Prepping for SD26's visit

[livednlearned]

I wish this wasn't happening, but I am spinning out in anticipation of SD26's summer visit in a few weeks.

You would think I was getting back-to-back root canals and a colonoscopy the same day.

Why am I so affected by her?

Maybe it's arrogant to think I would eventually "get over" my issues with her through therapy and reading and learning here. I came into my relationship with her carrying baggage from FOO (BPD sibling) and a BPDx husband. Is that just too much to overcome? Should I be grateful for the little bit of clarity I've managed to carve out and settle for the *mere* waves of dread I have when I think about spending time with her?

I am just exhausted thinking about her visit.

[GaGrl]

Is there an option to tell your H you simply aren't up to participating in the visit, then absent yourself as much as possible?

[Notwendy]

I can relate!

When my mother's family called me to tell me to come help her move out of the house, I felt so stressed and anxious over that. I didn't want to leave it all to them and also wanted to get some heirlooms/memories- especially photos- from the house so they would not get lost in the move, but even with that, I was nervous about the visit.

As soon as I got off the elevator on the way to my mother's new room in assisted living, I panicked.

I think we can rationalize the situation- through therapy and here. I think this helps, but I think we will have feelings and fears to be aware of. Something about your SD reminds you of these feelings and situations you grew up with in addition to her behavior being difficult as well.

Since this is your H's wish to spend time with his D, any way the two of them can have a daddy daughter vacation together for even part of the time or the whole time to minimize her contact with you? It would be great if you could not do the visit at all, but it's his D and his home too, so that could be a difficult thing to refuse.

Or a "business" trip for you? ( at a nearby Airbnb). Or some way to get some time away from them.

[kells76]

I wish this wasn't happening, but I am spinning out in anticipation of SD26's summer visit in a few weeks.

You would think I was getting back-to-back root canals and a colonoscopy the same day.

Why am I so affected by her?

Maybe it's arrogant to think I would eventually "get over" my issues with her through therapy and reading and learning here. I came into my relationship with her carrying baggage from FOO (BPD sibling) and a BPDx husband. Is that just too much to overcome? Should I be grateful for the little bit of clarity I've managed to carve out and settle for the *mere* waves of dread I have when I think about spending time with her?

I am just exhausted thinking about her visit.

Have you ever felt like "if I just work hard enough I can move past this, so if I'm not moving past this/getting over this -- if this isn't getting better -- then I must not be working hard enough?" Curious if that's part of what's going on or not.

How long is the trip for, and where is she staying?

[Riv3rW0lf]

There is only so much our conscious mind and ego can control ... There is a whole other level to our Self that we don't have access to... Give yourself only kindness and compassion, it's normal to experience raising anxiety when facing a threat. Your SD is a threat to you. Your rational mind can tell itself all it wants how she cannot actually hurt you, how you understand the illness so you can protect yourself... But I believe your unconscious sees the signs and override the conscious mind : "what are you talking about being all rational ? She clearly keeps attacking me, this is a threat!" And enters stress and anxiety. And to some extent, it is right. She is not safe... So...Not your fault... It's not a lack of trying either... there is only so much we can control... I second others : any way you can also be on vacation elsewhere while she visits?

[livednlearned]

Is there an option to tell your H you simply aren't up to participating in the visit, then absent yourself as much as possible?

This is typically my preferred go-to  

But I can't really do this. Not without feeling like an  hole. My adult son (21) lives with us and H is so unbelievably patient, respectful and kind to him. S21 had health issues for 4 years and you could not ask for a kinder step-parent. It sort of gets to my issue, which is feeling like SD26 problems drive me to be someone I'm naturally not inclined to be.

I also solved one problem by creating another. We invited SS23 to come too. It was never spoken but H and I both learned these visits are more tolerable when SD26 stays elsewhere. It's easier to justify when two kids visit since we only have room for one. SD26 and SS23 are staying in a rental/condo nearby.

I can get out of some stuff but it's a bit more complicated with SS23 here. We have a good relationship. H and I both have boys on the spectrum. I'm a bit more attuned to the boys and in turn they seem to like my company. I'm planning to do some things just with SS23. Interesting but not surprising, he finds SD26 all but intolerable. He often says to me, "SD26 is like my mom."  

Something about your SD reminds you of these feelings and situations you grew up with in addition to her behavior being difficult as well.

A lot of my feelings about SD26 track back to my mother, which is interesting.

My mother doesn't like to be alone but she doesn't experience fear about being alone. Whereas SD26 behaves in frantic ways to avoid being alone. That's the primary difference between the two. They are both aggressive and waif-like, which creates situations I find really hard to navigate. Although some of the feelings I have about SD26's aggressions are more connected to feelings I have had dealing with a BPD brother. He never met a boundary he couldn't roll over and he is by nature aggressive.

Have you ever felt like "if I just work hard enough I can move past this, so if I'm not moving past this/getting over this -- if this isn't getting better -- then I must not be working hard enough?"

That's an interesting thought. Almost like perfectionist thinking about healing?

I'll have to think more on that. It feels like something must be broken in me because the situation is not all that bad. It's not a great situation, but it's not a terrible one.

Give yourself only kindness and compassion, it's normal to experience raising anxiety when facing a threat. Your SD is a threat to you. Your rational mind can tell itself all it wants how she cannot actually hurt you, how you understand the illness so you can protect yourself... But I believe your unconscious sees the signs and override the conscious mind : "what are you talking about being all rational ? She clearly keeps attacking me, this is a threat!" And enters stress and anxiety. And to some extent, it is right. She is not safe... So...Not your fault... It's not a lack of trying either... there is only so much we can control... I second others : any way you can also be on vacation elsewhere while she visits?

Thanks Riv3rW0lf, you're right.

I wonder sometimes if there is a mild kind of ptsd here but not the kind I experienced following physical violence or a car accident. It doesn't quite register in the same way but it's not far off from perceiving a threat that isn't entirely there or has been neutralized.

It's hard to shrug off ptsd. I couldn't even get to it with talk therapy. It took more somatic types of therapy to help unpack it.

[zachira]

It is natural to not want to be around your SD26 after how badly she has treated you and how being around her affects you and your relationships with other family members. If it were up to you, you would not have the kind of person that SD26 is in your life at all, and perhaps this is why your emotions are so strong about her visit; it is like you are being told you can't do this anymore which I realize is not an option. One of the biggest lies we are told is that empathy is about taking on the emotions of others. In reality, it is only safe to mirror the emotions of others when the emotions are healthy and the relationship with that person is healthy. There are certain situations in which we want to engage our mirror neurons to connect with others and unsafe situations in which we need to distance ourselves quickly to not get overwhelmed by the unhealthy emotions of another person. It can help to have a time limit on how long you are with a person who triggers you, also to keep a physical distance and do everything you can to set up barriers to not take on the unhealthy emotions of others that are their responsiblity to acknowledge and process. I know you are well read from all the books you have recommended to other members. You might find helpful the book: "The Psychophysiology of Compassion Fatigue and Vicarious Trama, Help for the Helper: Self-Care for Managing Burnout and Stress" by Babette Rothschild, a well respected trauma therapist.

[livednlearned]

One of the biggest lies we are told is that empathy is about taking on the emotions of others. In reality, it is only safe to mirror the emotions of others when the emotions are healthy and the relationship with that person is healthy. There are certain situations in which we want to engage our mirror neurons to connect with others and unsafe situations in which we need to distance ourselves quickly to not get overwhelmed by the unhealthy emotions of another person.

zachira, thank you so much for this. I can't tell you how useful this is to take in right now. I took a look at the book you recommended, just a sample, and can see how helpful it might be. I also think the way you paraphrased the main takeaway is so helpful on its own. It really feels like this is what I've been trying to work out.

It can help to have a time limit on how long you are with a person who triggers you, also to keep a physical distance and do everything you can to set up barriers to not take on the unhealthy emotions of others that are their responsibility to acknowledge and process.

My time limit appears to be 8 seconds   

[Notwendy]

Does your H know how you feel? I think I'd want to plan a solo vacation for the time she's visiting- like mountains or beach and relax.

[Methuen]

Plan a "girl's trip" - for you and your friends. 

Letting him deal with her 100% without you around as a buffer, could be a productive strategy.

[livednlearned]

Does your H know how you feel? I think I'd want to plan a solo vacation for the time she's visiting- like mountains or beach and relax.

I have really internalized something when it come to this.

It would violate my values to take that time for myself when H has give so much to helping raise S21.

It would take pages and pages to describe the ways he has gone above and beyond. H is a physician and S21 was in and out of the hospital for 4 years. I have no words for how grateful I am H was there through all of that. Not just his medical help but his kindness. He and S21 are so different and probably won't ever have a close relationship, and that doesn't stop H from being kind and supportive. After what I went through with n/BPDx, we definitely won the love and marriage lottery.

Add to that the consequences of my meddling with SD26's trip already. If SD26 came on her own and I hadn't intervened to make sure SS23 came too, it would be easier to tap out and do my own thing.

Taking care of myself makes sense and I'm less freaked out when I put my own needs first but there is a line somewhere when I'm not listening to what my values are, and that's the line I see when I think about taking off.

I'm trying to figure out if my feelings are more about: 1. Let go, this is one week; 2. learn strategies for the things that happen between me and SD26 that are so triggering; 3. go back to therapy and get to the bottom of this.

I don't think I can realistically go away at this point.

When I look at what my dread is about, it's the relentlessness of SD26's need mixed with her fear I will take away H's love. I get both from her, sometimes from one minute to the next. She has a need for excessive caretaking and then what goes with that is this weird relentless scrutiny of my every move, my every facial expression. I've never had anyone in my life like this.

There used to be someone on the boards named Grey Kitty years ago whose wife (BPD) described how she would stare at a girl in her class to drive her nuts. It's a way to invade someone's space with impunity. SD26 does that. We used to live in a home with an open floor plan and any time I was in the kitchen she would sit at the counter and watch. It was super weird and unnerving. She had a habit of asking if I was sad, was I upset about something, did something happen, etc. and it felt like she was enjoying any distress I might feel.

A therapist I saw at the time who had worked with BPD clients and then retired from that work advised me to shrug my shoulders and feign confusion. Meaning, don't let SD26 in even that much.

H tells me horror stories about the kinds of things his BPDx wife would tell the kids to do or say to him to undermine him in the family and it's similar to that. It's like she taught SD26 to use social norms of being nice to hide enjoyment when someone's hurt. I had a lot of distress about S21's health and SD26 was living with us through part of that. I don't think she liked that S21 was sick but it felt like she enjoyed twisting the knife when she saw me upset. It's hard to describe and even just writing it down makes me feel like I'm the crazy one.

It helped what zachira wrote because it makes me realize I don't owe her my empathy. Sometimes her behaviors make me feel nuts inside and I think perhaps that's a sign I need to shut things down and use that as a cue to walk away. But I could honestly walk away every 3 seconds.

I feel like it's important to not show I'm affected by her but maybe I have to stop caring about that.

I wish this didn't make me feel so neurotic.

[zachira]

The best advice my therapist ever gave me was to focus on how I was feeling inside when in the presence of disordered people. It made me realize how I had been trained as a caretaker to parent my mother with BPD and to some degree my father with strong narcissistic traits, without any regard for my feelings. Prior to following my therapist's advice, I ignored my feelings most of the time, and became overly emotionally involved in observing the emotions and feelings of others to the point of becoming frequently emotionally overwhelmed when in the presence of disordered people or for long periods after toxic interactions. I am still a work in progress in making sure that the people I am around are interested in connecting with me while learning to walk away sooner when I become the dumping grounds for how badly another person feels inside.
I think that maybe it is time to develop a plan for how you will handle being in the presence of SD26 without becoming emotionally overwhelmed. You say you can only tolerate a few seconds of SD26 which makes sense as with all you have been through over the years; your mind and body would probably like nothing better than to walk away permanently from people like SD26. I have so much admiration for how so many member here have learned to manage the constant terrible behaviors of their disordered family members and how over time they have become less triggered with so much intensity and for less time. What are some things that you do now that are calming and relaxing for you? How often and how long will you have to be in the presence of SD26 when she in your home? Will you ever have to be alone with her? When my brother was the caretaker for my mother with BPD for many years, he became a night owl and saw very little of mom who had hired caretakers in her later years. What do you think?

[GaGrl]

Lnl, you seem to be putting a great deal of energy into how NOT to let her see that her behaviors bother you. I know that is a tactic -- eventually, you are then supposed to reach a point that the behaviors truly no longer bother you.

That doesn't appear to be happening.

What about a different approach in which you quietly and calmly tell her that XYZ behavior is inappropriate or bothers you, and you are going to absent yourself?

Would you see that as a "win" for DD26 in her imagined contest for H's love and attention? Or would it be your truth and an honest way to manage stressful time around her?

[livednlearned]

What are some things that you do now that are calming and relaxing for you?

I have a sporadic mindfulness practice that I started up again. I noticed I was winding up. Body scans are the most helpful when I'm very stressed.

I exercise and do a lot of hiking. I have a super cute puppy 

How often and how long will you have to be in the presence of SD26 when she in your home? Will you ever have to be alone with her?

I'm getting better at watching for signs that we'll be alone together.

Ugh. I have done this with my brother. With my n/BPDx. And now SD26. I am so very, very, very tired of this. It makes me so angry that I have spent time avoiding my own home because of a disordered family member. I spent so much of my child hood in the woods or at other people's houses, or at the mall (when that was a thing). Anything to not be home alone with BPD brother. Then the same with my ex. I would spend all day finding things to do outside the home even when it was ungodly hot and most people were inside cooling off.

When my brother was the caretaker for my mother with BPD for many years, he became a night owl and saw very little of mom who had hired caretakers in her later years. What do you think?

  I have this picture of me doing all my regular daily activities at night then sleeping during the day when SD26 is here.

I like the suggestion to focus on how I'm feeling in my body. I haven't done EMDR but I did do somatic experiencing therapy and that was profoundly helpful.

For a few years during the height of my healing and recovery I tried to make a point of not putting people at ease in awkward situations. I'd pay attention to my breath, my body, try to listen to what I was hearing.

Maybe it just takes a long time to learn how to stay present and not feel triggered.

[zachira]

It does take a long time to feel less triggered, and when triggered with less intensity and for shorter periods of time. The challenge with disordered people is that they dump their emotions on to others to avoid their own feelings, and there is an endless amount of new scenarios in which they find ways to upset others. The cure for dealing with disordered people we don't have to have in our lives is to go no contact. There is no real cure for the disordered people we can't avoid except to limit contact with them as much as possible while learning and practicing coping strategies.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I wonder if maybe it would help to switch the focus of the trigger. In the sense where... I am slowly realizing that being triggered is a body reaction stemming from the primal unconscious system seeing dangers, and letting us know about it. So, being triggered, is not always a bad thing. It becomes a bad thing when we don't take the time to observe and process it, and when we remain trapped in it, when we react to it, instead of thinking : ho look at that, my body sees dangers, where are they and what can I do to feel safe again?

My father was visiting yesterday, and we talked about a formation he attended with his wife on Relational Intelligence. She told me many times about it. Have you ever read on it? From what I gathered through my step mother, who is a trained psychologist, Relational Intelligence is based on the science of "The body keeps the score" and, while I am unclear exactly what they teach, my stepmother often mentions "finding back our safety", and I think they provide tools for that. Maybe it would help? I am planing on looking more into it, personally.

So that, instead of looking for ways to "not be triggered", I would like to start working WITH the triggers to render conscious the red flags that are creating the triggers faster. And observe, and accept and find back safety. Rinse and repeat.

Now, in your case, I don't know how helpful this would be since you know very well already why you are being triggered and how unsafe your SD is... But maybe the part about finding safety again might help. I don't know... or I know that some psychologist, using relational intelligence, will work to go back to the root of the trigger in the past to release some of it as well. But I don't think the triggers ever completely disappear? But they are maybe a bit less intense over time. You've already done a lot of work on yourself too, so... Might be that this won't help either.

But I do believe that looking to never be triggered again is the pursuit of perfectionnism (and I tend to be like that as well), but is ultimately unlikely to happen. It might be much easier to accept the triggers, know why they are there, and know that they are not under your control, it's the body reacting. So the question becomes : how to find safety again ? Knowing that it might never be possible to not feel triggered by SD, and it's ok.

[livednlearned]

I'll look into that, Relational Intelligence.

It's interesting that this is becoming about triggers.

There was daily physical abuse in my FOO. Violent abuse that got worse in my teens and only dialed down when I left. It was relentless, my brother hardly left the house. After I left home, every time I returned for family stuff he was there, waiting for a moment I was alone to hit or kick or punch or slam me into a wall.

It is tricky, the perfection thing. Because on one hand I carry that violence in my body. I would like to think I can move on. Ignoring it didn't work. Paying attention to it has helped, especially when it was safe to do so, post divorce. But there are still problems, I can tell -- like triggers connected to SD26.

This is a complicated thing to describe, but when my n/BPDx was abusive to me, I had a rationale built deep into my identity. It has been there since childhood. Not conscious, just something I can now recognize: I'm strong, therefore I couldn't be a victim.

If you don't see you're a victim, it is hard to spot abuse.

It was watching n/BPDx abuse our son that changed everything. I had nothing hard-wired into self-identity to defend against that.

That was the beginning of unraveling what I guess is a false self.

After my marriage ended, I developed physical symptoms that had no explanation, at least not on x-rays or whatnot. Like not being able to turn my head. I got lightheaded a lot, for no reason. A mindfulness instructor encouraged me to see a polarity therapist. I'm a scientist by training and that felt a bit woo woo, but nothing else was working so I tried it.

Polarity therapy worked on me. After that came somatic experiencing therapy. Both made it possible to feel emotions I pushed down. 

I can be a perfectionist in some parts of my life but when it comes to physical things, I have been deeply blocked. It's like returning to a place I hadn't visited since childhood. None of this was really impeding my life but I don't know if I have a high threshold. My sibling was not sadistic but the violence was relentless and severe.

In every way I have a better life than I could have imagined. I can even see how living with SD26 moved my growth forwards because she forced me to work on things I blamed on n/BPDx that were actually mine.

I think, though, that she has become a symbol of something. She either represents a souvenir from body-based trauma or a sign there is something left to learn.

I think I associate her lack of boundaries with violence. If not violence, then at least abuse. She is both triggering the association and at the same time not responsible for it.

[Riv3rW0lf]

I think I associate her lack of boundaries with violence. If not violence, then at least abuse. She is both triggering the association and at the same time not responsible for it.

Just another take, to see how you respond to it :

She is responsible for it... Because she is abusive.

She would likely trigger each and every single one of us. Healthy people would know better than to associate with her. And people pleaser would become suck in the abuse until they learn better.

You know better. So you get the signals. You get triggered, because you know she is unsafe.

I feel the same way with my neighbor. It's not at the same level, but it is the same idea. She triggers me badly. And this is my body reminding me to stay away from her. When my rational being talks with her, I leave the discussion still feeling uneasy, because  my body sees the signs, and it tries to tell me : "by the way, all fine and dandy that you are willing to associate with her for your children, but do NOT open up. Keep it casual Riverwolf, because you know better now, she is unsafe. "

The triggers are actually helpful reminders. The trick is to find safety again : "yes I hear you. I am not letting her close, let's breathe now."

It is not on you to stop the triggers, the triggers might always be there, they can actually be helpful. It would be on her to stop the abuse. But because she has a PD, this is impossible. Which bring us back to : decreasing the amount of time with her and under abuse. And how can you keep yourself safe?  How to maintain a feeling of safety when she is there. You can be both triggered AND safe. Triggers can be intuition. I do believe we need to look at triggers differently..albeit I don't know what kind of triggers you are dealing with, and maybe we are using the same term but see triggers differently you and I.

But I do believe it possible to feel anxious, understand where it comes from, find safety, and be "on guard" but okay... By connecting to assertiveness, and good, healthy coping mechanism. The anxiety might always be in the background, because there IS a threat. But we can remain in control, and welcome it as our body trying to keep us safe. And not as something bad to eradicate...

You should never feel completely safe when there is a threat, else you will get burned.

So how to act instead of react, how to gain access to power and safety, in front of a threat we are willing to see and confront.

It would be in line with self-compassion, observation, and acceptance. Which are all parts of mindfulness... Welcoming it for what it is : protection; our body's way of protecting us.

It does bring you back in your past, which is awful, but you are not a teenager anymore so you have tools to find safety now, that you didn't have back then. The key would then be not to stop the triggers, but to understand, welcome and work with them...

[livednlearned]

Do you think there is greater threat from a trigger when you are changing a pattern?

I all but hid from SD26 when she lived with us. I locked the door to my bedroom and created a sanctuary. I wore noise-canceling headphones to tune her out. I listened to podcasts on headphones in the kitchen to get privacy when she felt invasive, watching me. I said no to excursions with H when SD26 came along. I greatly decreased validation and increased boundaries, non-verbal and some barely verbal.

I'd like to not run and hide.

This is a new way to deal with the trigger maybe. It could be why I am spinning out so much.

I have some things in place to help me in a few weeks. SS23 will be here and that dilutes things. Other than one night they are staying somewhere else. There are other smaller things in place, and H knows how I feel.

It feels like inner child kind of stuff. There is a book called Games People Play that describes the kinds of things that SD26 and BPD mom both do. I remember reading it years ago and thinking it would be hard to respond in some of the ways advised in the book. I wasn't there.

I'd like to think I could call out the behaviors in a way that doesn't put me in a one-down position. We'll. see. "SD26, you're looking at me a lot. How come?" She does something weird where I'll go to walk by her and she moves toward me. "SD26 how come you do that?"

I feel like if I could get my body calm it would be easier to point these things out. So much of our dynamic is covert. Pointing it out without having my triggers go off would make me feel like I was confronting it in a healthy way, and I also understand your point that the triggers are helping, too. She's a hot stove.

Thanks for sticking around to let me go down this rabbit hole. I feel neurotic. I feel grateful being able to try and put this in perspective with people who have context.

[Riv3rW0lf]

Do you think there is greater threat from a trigger when you are changing a pattern?

I don't think the threat is greater because, there is no real threat, just an abusive woman being abusive, unless you think she would be the kind to actually hurt you physically?

Else, I think there is a greater "feeling of threat", because of the raising anxiety of doing something you've never done in the past.

What got you through your brother abuse was avoidance : fleeing. He stripped you from your fight response. You lost it. So all you know now, is that avoidance helps you to survive. And trying out the fight response (assertiveness) is bound to make you feel anxious. But I do believe the more you use is, the more you will desensitize yourself to it, and the more you will be able to contact your power and get it back.

I believe that, because this is what I experienced doing judo. Fighting people physically. Throwing them. Getting thrown. Choking people, getting them to submit to me, learning how to break arms... It is crazy how it changed me. I still get triggered. But I inhabit my space, and I am NOT moving anymore. I would never hurt anyone. I just feel much less scared now, so maybe harder to intimidate by others. It doesn't mean I started intimidating people either. I just don't allow people disrespecting me anymore.

If my neighbor tries to intimidate me, which she did, I know it, I feel it, I do feel triggered, but I stand tall and I assert myself. Bring it. I am standing firm now. And it helps. She backed off, and now, for some reasons, she looks uncomfortable around me. Her attitude is slowly changing, because she is getting is : I am not a people pleaser, and I will not play your little game anymore.

I know not everyone can do martial arts, and I don't think one needs to do it to get back their fight response. But I do believe, firmly, that the main reason we feel this triggered and anxious, is because we lost our fight response, and a desensitization will have to happen to get it back, and the only way to desensitize ourselves, is to do it.

When she blocks you, you know what is happening, this is intimidation, you know it... How about standing firm and telling her : "Move out of the way. *with a smile*" Not ask why. Tell her to move out of the way. Intimidation -> Assertiveness. See what happens. Will she escalate? In front of everyone? Call you out? What is the absolute worst that could happen? If you are anything like me, you will feel stressed, you might feel on the verge of a panic attack... But it does go away... The more we do it, the more of our fight response we are getting back.

I would only use question when the attack is very subtle. And I would ask it LOUD, in front of everyone : "What exactly do you mean by that comment?" BPD don't like being exposed. They like to appear as victim, but people need to believe them. Asking a question out loud bring out the attack into light in front of everyone. She will backtrack. And if she doesn't : she exposed herself, and all you did, was ask a question.

The triggers will always be there... The anxiety might decrease though. Maybe you will feel a bit more anger, which is incredibly healthy, a good way to assert ourselves. We have been robbed of it when we were children. And we need to get it back. But it is stressful, because we are not used to it... We know avoidance got us through, right? What if I die if I assert myself? I don't know if this answer is safe... Well... it is. I promise. I support you wholeheartedly through this new pattern you want to use. Assertiveness. You deserve to get your power back.

[zachira]

You have said that SD26 will be staying in a condo nearby. What does this mean in terms of the number of hours of potential contact you will have with her in a 24 hour period? Can SD26 just walk into your house at any time during a 24 hour period? Does she have the keys to your house? Some families allow close family members to come to the house at any time except bedtime hours, while others require advance notice. What are the rules for visits to your home with your SD26 and other children or are there no rules/boundaries?

[livednlearned]

What got you through your brother abuse was avoidance : fleeing. He stripped you from your fight response. You lost it. So all you know now, is that avoidance helps you to survive. And trying out the fight response (assertiveness) is bound to make you feel anxious. But I do believe the more you use is, the more you will desensitize yourself to it, and the more you will be able to contact your power and get it back

What a helpful way to phrase this. I seem to learn this and forget, learn and forget. I have gotten much better at being assertive. It's such a mess inside, and selfishly I want to understand and then immediately be able to do. It doesn't work like that.

I stand tall and I assert myself. Bring it. I am standing firm now. And it helps. She backed off, and now, for some reasons, she looks uncomfortable around me. Her attitude is slowly changing, because she is getting is : I am not a people pleaser, and I will not play your little game anymore.

This I find fascinating. Riv3rW0lf, if it's not comfortable to share, please don't feel compelled to answer this. However, I'm curious if you were you physically abused growing up?

I had an aha moment reading your response that maybe explains a decade living outdoors. I'm not a big person and ended up working outdoors leading people on wilderness trips. I love being outside but it's not entirely clear why I felt the need to work outdoors. Maybe it's for similar reasons, to feel there is something in the physicality of enduring demands. My partner at the time used to comment on how my clothes were always so big, and it wasn't until my 30s I realized I had this mental image that I was much bigger than I am. 

I know not everyone can do martial arts, and I don't think one needs to do it to get back their fight response. But I do believe, firmly, that the main reason we feel this triggered and anxious, is because we lost our fight response, and a desensitization will have to happen to get it back, and the only way to desensitize ourselves, is to do it.

I have some fear about doing martial arts that I suspect is rooted in fear about what it will bring up. Body work makes me realize it doesn't ever fully go away but the idea of revisiting those memories in any vivid way is just ...

When she blocks you, you know what is happening, this is intimidation, you know it... How about standing firm and telling her : "Move out of the way. *with a smile*" Not ask why. Tell her to move out of the way. Intimidation -> Assertiveness. See what happens. Will she escalate? In front of everyone? Call you out? What is the absolute worst that could happen? If you are anything like me, you will feel stressed, you might feel on the verge of a panic attack... But it does go away... The more we do it, the more of our fight response we are getting back.

I will try. My goal is to set the tone for this visit at the very beginning. If I carry a sense of myself that I'm not someone to intimidate, hopefully it won't be so bad. I did that during our last visit. SD26 is someone who hugs a lot. When she lived with us, she would hug when someone had gone into another room, or some other part of the house. It was too much for me, especially with her. That's my goal for this trip, too, to not hug if I don't feel like it.

The triggers will always be there... The anxiety might decrease though. Maybe you will feel a bit more anger, which is incredibly healthy, a good way to assert ourselves. We have been robbed of it when we were children. And we need to get it back. But it is stressful, because we are not used to it... We know avoidance got us through, right? What if I die if I assert myself? I don't know if this answer is safe... Well... it is. I promise. I support you wholeheartedly through this new pattern you want to use. Assertiveness. You deserve to get your power back.

What is very empowering about this board is that I can spin out and feel neurotic and doubt myself, and then you are so attuned to the dynamics that I realize this is experienced by other people in the same way, and there's a way out. I'm very grateful.

[livednlearned]

You have said that SD26 will be staying in a condo nearby. What does this mean in terms of the number of hours of potential contact you will have with her in a 24 hour period? Can SD26 just walk into your house at any time during a 24 hour period? Does she have the keys to your house? Some families allow close family members to come to the house at any time except bedtime hours, while others require advance notice. What are the rules for visits to your home with your SD26 and other children or are there no rules/boundaries?

No keys for SD26! 

We don't have rules. Right now H is so keyed up (about other things) that we have an agreement to not discuss our kids after 6pm. It's not a good time to even bring up rules. Without having an extra key I think we're ok. Plus, SS23 will be staying with her and that minimizes the neediness SD26 has, and the frantic--> needy behaviors she engages to avoid being alone. SS23 confides to me how he has to have boundaries with SD26, down to telling her to sleep in her own bed. I feel bad about creating a situation where he is the pressure valve for having her stay here with us but there it is. He is able to be much more blunt with her.

You make a good point about having rules.

H is in a state of higher than normal stress with all of our kids right now. This trip could cause things to come to a head, we'll see.

[kells76]

No keys for SD26! 

Glad that worked out! Probably much better for your nervous system. I know if the pwBPD in our life had access to our housekeys and I heard a key turning in the door, I'd probably have a big uncontrolled physical response.

We don't have rules. Right now H is so keyed up (about other things) that we have an agreement to not discuss our kids after 6pm. It's not a good time to even bring up rules. Without having an extra key I think we're ok. Plus, SS23 will be staying with her and that minimizes the neediness SD26 has, and the frantic--> needy behaviors she engages to avoid being alone. SS23 confides to me how he has to have boundaries with SD26, down to telling her to sleep in her own bed. I feel bad about creating a situation where he is the pressure valve for having her stay here with us but there it is. He is able to be much more blunt with her.

You make a good point about having rules.

It also sounds positive that you and H could recognize the need for the "not after 6" rule and discuss that.

It makes sense that you feel bad that SD26 has essentially been handed off to SS23 to deal with. Sure, he's an adult, yet he's also one of "the kids" in the family. Do you have any feelings/beliefs like "the parents should handle SD26's behaviors, not the kids", in the sense that you don't want to make the other kids responsible for SD26? I could kind of see that, and I get some of that with the kids' mom, where I have some beliefs that "H and I should field Mom's weirdness so the kids don't have to". Our situation is different in that it's the kids' parent with BPD, not their sibling. Just curious if there's some sense of obligation on your part ("We shouldn't put that on SS23").

H is in a state of higher than normal stress with all of our kids right now. This trip could cause things to come to a head, we'll see.

Between you and H, or between H and kid(s), or...?

...

 

[livednlearned]

Do you have any feelings/beliefs like "the parents should handle SD26's behaviors, not the kids", in the sense that you don't want to make the other kids responsible for SD26? I could kind of see that, and I get some of that with the kids' mom, where I have some beliefs that "H and I should field Mom's weirdness so the kids don't have to". Our situation is different in that it's the kids' parent with BPD, not their sibling. Just curious if there's some sense of obligation on your part ("We shouldn't put that on SS23").

I feel that way to a degree (meaning, don't make expect the kids to be responsible for SD26). They're adults so it's a bit different now and I'm less inclined to feel like it's fully our responsibility.

Back when SD26's chronic suicidal ideation was peaking, I waded into dynamics because I realized SD29 didn't know that H was handling acute SI. This was cathartic for SD29. It had come out through her BF at the time that she was being sworn to secrecy about SD26 suicidal ideation. This sent SD29 on a journey to understand ways in which she felt parentified, so I'm sensitive to that. With SD26 and SS23 it's more like ... this is a normal thing, to have both siblings come visit. It's just me feeling like I'm creating a situation for him I would find unbearable. 

Between you and H, or between H and kid(s), or...?

Me and H about our kids. Mine in particular (S21), but also his (SS23). We seem to be falling into traditional gender roles about the best way to support them. Unfortunately, the boys are oil and water so can't be roommates and live in an apartment together somewhere   

[Riv3rW0lf]

What a helpful way to phrase this. I seem to learn this and forget, learn and forget. I have gotten much better at being assertive. It's such a mess inside, and selfishly I want to understand and then immediately be able to do. It doesn't work like that.

I am the same way... I also feel like I forget those things when I get triggered and anxious. I do wonder if this is something we will ever "master". I like to think it comes in waves, and that no one ever truly masters... Except Buddha or Jesus I guess. But that this is just part of being human... We lose touch with our power. Some people are too assertive and stops to listen, and some people listen too much and lose themselves in all the noise. Life is about finding balance, so we are bound to oscillate...

 

This I find fascinating. Riv3rW0lf, if it's not comfortable to share, please don't feel compelled to answer this. However, I'm curious if you were you physically abused growing up?

I had an aha moment reading your response that maybe explains a decade living outdoors. I'm not a big person and ended up working outdoors leading people on wilderness trips. I love being outside but it's not entirely clear why I felt the need to work outdoors. Maybe it's for similar reasons, to feel there is something in the physicality of enduring demands. My partner at the time used to comment on how my clothes were always so big, and it wasn't until my 30s I realized I had this mental image that I was much bigger than I am. 

Yes I was physically abused as well, but all before I hit 9 years old. It didn't last as long as what you went through. It really pains me when you describe what your brother put you through, under the very eye of your parents. Truly, it makes me sick to my stomach.

Interesting about the seeing yourself bigger than you were. Was it some kind of dissociation?

On my end, I always thought of myself as diformed.  I also thought I was bigger, but also diformed... Like I could never truly grasped what I actually looked like... I realized recently that I have actually been feeling much better in my body since I started judo... It has really been helpful to me, like I am suddenly owning my body, which is new.

I have some fear about doing martial arts that I suspect is rooted in fear about what it will bring up. Body work makes me realize it doesn't ever fully go away but the idea of revisiting those memories in any vivid way is just ...

I understand. I don't think the physical abuse I suffered run as deep as yours. I dissociated so much that mine feels like a distant dream, if it makes sense? I was triggered once, but it wasn't overwhelming. I got through, and judo mostly help for desensitization... Like... I can hug people now. I hated when people touched me, it made me feel anxious and attacked. Now I simply don't react? I will even hug people warmly myself, and touch them, which I don't remember ever doing before.

[livednlearned]

I am the same way... I also feel like I forget those things when I get triggered and anxious. I do wonder if this is something we will ever "master".

Mastery would be amazing. I'm trying to look at bigger picture trends. Overall, I am so much more assertive, even if it seems insignificant. I am much better being assertive in ways other people probably don't even consider important. I've always had headstrong qualities, like being tenacious, persistent, resilient, determined. But not necessarily assertive when it matters, in the moment. Sort of like the thing where you start making small changes with strangers, then with acquaintances, then friends, then close friends, then family. I seem to be in a bit of a stuck pattern when it comes to family. I have to be grateful for the other changes. 

Interesting about the seeing yourself bigger than you were. Was it some kind of dissociation?

I'm sure there must be some disassociation. I see it more like I added 5 inches and an extra 30 pounds to my frame as a defense mechanism.

I have that thing where I can vividly recall details like wallpaper and carpet threads and certain smells but the rest of the scenes are unclear. A therapist told me the ability to hyperfocus on details is a remarkable survival skill that helps tune out the pain, almost like a form of meditation. I think her intention was to call out the mind's clever ways to survive abuse.

To be honest I don't fully understand disassociation. It could be that having such an intensely physical decade, similar to martial arts for you, has helped me be in my body and develop positive associations.   

I am suddenly owning my body, which is new.

I feel a deep sigh reading this. It's how I feel knowing there are paths back to more normal functioning. I always feel certain there are solutions and many paths to get there. My stepdaughter (29) started a martial arts class and talks about how important it's been for her (she has a BPD mom). SS23 does martial arts. H has also done a lot of martial arts (BPD/NPD parents). It's interesting, I'm intrigued.

I understand. I don't think the physical abuse I suffered run as deep as yours. I dissociated so much that mine feels like a distant dream, if it makes sense? I was triggered once, but it wasn't overwhelming. I got through, and judo mostly help for desensitization... Like... I can hug people now. I hated when people touched me, it made me feel anxious and attacked. Now I simply don't react? I will even hug people warmly myself, and touch them, which I don't remember ever doing before.

Distant dream makes sense, yes. Our lives before 9 are so distant, so to recall from that time period can be dreamlike. Although the somatic work I did centered on a memory at age 4. Sometimes these faint memories can be the most powerful, maybe because we were accessing more emotions as part of making sense of things when we're really young.

[Methuen]

No keys for SD26!

This sounds like progress! Just curious...has she had keys in the past?  Do you think she will push this boundary?  Does H have a plan for when she asks him for the keys? What if she throws a tantrum about not having keys? Can he hold this boundary if she pushes back? (This is Methuen thinking ahead for everything that can go wrong...I've had a lifetime of training in this habit of planning for every scenario For me, having a plan helps me stay calm.)

H is in a state of higher than normal stress with all of our kids right now. This trip could cause things to come to a head, we'll see.

It sounds like your H is in higher than normal stress for a number of things, but could it also be that like you, he is stressed about his D coming? Or is he genuinely looking forward to her visit?

In the event that you or H are uncomfortable with "setting rules", you could also call them "guidelines".  Same thing, but possibly less triggering?

SS23 confides to me how he has to have boundaries with SD26, down to telling her to sleep in her own bed. I feel bad about creating a situation where he is the pressure valve for having her stay here with us but there it is. He is able to be much more blunt with her.

Good for him.  They are siblings, and it's completely logical for them to stay together in the condo.  They have their own dynamic, and it sounds like he has developed some skills to manage her. Those skills will serve him well in life as he encounters other dysfunctional people in the work world or his community. Personally, I don't think there's anything you need to feel bad about with them rooming together in the condo. Pretty normal for siblings to room together as young adults.

But that this is just part of being human... We lose touch with our power. Some people are too assertive and stops to listen, and some people listen too much and lose themselves in all the noise. Life is about finding balance

This is a golden tidbit of wisdom.  

 It's interesting to hear your story about your Judo Riv3rW0lf.  Thanks for sharing.

[livednlearned]

Just curious...has she had keys in the past?

She had keys when she was in college, which made sense because we were home base when school was out.

Do you think she will push this boundary?  Does H have a plan for when she asks him for the keys? What if she throws a tantrum about not having keys? Can he hold this boundary if she pushes back? (This is Methuen thinking ahead for everything that can go wrong...I've had a lifetime of training in this habit of planning for every scenario For me, having a plan helps me stay calm.)

Methuen, this made me laugh. I'm the same way, I'm a planner, probably for similar reasons.

Things took a turn. SS23 had a seizure and was hospitalized. We were on a cancer roller coaster but an MRI returned different results. Serious but not as devastating. So now we are waiting for surgery and post-op instruction. It's not clear (though unlikely) that SS23 will be coming. H is with him now.

Obviously, the most important thing is his health.

I am also monitoring the situation with SD26. She may come on her own, in which case we will cancel the rental and she will stay with us.

It sounds like your H is in higher than normal stress for a number of things, but could it also be that like you, he is stressed about his D coming? Or is he genuinely looking forward to her visit?

This is a bit of a roundabout answer but is eye opening to experience the feelings that come up when a child experiences a serious health crisis (SS23). I realize we love because we love family, it's written into our humanity, like having hunger or thirst. Liking them is another matter.

SS23's BPD mom nearly managed to alienate him from H. That relationship has been repairing slowly. SS23 and I have a good relationship and I have been using that social capital to create a series of positive, trusting experiences with his dad (normal range parent) despite what BPD mom (pathogenic parent) has filled his head with. H and I are on the same page about this.

I think what H was looking forward to was not seeing his kids so much as giving them a calm, stress-free, normal sibling experience. There is so much stress with BPD mom. So it's not about whether H looks forward to seeing SD26 or SS23 so much as having a nearly normal experience with fun things planned. A reset of sorts.

In the event that you or H are uncomfortable with "setting rules", you could also call them "guidelines".  Same thing, but possibly less triggering?

When I think about this, it's more likely to come up in the moment. Like if H said to SD26, "Here's a key to our house" I would say, "Where would we be to make that necessary? Our whole week is about SS23 and SS26. Let's not have keys floating around."

H thinks (and is right) that conflict with SD26 is way down. But it's way down because she lives 3000 miles away. We don't talk about her much because of the strain. It seems easier to catch something as it's coming up and squelch it right there versus kicking open that door before there's any reason to kick.

I notice I didn't reach out to SD26 during this crisis. Yes to SS23, SS29, to SIL and BIL and even nieces/nephews.

It's these kinds of moments that remind me I am far from healed.