  With him not listening to you, he must listen to the court's orders.  Those orders are Boundaries, ones you tried but to which he didn't listen.  Surprise, now he's got to listen.

All of our separations and divorces were necessary because the other spouses either ignored or demolished healthy boundaries.  The problem was that our spouses did not view us as having any leverage or authority in the relationship and hence didn't listen to us.  That's where legal actions such as TPOs or divorce comes in, the family court is The Authority.  Please, please, don't feel bad about getting such help from the court and professionals.  Yes, you feel bad about how the relationship has crumbled.  But you did try your reasonable best even if you didn't have all the skills, tools and strategies and other resources we've accumulated here.  It wasn't your fault.  It just is.  One of the first signs of Grieving a Loss (your marriage) is... Acceptance.

In my separation I too had a TPO.  It was not a forever order.  It ended a few months later, at which time I started divorce proceedings.  But that TPO was crucial at that time.  (As I wrote above, don't be too quick to end your TPO.  It is there for a reason.)  Then there was the two year divorce.  During all that time — as well as a couple years afterward — our exchanges were mandated by court order in the parenting plan to be in public scenarios such as the local sheriff's office, public parking lots, outside restaurants, school, daycare, etc.  This set a needed Boundary that we must avoid private interactions that could enable negative incidents.

[Anonymous22]

I do understand that, its just that I feel like this is all going way over the top...and in the process costing us A  LOT of money.  I feel stuck.  I want him to move back in, but I know that that is not the correct thing to do right now.  If we lived together, then he could see the kids whenever, but I do see that this could also lead to bad behavior on his part that would trigger me.  He will not give in to me unless I agree to a parenting time.  I have said that I will do so at a mediation.  He will not wait until then.  I agreed to him having the kids when I am at work...that is 2 days a week.  I will NOT do an overnight.  Our daughter is still young, very very attached to me and still nurses...he knows all of this.  He is telling his lawyer that he was the primary caregiver...OK...if primary means doing 10% of the care and 2% of the housework where the kids live.  I don't get it...it is lie after lie.  Will he come out of this crap mode anytime soon?

[ForeverDad]

Meaningful therapy would take months, probably years.  This time now is sadly not about your wishes and feelings but, rather, how much he will do to improve himself.  Is starting (meaningful) therapy to address his poor behaviors a part of the agreement terms going forward?  Of course just attending therapy sessions is no assurance of appropriate future behavior, but at this point you won't know whether he would try to improve or by how much.

With the behaviors he has displayed indicating he may have BPD, you're dealing with protracted thinking and perceptions issues.  Without therapy the odds of improvement are slim to none.  Even with therapy the outcome is uncertain.  He has to truly want to change long term.  He can say it, but can he actually do it?  Only time will tell.