couple counselor says (on the side) that my spouse "checks a lot of the boxes"

[waltsm]

My spouse of 21 years and I have worked with many counselors over the years, starting from the (largely) shared understanding/narrative that as a consequence of adverse childhood experiences I'm not a very good partner. There's a lot of truth in that. Through this work, I've come to some new perspective(s) on our relationship and the difficulties we've experienced. A couple weeks ago, our counselor asked if I could meet for an individual session. In that session, she basically said, "your spouse's own description of her conduct toward you describes abuse, she presents many of the diagnostic criteria of BPD, doesn't show much capacity to engage with the realities that entails, and you've got a long, hard road ahead if you're going to try to make it work." I don't really know what to do. My spouse took off her ring and asked me to take off mine, but says she doesn't want to break up the family/household/finances, even though it's "too late" for us as a couple. I still feel the "in sickness and in health" part of our vows. But it's not good. As I've come to have what I think is a more calm, aware, self-possessed perspective, and have come to assert myself more, my spouse thinks our relationship has only getting worse, that my assertiveness is actually just an increase of defensiveness and nastiness. I just don't seem to get anywhere trying to help her see the patterns in her life. Our kids are both in high-school. I don't want it to fall apart, don't want us to break it, to fail. I just don't really know what to do at this point. Any advice?

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[babyducks]

welcome to BPD Family waltsm.

I remember making my first post here years ago and how anxious I was to hit the enter button on that post.   What I can tell you from experience is this is a good website full of people who have lived the same thing you are right now. 

It had to be hard to hear that your wife meets the criteria for BPD.    I would think it created a whole rush of emotions for you.    It seems that we often hear how we are the sole problem in our relationships, 100% at fault for everything that isn't perfect.

.As I've come to have what I think is a more calm, aware, self-possessed perspective, and have come to assert myself more, my spouse thinks our relationship has only getting worse, that my assertiveness is actually just an increase of defensiveness and nastiness.

I think this is a great thing to identify.   It shows how much effort you put into figuring things out.    and you are to be commended for that.

I just don't seem to get anywhere trying to help her see the patterns in her life. Our kids are both in high-school. I don't want it to fall apart, don't want us to break it, to fail. I just don't really know what to do at this point. Any advice?

I can make a suggestion, although it will most likely sound very counter-intuitive right now.     if you wife doesn't see the patterns in her life, and your counselor doesn't think she has much capacity to engage then perhaps take a break from trying to help her.    most of us here are helpers by nature, super helpers actually always trying to take care of the people around us.    normally that works out okay for us, except when we met up with people who have a boundless need to be helped, who are reluctant to take responsibility for themselves, who have maladaptive coping mechanisms that shift blame and hurt away from themselves.    when we hook up with someone like that it becomes an endless loop of us helping and them needing more help.    taking a break might allow things to settle down a little bit and make it more clear how much your wife can adjust to your new behavior.     what do you think?

the other thing I would suggest is that you come here and read and post.    the simple act of writing out our internal thoughts can help organize them.   and sharing with a community who understands the complexity of these relationships is a great way of getting support for you.

what do you think?

'ducks

[waltsm]

Thank you, 'ducks. One of the things I think is that it would be helpful if our counselor (or any counselor) could/would say to my wife that she "checks a lot of the boxes". Our counselor basically said, "what I'm about to say would probably end our work together if it got back to [my spouse]" so now I have this piece of information and I don't know how to share it constructively. It's pretty confusing for me.

[babyducks]

almost everyone who arrives here struggles with the 'why don't they just tell them' dilemma.

it's complicated and confusing.   one of the things that repeats over and over again is we process information and emotions much differently than our partners.   we tend to be more on the logical side, more analytical, more involved with problem solving.     so we tend to think 'oh if they know what's wrong then they will get help and work on fixing things'.    however, evidence and experience points out that is almost never the case with people who are somewhere on the BPD spectrum.    they hear the diagnosis either as an attack...you think there is something wrong with me and having something wrong with them is very nearly intolerable.   or they hear the diagnosis as a threat... something that challenges their unstable sense of self.   

I've read literally hundreds of stories here, and with very few exceptions (like a handful)  sharing the BPD diagnosis is almost never received well.   members arrive here with an Eureka moment, thinking and feeling - oh finally I've a name for this and maybe a path forward.  they share with their partner or spouse and are stunned when the reaction is violent and disproportional.   which means the understanding of what drives BPD was still pretty preliminary.    over simplfying by a lot,   pwBPD feel damaged and broken and now you are telling them... yes you are damaged and broken and the pwBPD(person with BPD) reacts by rejecting the information, the messenger and the horse he rode in on.

I would suggest you spend some time here,   talking with others, reading, identifying the unique ways that BPD presents in your wife before you make any decision on sharing or not.   

so now I have this piece of information and I don't know how to share it constructively. It's pretty confusing for me.

 

can I ask why you feel you have to share it ?   constructively or otherwise?

[waltsm]

I don't exactly feel like I "have to" share it, but for a lot of reasons it seems well worth considering. As a general rule, we don't withhold medical information from the subject/person/patient. And if it could increase my spouse's self-understanding, help reduce the pain and confusion she feels, and that I feel, that would be a very good (necessary) thing. I really don't want to condemn or "diagnose" my spouse, particularly not as a way to avoid seeing, taking responsibility for, and improving my own role in our relationship and its difficulties. But I feel like some more "mutuality" would really be helpful.

[Cat Familiar]

I’ll echo babyducks’ comments about how counterproductive it is to inform our partners that we believe that they have BPD. Here is an article about getting a loved one into therapy, which often is very difficult when our partner has BPD. https://bpdfamily.com/content/how-to-get-borderline-into-therapy But you and your wife have already done that.

However you mention that you’ve had multiple counselors during this time and that you have accepted the blame that you’re not “a very good partner.” I would argue otherwise in that you’ve been willing to look into your own past history and work to make things better, but that’s another conversation.

That you’ve had several counselors and that the blame has been pinned on you (I would guess your wife is responsible both for *counselor shopping* as well as pointing to you as the *problem*), is par for the course when involved with a BPD spouse. Accountability and accepting responsibility for behavior and emotions is not a strong suite for people with BPD.

Toward the end of the article, you will read why informing an individual of a BPD diagnosis is counterproductive, as babyducks has pointed out. Your current counselor has also validated this point.

What makes you feel compelled to share this information with her, knowing that it could both be hurtful to her as well as compound your relationship difficulties?

[babyducks]

As a general rule, we don't withhold medical information from the subject/person/patient.

fair point.  mental health information does seem to fall into its own unique category.   there is a possibility that sharing the diagnosis could actively make things worse.    which seems to be the point the counselor is making.

And if it could increase my spouse's self-understanding, help reduce the pain and confusion she feels, and that I feel, that would be a very good (necessary) thing.  be helpful.

sharing information is different than sharing a diagnosis.   it was suggested to me that rather than identifying the label, which could be shaming to focus on the behaviors and feelings.

this was my experience, yours could be different.   

rather than saying 'Hey I know you have BPD'.   I carefully choose a time and place and said to my Then Partner Now Ex,    'I know it bothers you when I go bike riding (my exercise) even when you are at work and couldn't possibly be with me.   I've really thought about this, and I think there might be some fear of abandonment going on.'    My Ex had a real thing about knowing where I was, who I was with, being able to reach me at a moments notice and controlling my plans.    I thought it would be quite helpful to both of us if we could reduce the tension about my location and activities.    I was pretty sure it came from a fear of abandonment, if I wasn't in sight or in touching distance she felt insecure.

My Ex's response to that was 'I know all about fear of abandonment and that's not happening here.'    and then she proceeded to shut the conversation down.

I mention that to illustrate the Anosognosia and Abnegation that can often coexist with mental health concerns.    Those are real things with very real impacts.  They require a plan to deal with. 

is it possible to start small?   sharing a behavior or a trait that she is already aware of and willing to address.   you would want to carefully work your way through this being very cautious to not escalate things into negative territory.

'ducks

[waltsm]

Thank you, Cat and 'ducks.

Having read the article you linked, Cat, and more on the site, I can pretty easily get my brain around a lot of reasons not to say to my spouse, "our counselor says you're BPD" (or some variant). (Also, ftr, Cat, you're exactly right about my spouse having been our counselor "shopper" and about my shortcomings having been topic #1.) In a number of respects, keeping the phrase to myself while trying to maintain (rebuild) trust (already badly eroded) will entail many of the same skills that I and our children have developed over the years to try to help my wife and our family manage/cope with her intense "emotionality". (Having experienced some classic adversities in my own childhood, I feel bad when I see our children displaying what seem to me to be clear skills and strategies to help manage their mother's emotions and behaviors, bad for not having better protected them from it or done a better job helping her myself so they wouldn't have to.)

The current topic under discussion with our counselor is how to discuss our new "separated" marital status to our kids (even though she wants to keep the other parts of our lives together). I'm a bit stumped by this in a few different ways: in our solo session, the couple's counselor asked me if I think my wife really wants this separation. I said "no". The counselor said she didn't think so either. So it's just really emotionally/cognitively messy for me to be engaging in an expensive facilitated conversation about something I don't think either of us really wants, that I don't think is particularly practical/practicable or in our family's best interests, and that I think is based on flawed/unwell thinking. (I confessed to the counselor that alongside my intense desire to see my wife (ex?) experience a lot less pain and confusion, I feel like her persistence in constructing our separation is in some ways disingenuous and manipulative - like the most extreme ploy yet to get me to change my bad ways.) I just really don't know how I'll make my own decision about what's best for our whole family of four. Like the counselor said, "...a long hard road ahead."

[kells76]

Hi waltsm, just chiming in with the others to welcome you here. This is a good place to land and get your feet under you as you figure out what you want to do in your relationship, and how to have it be the "least bad" possible under the circumstances.

This is an interesting (and, in certain ways, typical) situation you're in:

The current topic under discussion with our counselor is how to discuss our new "separated" marital status to our kids (even though she wants to keep the other parts of our lives together). I'm a bit stumped by this in a few different ways: in our solo session, the couple's counselor asked me if I think my wife really wants this separation. I said "no". The counselor said she didn't think so either. So it's just really emotionally/cognitively messy for me to be engaging in an expensive facilitated conversation about something I don't think either of us really wants, that I don't think is particularly practical/practicable or in our family's best interests, and that I think is based on flawed/unwell thinking. (I confessed to the counselor that alongside my intense desire to see my wife (ex?) experience a lot less pain and confusion, I feel like her persistence in constructing our separation is in some ways disingenuous and manipulative - like the most extreme ploy yet to get me to change my bad ways.) I just really don't know how I'll make my own decision about what's best for our whole family of four. Like the counselor said, "...a long hard road ahead."

The vibe I'm getting is that your W may somehow want you to be the one to "say we're separated" or to take the lead on separating, even though both you and the C sense that she doesn't actually want it?

It's like there's a rigid, scripted drama that your W "needs", which isn't healthy, but is perhaps familiar and comfortable to her -- she comes up with a scenario ("we need to separate in areas ABC but not XYZ"), but doesn't do anything tangible to make it so, and "expects" you to do all the legwork, and also will be unhappy with you and blame you for it if you do things for her that she said she wanted ("you didn't fight for us, you separated us, you should've known").

What would it be like for you to not be the one making or participating in the "we're separated" announcement? What if, if she really wanted that to happen, you gave her the gift of allowing her to take responsibility and initiative to do that?

I'm getting this feeling from you of "I guess we have to announce it to the kids, even though I don't actually want to be separated". Maybe, though... you don't have to participate in that. Let her do the legwork if she wants to have tangible actions attached to her words of "I want to separate". If you don't want to, why should you have to do that for her?

It'd likely be uncomfortable and different. It would also be a way to put her work back on her, which could be a change in a positive direction.

I wonder what your C might think of that approach, where if you check in with yourself and you don't want what your W is saying she wants... don't participate in making it happen for her -- that's her job, not yours.

[waltsm]

Thank you, Kells76 (and Cat and 'ducks).

I said in a joint session pretty much exactly what you're suggesting, Kells, basically: "You [spouse] have an unhealthy need for "agreement" between us. [This is very close to the root of her frustrations with me - that I have a different idea about how closely/fully/mutually two people can be or can reasonably expect to be joined/married/understood by each other.] Don't ask me to participate in constructing the demise of our marriage. That's not my program. It's yours. If that's what you want, then just own it." But I haven't really managed to hold that boundary. Another similar example is that even though our C told me that I shouldn't take my ring off just because my wife asked me to, if I don't want to, I did it anyway. There are a lot of ways that I feel self-reproach for not having asserted myself in our relationship. Perversely, I'd say this lack of assertion is also very close to what my wife has felt to be disengagement, disinterest, lack of commitment, et c..., in effect my not keeping faith with our marital vows to each other. I'd have to say, by now, that I've responded to the displeasure and dissatisfaction with our relationship that my wife has expressed over the years, with feelings of inadequacy as a husband and partner - which of course has had a very negative impact on our intimate relations, which of course has been painful for her, pain compounded by my inability to speak with her about it. So I guess I'm also just really trying to keep my own work in close view while I try to figure out how to support her health and happiness more effectively, whether we stay married, stay living together or not. And I'm not exactly clear what sort of resource our C has offered me in pointing out BPD, except that I'm really grateful to have found this board, really grateful to you all for sharing your time and insights with me.