I feel like I’ve been here before… but this is far worse.

[thankful person]

As some of you may remember, the beginning of my story on here involved standing up to my wife over her “rule” that I was not to take photos of our babies or send them to my mother. When I told her I was going to start talking and sending photos her response was, “then our marriage is over”. She really meant it and I probably didn’t handle the fall out the best way as that was a few months before I joined bpd family. Eventually she did get over it and I have made much progress since in many areas of our relationship. It doesn’t feel like it today.

Things have always been hard between my wife and my mother. My mother usually gets along with everyone (except ironically my brother’s wife has also criticised her). I think Mum has made lots of effort with my wife, and certainly she has helped us out financially over the years and bought generous gifts.

My wife has now announced that she doesn’t want my mother to visit (or for the children to see her) if my mother isn’t going to make more effort with her. And it feels a lot like the photo situation but far more serious. I can’t just take the children or invite my mother round without my wife’s agreement. I shared this on the in-law board and it was suggested to get my mother on board with overly making an effort with my wife to make her feel welcome and special and all the rest. I had a long chat with Mum today, basically alluding to the fact that our marriage is a shambles and telling her this advice from the bpd family member, along with basic explanations about validation and not jade-ing etc. I feel stronger now that my Mum knows more of the truth. But I feel like I don’t have any rights over the children spending time with my mother, it just can’t work unless my wife is on board, or if we were to actually become separated/divorced then I could go through legal channels for access rights. I don’t want it to come to that. It’s not a possibility that my wife might go out while Mum visits me and the children. She would never do that, or allow me to “take” them. It’s very worrying because Mum told me that she has been making a great effort with my wife (they communicate via text as my wife would never answer a phone call from my Mum), and it always gets thrown back in her face. Also my wife has said cruel things to her about how my Mum was a bad mother. Every time Mum makes an effort she feels she’s getting attacked. I know this feeling all too well as it’s what I’ve been going through in my marriage. So where I thought maybe Mum could handle things better, I’m now not at all sure she can. It seems she has been painted black.

My wife’s Dad was very angry when I told him about the situation with the photos and how my wife behaved. He used to go on about how my wife should take the baby to see my Mum. My wife’s mother was here over the weekend for her birthday. She knows of this situation where my mother isn’t welcome. She doesn’t exactly support her daughter, she just literally never gives an opinion on anything. So I doubt she’s told her husband. I kind of want him to know but have chosen not to involve him so far, also wouldn’t want my wife to know the info came from me. I did encourage my Mum to tell him, but just in a roundabout manner in conversation. I’m not sure how much influence he has, but my wife does respect him.

I just can’t believe it’s come to this and I don’t know what to do next. We go on holiday at the beginning of July so if I’m taking any drastic action I will certainly wait until after that.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[babyducks]

hello thankful person

I shared this on the in-law board and it was suggested to get my mother on board with overly making an effort with my wife to make her feel welcome and special and all the rest.

I read the thread on the in-law board.   some good stuff there.

I had a long chat with Mum today, basically alluding to the fact that our marriage is a shambles and telling her this advice from the bpd family member, along with basic explanations about validation and not jade-ing etc.

could you say more about how your Mum responded during your chat?   was she surprised?    angry?   sad?   you said in the other thread that your Mum gets nervous when she tries to reply to your wife.   that makes sense of course.  did you get any sense that your Mum was relieved that you were talking about this with her?   

But I feel like I don’t have any rights over the children spending time with my mother, it just can’t work unless my wife is on board,

have you told your wife this in any fashion?   it might be helpful if you could describe how this conversation goes between you and your wife.    as close to exact as you feel comfortable sharing.  it would provide a better understanding of the subtleties going on under the surface.

it seems like, from what you describe, you have a struggle with asserting your rights.   it's one of your patterns and your wife uses this to her advantage.  most of us caretakers are the same.    it was a new concept to me that no one had to grant me rights, that inherently I had them.   I had the right to say No to things that were not in my best interests.   I am curious about what rights do you think you have to/over/with the children now?


'ducks

[thankful person]

Hi ducks,

Thank you for your reply.

My Mum didn’t react much tbh. Not a lot surprises her and we’ve had a few “difficult people” in our family. Mum can come across unemotional generally and it’s hard to get a reaction out of her. I did find that hard when I was a teenager and had my own bpd symptoms going on. Mum didn’t validate my feelings and she didn’t get it. She doesn’t have much sympathy or understanding of mental illness. So I can kind of see why my wife feels how she does. Like one time my wife was raising money for a mental illness charity. Mum gave her a donation but said nothing about my wife being a mental health recovery warrior and that upset her. Still, my Mum is a friendly and caring person who always welcomes anyone into our family and into her home. She is also very generous with money. She has done nothing to deserve this treatment.

So this is how the latest conversation went down (wife’s mother was with us but as usual said nothing):
Me (to wife, but as a way of telling her Mum): You’ve said you don’t want my Mum to visit again…
Wife (to her Mum): No I don’t want her here. Last time she made me feel uncomfortable in my own home. She ignores me and everything is about thankful person and the kids. She’s always been like this and ignored me. Even thankful person made me feel left out…
Me: but Mum has a right to see her grandchildren… (inwardly wanting to give mil a big SHAKE to get her to say SOMETHING)
Wife: NOT if she doesn’t make any effort with ME (meaning she apparently still has that opportunity through WhatsApp messages).
Mil: …
Me: I don’t want my Mum to die with me just having sat back and not stood up for her right to see her grandchildren (she is 78, very healthy but of course our time is limited)
Wife: well she’d better start making an effort…
Mil: …

(Mil knows that my mother is friendly and welcoming and has given us lots of money.)

Mum gave me some specific examples where she has tried to make an effort. She was asking wife about the air fryer she bought for her birthday. Wife snapped that she didn’t know what she’s going to make, please don’t ask about it I’ll tell you when I want to. Mum asked about wife’s personal training. Wife snapped that she’s had to quit due to poor health, I didn’t tell you about that because I didn’t want to talk about it. (I got in trouble because I wasn’t even supposed to have mentioned the personal training. I’m not “allowed” to talk about my wife). Mum said she thought the pt might help with wife’s strength and mental well being. Wife snapped that she’s physically unwell not mentally. Mum said, maybe the holiday will make you feel better. Wife snapped, I’m not stressed and depressed I have a physical problem the holiday won’t help it. Mum said, holidays often make people feel better. Wife said, well it won’t. I’m on medication. Mum asked what medication. Wife says it’s none of your business and I find that question invasive and insulting. Today I gave Mum her online piano lesson and I showed her my new tattoo. After the lesson she was saying hi to the kids on video call and she asked if she could see wife’s new tattoo. Wife said no but I thought well played Mum that was a good way to show an interest and make an effort.

So where I thought maybe Mum could make more effort… now I’m not at all sure about this. It feels like the way I have been painted black in the past (Not quite so bad atm but it comes and goes). The “you make no effort” is an accusation which is constantly levelled at me too.

This situation is a deal breaker for me. It was the situation with the photos rule that first prompted me to stand up to my wife and that was before I knew anything about bpd family. I was willing to lose my marriage over that and here I am again. It is much harder for me to just “go against my wife’s wishes” on this one. The children are young and the little one still breast feeds. My wife is always home and rarely goes out without me. I never take the children anywhere on my own except nursery or the shops. I’m unsure how to assert my rights and boundaries here. I’d like to know legally whether I have any rights to take my children to see my mother, or whether I’m right that I’d have to be divorced or separated to initiate this.

I’m not doing anything about it until after we get back off holiday on 9th July. I don’t want to cause any drama, this holiday is planned to be fun for the kids and hopefully good for mine and my wife’s relationship too. However I want to do what I can now to push this in the right direction (if possible) and plan for the way I might handle it after our holiday (if it’s necessary as in if my wife doesn’t change her mind).

[babyducks]

thankful person

Mum can come across unemotional generally and it’s hard to get a reaction out of her.

how about we look at a couple of things and see if it is possible to reframe this a little bit.  your Mum is quieter, self contained, and comes from a generation where women were expected to take a secondary role.   she's not doing anything wrong particularly.  she isn't being mean to your wife.   she isn't harmful to your family.   she is being who she is.   she's got her hands full with your Dad and has a view of mental illness based on older perspectives.  that all sounds pretty reasonable to me.   it is quite possible that your Mum has gone as far as she is able in working with this new situation.  
 

Wife (to her Mum): No I don’t want her here. Last time she made me feel uncomfortable in my own home. She ignores me and everything is about thankful person and the kids. She’s always been like this and ignored me. Even thankful person made me feel left out…
Me: but Mum has a right to see her grandchildren… (inwardly wanting to give mil a big SHAKE to get her to say SOMETHING)

it is very very hard to communicate with person with BPD.    its very very hard to communicate and have your thoughts, opinions, ideas, feelings recognized.   I honestly believe that it requires A++++ communication skills.    used extensively.

so there is nuance to this, subtlety that is hard to convey in a written form.    where is the line between validation and appeasement?   when can a Karpman triangle be helpful, and when can it hinder?  when it is JADE and when is it communicating perspective.    obviously that is different for every person and each situation.

sometimes a triangle can actually be helpful in that sharing with a third party can reduce the stress between the two most emotionally involved people.    some times a triangle can be unproductive because it falls into the typical patterns of rescuer/victim/persecutor.    what do you see going on with your attempt to involve your MIL?

I noticed two things in the snippet above.  when your Mum comes to visit she is focused on you and the kids.    Yep.   I imagine she would be.    that's normal.   you are her child and those are her grand kids and from what you have said I am guessing she wouldn't have chosen to have any type of relationship with your wife if you hadn't.       trying to change ~normal~ to make your wife more comfortable appears unlikely to be effective.     compare it to when you didn't take showers as you normally would.     you changed ~normal~ and it really did not have a positive impact on your wife.

the second thing I noticed, "but Mum has a right to see her grand kids".     it seems as if you are accepting the premise that your wife can block your Mum from contact.  you are accepting the argument on the terms your wife is dictating.    
how would the conversation have gone if you had said 'I really want my Mum to come, we will have to find a way to work this out.'
how would the conversation have gone if you said 'of course she is focused on me and the kids, it's really good that the kids are important to her.'
how would the conversation have changed if you said 'while I understand what you are saying, I need my Mum to be involved in my life'.

by going to 'she has a right' you are engaging in your wife's version of reality.    which is not a good match for your own.     I would suggest some carefully crafted SET statements could be introduced here.   do you want to gently challenge your wife's perspective or reinforce her thinking?

Me: I don’t want my Mum to die with me just having sat back and not stood up for her right to see her grandchildren (she is 78, very healthy but of course our time is limited)
Wife: well she’d better start making an effort…

and so by engaging using the terms defined by your wife,  the conversation becomes all about her,  she gets to state what she wants,  you don't get to state what you want, and she ~wins~ again because she reinforces her own opinion.

I am going to use an analogy here, its an awkward one but play with it a little.    if you can't win the battle on the ground its being fought on, move to better ground.

The “you make no effort” is an accusation which is constantly levelled at me too.

the old saying is don't validate (even inadvertently) the invalid.   You are making an effort.    Your Mum is making an effort.   Your wife is not making an effort.   Don't validate the invalid.    So, this is where the nuance comes in, what is a reasonable accommodation to make for someone with mental health issues and what is enabling bad behavior by working around it?    It's not so clear.    these are fuzzy lines to be drawn in the sand.   You've asked your Mum for a reasonable accommodation.   How would you go about asking your wife to meet half way, and also make an accommodation?    is it fair to put the ask entirely on one person ?

I’m unsure how to assert my rights and boundaries here. I’d like to know legally whether I have any rights to take my children to see my mother, or whether I’m right that I’d have to be divorced or separated to initiate this.

how could you go about finding out more about your legal rights?   what would make you more comfortable asserting that you could take the children places by yourself.   could you start small and take the children out some place so that it become ordinary for you to have alone time with them?

I’m not doing anything about it until after we get back off holiday on 9th July.

good idea.    there is a lot to work through.   hopefully you are getting new seeds planted about possible approaches.

'ducks

[thankful person]

Thank you ducks, that is a lot to think about. I am understanding that there are better ways to approach this and I will be thinking about it lots before we go away and during our break away. I’m not sure whether to attempt to talk about it at all before then, what do you think?

Your examples of what I could have said are good and I certainly will use them, especially, “I really want my Mum to come, we will have to find a way to work this out”. Then if she says no then I foresee a very difficult time ahead including hope to handle the time my mother is in town. My wife has rarely gone out on her own since having the babies because she is very tied to the breast feeding. She has struggled not knowing anyone here (Not that she has ever had very good friends…) I’m working much of the time though have had to cancel quite a bit to support my wife through poor health issues (and look after the children). When I’m not working my wife wants to go out all the time and be busy as a family. So when I say Mum is coming in the summer she will say, “that’s our family time and very inconvenient, you never think about my feelings and plans blah blah blah”. I’m thinking of how to bring up the meeting half way, when in my wife’s eyes it is her making all the effort…

I was hoping my mil could help talk some sense into my wife but how ridiculous she never has before. But when people say things it does sometimes make her think and then she can change her mind. That’s the effect I was hoping her Dad would have if he knew. I told my Mum to tell him, not like telling tales just mentioning in passing that she’s not planning to come atm because of my wife’s saying she’s not welcome.

In the UK we have CAB citizens advice bureau, and I guess they may be able to advise me on my legal rights though it involves a visit/phone call/email and I have little privacy where these things are concerned. It is because of having the little ones, my wife used to go out on her own etc a lot more and she is keen to get a job (though she wants the money rather than the work…) She also was doing the personal training but she’s just not well enough to continue. It irritates me when things are god for her mental health and it doesn’t work out for whatever reason. There is a pattern of self sabotage but then my wife has been very sick since baby was born. I’m taking more time off work and I don’t want to, but that’s a story for another day.

[babyducks]

I certainly will use them, especially, “I really want my Mum to come, we will have to find a way to work this out”. Then if she says no then I foresee a very difficult time ahead

when you have had a productive/successful conversation with your wife how did it go?   what can you identify that made it productive?   were there tools or techniques that made the conversation better for both of you?  you are here on the bettering board which means you cultivating / growing your own interpersonal skills is encouraged.    I would suggest you think about how you can raise your game in how you interact with your wife before you take on this challenge.

 My wife has rarely gone out on her own since having the babies because she is very tied to the breast feeding.

hmmmm.    really?   is it possible the isolation is about more than breastfeeding?  and this keeping people away is an effect of something else?   I feel I need to point out that many mothers manage breastfeeding and going out, and developing friendships and having visitors.  

 

 So when I say Mum is coming in the summer she will say, “that’s our family time and very inconvenient, you never think about my feelings and plans blah blah blah”.

Yep.   she probably will say this.   and I am equally sure you can predict 90% of everything else she will say.    which will give you the opportunity to think through exactly how you want to respond before you have the conversation.   script it out.   work through it here.     ask for suggestions.   if you wife says 'you never think about my feelings' how can you respond that's not JADE but is a response that might, MIGHT move the conversation to a better place.    like I said earlier, it is very very hard to have a productive conversation with a pwBPD.  LnL said it in your other thread.   resource hoarding.    pwBPD don't like to give ground or compromise or share attention because they desperately hoard resources.    think about how this fits into your life.   what resources does your wife hoard?  the children?   alone time with the children?   control over the children?   attention?   the undivided attention of the children? your attention and caretaking?   think about when she is willing to share resources.    what is she comfortable sharing as a resource?  where and when?

 

That’s the effect I was hoping her Dad would have if he knew.

if her Dad is a positive in her life what can you do to encourage more contact?   without making someone else responsible for taking care of what you want?  can you suggest coffee with Dad once a month or whatever fits your situation?

 

In the UK we have CAB citizens advice bureau, and I guess they may be able to advise me on my legal rights though it involves a visit/phone call/email and I have little privacy where these things are concerned.

I would encourage you to find a way to contact the CAB.    even if you don't use the information or its not as productive as you hope, its a step you can take for you.    in a way its practice in taking care of you.

take our time thinking about this.   pull it apart.    find what works for you.   do the work of standing up for yourself.  you deserve it.

'ducks

[thankful person]

Thank you ducks. The last time we had a similar successful negotiation you might remember was the visit to see my parents around Christmas time 2021. At the time my wife had softened towards me as you remember she responded so well initially to everything I learnt on here. I just remember, after so much resistance, gently asking her, “can we talk about going to visit my parents sometime?” It seemed I had gone on about it enough and on that occasion she said, “I’ve been thinking about when we could do that…” She then went on to arrange it. She also invited my mother to visit (staying in hotel) last year. My wife likes to be in control so that’s why I allowed her to arrange these things. At the time I discussed the family visit 2021 she was driving us to a pumpkin farm, could be the wrong time of year but I might try discussing it when she’s driving somewhere fun.

My wife’s parents also live several hours away so we don’t see them that often. I like her Dad, but having disowned his two other daughters and his own mother, I guess as a role model he is questionable. However he has always stood up for my Mum and her right to see the children which I guess is ironic as he cut his own mother out of his kids’ lives and her and his other two daughters are now described as “dead to me”. It’s a wonder really that he still has a relationship with my wife, but I guess they have something in common.

[babyducks]

as you remember she responded so well initially to everything I learnt on here.

I do remember.   

one of the things to wrestle with on the bettering board is, how much bettering is possible?    what is better?    what is workable?   what isn't tenable?

someone else was talking about values.  values can be thought of as principles and/or standards.    what are the principles that are part of you.   what are the principles that you hold so dear you can't budge from them?    what are the standards that you firmly cling to.    where are your standards and principles being pushed backwards?

your short term goal here may be to get your Mum a visit.   I would recommend that you also think about the long term.   what is your family going to be like in 1 year, 3 years, 5 years?  try and think strategically.

  I like her Dad, but having disowned his two other daughters and his own mother, I guess as a role model he is questionable.

not a surprise that there is dysfunction in your wife's family of origin.  fits with what you have shared.   still cultivating allies where you can find them might help take the pressure off the martial relationship.

my two cents
'ducks

[Notwendy]

one of the things to wrestle with on the bettering board is, how much bettering is possible?    what is better?    what is workable?   what isn't tenable?

What are the principles that you hold so dear you can't budge from them?   

Have you been to a public pool where they have periodic "time outs" where everyone gets out of the pool? I think these are to give children a rest, change out the lifeguards, clean up the pool if needed. The children are not allowed back in the pool until the time out is over.

Look at some of the children- if the boundary is "do not get in the pool" these kids get as close as possible to that. They get to the edge of the pool, with their toes hanging out over the water but not touching it. The lifeguard glares at them. The kids grin at the lifeguard "see, I'm not in the pool" but they are testing the boundary to see how far they can go. The consequence of going in the pool is that they can't swim for the rest of the day. They have some investment in this as they want to swim and they won't go in the pool. 

In a similar way to these kids, my BPD mother sees boundaries as a challenge and attempts to push them as far as possible, and also see if you will compromise. If you do, then she pushes farther. But somehow she can sense the ones that are deal breakers. She might push against them as close as she can but may not cross them. (some boundaries she does cross, depending on the consequences) She's the kid with the toes that are just above the pool water testing you to see what you will do.

To have a deal breaker boundary- it has to be the boundary you hold firm to no matter what. This means you have to also be able to withstand her reaction and not give in. If you do, that becomes an empty threat, not a boundary. This may involve a cost- it may even end the relationship if the partner chooses that. So a boundary you choose has to be a deal breaker you can hold to. We can't control if someone violates our boundaries, only our response to it.

Your spouse is also dependent on you in many ways and has to be invested in the relationship too. If your boundary is " I want my mother to have a relationship with my kids" - your wife then has the choice to accept this, or not. You don't have to say it. In fact, it's better to not say it and just take action. "I would like my mother to visit. She will be in town on these dates" and you just do it. You do not ask for permission, your wife won't agree. Now, she will probably react, threaten, do whatever- be the kid who has their toes right up to the water. But will she cross this and get into the pool?

You don't know until you test it. Just like you did with the photos of your kids. And if she does actually leave, then you know her investment in the relationship was only if you complied with her wishes. I hope you believe you are worth more than that, and I think with her, you probably are. It's a risk though, if you are willing to take it.

[thankful person]

Ducks and not Wendy,

Thank you. I know it’s dangerous to hope but sometimes hope is all we have, right? So let me share my hope: just like the child that is about to dip his toe back in the water, when the lifeguard walks his way, he quickly crosses his legs and behaves himself… No matter how unlikely, I hope that my wife will change her mind and miraculously decide that my mother has made just enough effort to be welcome here for a short visit. I hope that she knows my intention is that Mum WILL be seeing the children this summer and that is the deadline I have in mind. I am getting a new phone and today I ordered a phone case which I know my wife won’t like, and I didn’t even show her or discuss it with her. It sounds silly, (I will always notice when I do such things), but every little thing I do that reminds her that I am (trying to be) my own person now is hopefully helping her to know that I won’t back down.

[Notwendy]

Yes, we can hope. In my own situation, BPD mother does not take any accountability for her action, she refuses counseling and believes any issues are the other person's fault. She might act like the kid who straightens up when the lifeguard is near but once the lifeguard walks away, she's back at hanging her feet over the pool water. If she falls in the pool, she blames the pool, or the edge, or the lifeguard.

I hope for you that your wife can do better. As 'Ducks mentioned, the bettering board is helpful- but at some point, we can assess just how much we can do on our part. BPD is on a spectrum. In my mother's situation, it's her distorted thinking and immature emotions - that we can't change for her. It's different from a romantic relationship but still, it's a significant one. Since I can't change her, I have to decide the limits of what I will tolerate in a relationship with her.

There's another benefit to the "bettering board". Even if you were to decide to not stay in the relationship, you will always have some kind of relationship with your wife as you two would be your children's parents. The children have a relationship with her. Learning the tools on this board can help reduce the drama no matter what the outcome. They can't change the thinking in BPD. So yes, it's worth having hope, it's worth trying, and then reassessing the situation for yourself.

[babyducks]

I know it’s dangerous to hope but sometimes hope is all we have, right?

I can hope to win the lottery.   to win a big jackpot.   it's a relief to hope that way.   its entertainment.    it's a well-deserved bout of escapism.   

should hope be balanced with action and reality?   Yes probably.

I hope that my wife will change her mind and miraculously decide that my mother has made just enough effort to be welcome here for a short visit.

I hope your Mum comes to visit because you and your wife find a way to work together to make that part of your routine.