Is no news good news?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I’m starting a new thread to get feedback on the more recent developments in my divorce case.

As a quick catch-up. We’re several months past filing, and until recently we have been negotiating a settlement through our attorneys. About a week ago, BPDw sent me an email claiming that she was moving forward with a DV report and possibly a restraining order in response to my supposed unwillingness to compromise on custody and financial matters (i.e. I did not give her everything she wanted). My attorney was not super concerned about this at the time and said they would keep an eye out for any actual follow-through.

After a week, I haven’t heard anything additional from my attorney about the matter, and BPDw has been pretty quiet the last few days as well.

Based on y’all’s experiences, is this probably a case of “no news is good news”?

[grootyoda]

I’m starting a new thread to get feedback on the more recent developments in my divorce case.

As a quick catch-up. We’re several months past filing, and until recently we have been negotiating a settlement through our attorneys. About a week ago, BPDw sent me an email claiming that she was moving forward with a DV report and possibly a restraining order in response to my supposed unwillingness to compromise on custody and financial matters (i.e. I did not give her everything she wanted). My attorney was not super concerned about this at the time and said they would keep an eye out for any actual follow-through.

After a week, I haven’t heard anything additional from my attorney about the matter, and BPDw has been pretty quiet the last few days as well.

Based on y’all’s experiences, is this probably a case of “no news is good news”?

[kells76]

That's plausible. We've had experiences with the kids' mom saying all kinds of things in a variety of situations that she "definitely means" or "is absolutely going to do" or whatever. It probably sounds good and right to her emotionally in the moment, but as BPD seems to have an effect on executive functioning, she rarely followed through. The examples are:

-she said in an initial legal filing that DH cheated on his taxes. That never came up again.
-she told our younger SD that she would definitely do X activity with her. Never happened
-she told the kids she didn't think our international trip with them was a good idea. She never emailed/called/texted us with any concerns.
 etc

For us, the bigger issue was how what she said impacted the kids. Your D is young enough and out of the loop with Mom enough that that may be less of a concern for you right now.

I'd follow your L's lead and believe it if I ever see it. Because she only emailed you, right? This email wasn't coming from her L to your L?

Keep your eye on the ball (your D's wellbeing and time with you), delegate concern about the wacky stuff she says to your L, and don't let all the stuff she says in the moment derail you from the bigger picture of getting the best possible parenting setup for you and your D.

...

All that being said, sometimes dealing with BPD behaviors takes a "both-and" versus an "either-or" approach. So, at the same time that I might recommend "don't let it get to you, don't give it a ton of weight", I might also say -- this gives you a glimpse of what she may try moving forward. She might be "showing her cards" to you even though that's a poor legal move that doesn't make sense. Maybe give your L a heads up that "as weird as it sounds, this is probably what she'll focus on, and yes, it makes no sense that she's telling me her strategy".

Is your L aware that BPD dynamics are at play?

[grootyoda]

Yes and Yes. She only sent it to me, no attorneys copied or mentioned. My attorney knows BPD is a factor - it’s not their area of expertise, but they’re familiar with the kinds of issues it can introduce to the process. I’m in the process of reading Splitting and recommended it to my lawyer as well, but they’ve been pretty on the money with their approach to the case so far I feel. A whole lot of “let’s formally set up the boundaries, document when they’re being disregarded, document how we are being good actors even when they aren’t, and keep our cool about it”.

[livednlearned]

grootyoda, I wasn't sure if I was remembering correctly about your wife's substance abuse issues so I looked back at earlier posts:

I’m sorry to hear about the role benzos are playing in your relationship as well. My pwBPD has been on them consistently for about 10 years, during much of which she was also a severe alcoholic. She also is a fairly heavy cannabis user, and at varying times has been dishonest about whether and how much she was using of various medications and substances.

The blackout and memory loss things are very very real, and if I had known just how damaging long term benzo use could be I would have insisted she find another, less addictive,  medication a long time ago. As it is, it’s really hard to tell how much of her behavior is the BPD and how much is substance related, but either way it’s hard to be a partner to someone who doesn’t know or seem to remember a lot of what they do.

This alone is going to make it hard for her to connect legal dots that add up to something she can sustain over a period of time.

My ex mixed all kinds of prescription drugs and alcohol too.

It is possible your wife is in a BPD meltdown that she's medicating with benzos and who knows what else. She didn't get what she wanted from you when she played her last card. That probably set her back and she handled it the way she usually handles stress in the way she usually does, with drugs. Only she knows, and even then, she may not remember.

Untreated BPD is a very erratic, chaotic, turbulent disorder. Add drugs and alcohol and it's hard to predict what they can sustain.

n/BPDx seemed to dial back his drinking while we were in the early stages of divorce. I think he turned to prescription meds. Eventually, he drank again to excess and combined with medications had a psychotic break.

Your wife's trajectory is more likely to follow that path than figuring out how to self-organize for a sustained period of time. She would have to give up all drugs and alcohol and start treatment, and try to manage regular stressors much less fighting for custody of her child.

There are certainly BPD mothers who engage in legal abuse and your wife is making her best effort to follow that playbook. But so far it isn't passing the sniff test.

I suspect your ongoing challenge will be ensuring that your wife is capable of caring for D2. My ex fought for more custody in court at the same time he was gifting me his custodial time. It was an odd form of madness to spend an afternoon in court listening to him demand more time and then a day later receiving an email saying he couldn't take our son that weekend. No request to exchange that time, just giving it away.

[grootyoda]

I suspect your ongoing challenge will be ensuring that your wife is capable of caring for D2. My ex fought for more custody in court at the same time he was gifting me his custodial time. It was an odd form of madness to spend an afternoon in court listening to him demand more time and then a day later receiving an email saying he couldn't take our son that weekend. No request to exchange that time, just giving it away.

Sorry you had to go through that push and pull cycle. I feel like something similar might happen here, that she’ll want the time on paper, then in practice ask me to take over frequently. I’ve even had a number of people tell me that I should just agree to 50/50 then let her show that she isn’t serious about the time she’s asking for. That, however, sounds like a big gamble on D2’s well-being, because what if she gets overwhelmed, dysregulates and either rages or acts out instead of sending D2 back to me. It doesn’t quite sit right with me.

[ForeverDad]

I was surprised when I was new to domestic court and the judge stopped me when I was testifying about prior incidents.  He didn't want to hear vague "he always..." or "she always..." hearsay nor did he care to hear anything older than events in the 6 months prior to us filing in court.

So even if she does make a DV report, it can't be vague (hearsay) or from long before (legally stale).

My ex made so many reports that were "closed" without action that one time I asked for a letter regarding the outcome.  It stated the usual weak "unsubstantiated" rather than the actual "unfounded".  That was the best I could get.

[grootyoda]

Thanks, I’m hopeful that’s the case here. We did get something from the other attorney. There was no mention of any of the DV stuff. Not surprisingly, though, they didn’t move much from where they have been, and it sounds like going to court is more and more likely.

[livednlearned]

it sounds like going to court is more and more likely.

 

How are you feeling about that?

[grootyoda]

How are you feeling about that?

Honestly? Not great because the urge is to think of every tiny thing I’ve ever done “wrong” that could possibly be used against me, even if it’s ridiculously unrealistic. I’m also letting myself process before I talk to anyone but my attorney, even if it feels deeply uncomfortable.

Part of me really just wants to settle on the 50/50 custody thing because at least I’d “know” what’s going to happen, but if that turned out to be a mistake I’m not sure how I’d forgive myself later. Even if I did, experience says she won’t let up until she gets everything she wants, so I doubt it would actually help move things across the finish line. I feel pretty deeply conflicted there.

I’m also feeling really disappointed and a little angry because, in the back of my mind, I really thought better angels would win out during negotiations. Now I just think my BPDw asked for things I can’t and shouldn’t give her because she figured I’d get scared and cave. It’s every failed compromise attempt we ever had rolled up into one, and I’m pretty upset about it.

That’s a little all over the place I’m sure, but I hope it makes some kind of sense.

[ForeverDad]

Not surprisingly, though, they didn’t move much from where they have been, and it sounds like going to court is more and more likely.

This is not unusual: 

• Mediation attempts fail...
• Ex plods along in court...
• Court takes its time checking all the procedural boxes while hoping the litigants turn out to be reasonably normal, wise up and figure out what they can live with...
• If necessary, an in-depth Custody Evaluation recommends an outcome to the court...
• When trial looms, then finally they work out a settlement.

Part of me really just wants to settle on the 50/50 custody thing because at least I’d “know” what’s going to happen, but if that turned out to be a mistake I’m not sure how I’d forgive myself later. Even if I did, experience says she won’t let up until she gets everything she wants, so I doubt it would actually help move things across the finish line. I feel pretty deeply conflicted there.

Ah, but there's a difference now.  Before she was dealing with you and she doesn't consider you have any authority in the family.  Now, oh boy, court is The Authority. 

You be the person with proper Boundaries and always be the one with practical solutions.  Let her be the obstructionist and driver of the conflict.

Court may not appear to side with you, it tries to be above it all, but you ought to get fair treatment, well, not too unfair.

[kells76]

If I'm reading your history correctly, your W has been using benzos/weed/Rx meds at minimum since you got here (spring last year)?

And the temporary custody agreement (where she is supervised), which she signed off on, was March of this year?

At any point in that whole time, either since last spring or since this March, has she ever gotten any documented, sustained, meaningful, impactful help for her substance abuse? I'm thinking No?

If that's all accurate, let's get you out of the FOG of thinking that you have to start with suggesting 50/50 in court.

She has untreated substance abuse!

One way to think about it is: suggesting that 50/50 is workable doesn't actually show the court that you are a good, thoughtful, fair kind of guy. It might inadvertently show the court that you think that untreated (or minimally treated, or spottily addressed) substance abuse isn't a big deal for parenting -- which calls into question your judgment as a parent.

Consider talking with your L about a strong "walking into trial" position from which you could "grudgingly" negotiate down if absolutely necessary (with requirements for SA treatment/testing, parenting classes, etc), versus showing up hoping that proposing 50/50 to manage your anxiety will show the court that you're a fair kind of guy.

You're in a unique position here on the boards; you've been through a lot and despite the stuff your ex is trying to throw at you, you're in a strong position (having a temporary custody agreement that gives Mom supervised visitation is very, very rare here). As ForeverDad says, don't gift that away! Focus on what's best for your daughter even if it's anxiety-inducing for you. You've been through tough times before (the surgery), you can do it!   

[livednlearned]

Part of me really just wants to settle on the 50/50 custody thing because at least I’d “know” what’s going to happen, but if that turned out to be a mistake I’m not sure how I’d forgive myself later. Even if I did, experience says she won’t let up until she gets everything she wants, so I doubt it would actually help move things across the finish line. I feel pretty deeply conflicted there.

It's ok to feel conflicted -- it's natural.

Try to observe your feelings and not act on them.

Your L needs room to negotiate and if you say 50/50 when there is an untreated substance abuse issue, the judge might think you're negligent.

Giving in to irrational people only emboldens them. We teach them if they kick and punch and scream and yell they get their way.

The next time they want something the same thing happens but worse because now they know that kicking and punching and screaming and yelling works.

Stick with the plan and see what happens. Try to not negotiate with yourself.

 

[grootyoda]

Thanks guys, the encouragement really helps.

I do want to clarify something about the untreated substance abuse thing (and play devils advocate to myself a bit). She does have a therapist and a psychiatrist, although historically they have not been in communication with one another (e.g. no medical record sharing between the two). Therapist is aware of the history of alcoholism and substance use, but W has a tendency to minimize it and focus on what they say about other people. She has claimed to me that her psychiatrist is aware, but I have a hard time buying that when she has prescribed multiple medications with a high risk of addiction. All that is to say that the “untreated” part is something they’ll likely argue against, though how successfully I’m not sure. Here’s what I know - the behavior is the behavior, and at a minimum I’m aware of a number of outright lies she’s told her own L.

In terms of sticking to the plan and having faith. As hard as it is, I’m resolving myself to do just that. I had a good conversation with my L today about where things stand, then I spent some time organizing all the visitation notes into one spreadsheet so I could pull out recurring themes. That made me feel a little more settled about everything.

[grootyoda]

If I'm reading your history correctly, your W has been using benzos/weed/Rx meds at minimum since you got here (spring last year)?

She’s been on the benzos for around a decade. Heavy pot smoker until a few years ago, but was still using delta 8/9 products at least weekly when we separated. Also on a number of other psychiatric medications. I ran the list by my own psychiatrist about a month before we separated and he expressed serious concerns about it - enough that he suggested I consider talking to an attorney. And now here we are.

[grootyoda]

Update - had my L write back to let them know we agree about being at an impasse. Also didn’t back down on the supervised visit thing. We offered some alternative solutions to just going to unsupervised, such as hiring a neutral third party when previously named supervisors are unavailable, or moving ahead with random drug screening as a condition for unsupervised visits. Still no word on the actions she threatened me with a few weeks ago.

I’m  glad I haven’t caved in, but at the same time the tension is definitely weighing on me. I know giving BPDw what she wants would be a temporary relief with permanent negative consequences, but it’s taking all the strength I have to hold onto that truth. I have a great support system, but I still can’t help feeling really isolated in this, like I’m trapped in this crazy situation until I either capitulate or BPDw decides to let go and turn her attention elsewhere.

For those who’ve gone through all this, was there a moment or a series of moments that helped you get to a place where you felt more at ease with things? Practically speaking I’m doing “the right things”, but it’s basically through sheer force of will right now.

[livednlearned]

For those who’ve gone through all this, was there a moment or a series of moments that helped you get to a place where you felt more at ease with things? Practically speaking I’m doing “the right things”, but it’s basically through sheer force of will right now.

Sheer force of will sounds about right, unfortunately.

I learned in a mindfulness class (to help with the stress) that pain x resistance = suffering.

My case was different than what many here experienced because my ex was himself an attorney and represented himself. He became a vexatious litigant and the judge issued a gatekeeping order (that for reasons I still don't understand didn't really do anything).

At some point I accepted that this was my life and treated it like a side job.

It didn't make it any less painful but my stress levels sort of evened out.

Many of us here are not champions of having good boundaries and that's probably also a factor. It's like a muscle. If you don't use it, then use it a lot, you're going to feel it.

It's sounds callous to say this, but this is a bit like negotiating a contract. The worst thing you can do is to negotiate with yourself. Wait to see what comes back. That's actually something my ex taught me even before we divorced 

[grootyoda]

So here’s where we stand now. She wasn’t willing to agree to the terms we offered - they did provide a test that was not what we asked for and asked that they get unsupervised visits anyway. I worked with my L to respond about what screening standards we’d accept - her L has indicated they aren’t quite willing to conform to the standards we're asking them to. That’s where we are currently parked for now - unfortunately I’m not willing to accept a lower testing standard because I know that she’s been willing and able to cheat on employer mandated tests before.

With the actual negotiation being slow due to attorney vacations and the like, I’ve experienced a resurgence in her directly appealing to me to deviate from what is spelled out in our existing temporary agreement. She wants to be added back to the checkout list at daycare. She wants me to give her regular unsupervised visit on a weekday. She wants to know why I’m not willing to give her these things since there haven’t been any issues(from her perspective), insisting she’ll understand if I have a reasonable explanation.

I haven’t responded to most of this because (as my L has taught me), she needs to pay her own L to explain things instead of asking me to. Instead, I’ve been doubling down on practicing BIFF responses. That has been really hard because there’s always a followup, even (and especially) after I reiterate that I think her questions and concerns should go through her L. I feel like I’m slowly getting better and not tying myself up in knots about how to respond, but it’s a work in progress.

[grootyoda]

  So of course things escalated as soon as I posted that I felt like I had things handled. BPDw got in touch today to inform me that I was violating our current custody agreement by removing her from the checkout list, requested I change it, and discuss any future changes with her first. I double checked the order just in case, and there’s nothing to support this. Double checked with L just to make sure I wasn’t missing something (I’m not).

So here’s where I need help. The school informed me that their policy would allow her to visit D’s classroom unless I instruct them otherwise. I’m not sure what the call is here. If I tell them not to let her go back, I’m concerned there will be a complaint that I am unduly restricting access. But if I don’t set that boundary, I’m concerned she will use school time to further push the boundaries and cause issues.

[kells76]

Is your D in summer school/preschool/daycare? Or is this for the fall?

[grootyoda]

She’s in daycare full-time. There’s an upcoming  “get to know you” with one of the new hires - basically they hang out in the front so all the parents can put a face with a name and vice versa. She’s indicated she plans on going, hasn’t said whether she plans on trying to visit D while she’s there. It is a little out of the norm for her to make a point of going to one of these, though. That and the fact that she’s suddenly putting near-daily pressure on me about the check-out thing makes me a little concerned she might do something rash.

The way she’s communicating about it “feels” like she’s dissociating. She’s referring to things that aren’t even mentioned in our agreement, like she’s cobbling together an alternative reality where I’m not currently the sole custodian and I need to be the one who has to be careful about seeming like I can’t co-parent. It’s kind of hard to describe.

[kells76]

So, longer term I'm thinking -- have you already given daycare a heads-up, something like: "Hi Daycare, just FYI here is a copy of our temporary custody orders, effective Day/Date. Currently the legally approved checkout list is on Page X. If or when the CO changes, I'll let you know. And please let me know if you foresee any issues working with the CO. Best, grootyoda" ?

Shorter term, for the "meet and greet" -- is this during normal daycare hours, like a "last 30 minutes of the day" kind of thing (meaning D would be on site)? For me, like the church thing, again it'd come back to -- if you're there, and for some reason W shows up and "sneaks" time with D, who is responsible for that? Has your L said "Yes, grootyoda, you are responsible for making sure that Mom doesn't spend unsupervised time with D"?

It's one thing to voluntarily give in (which I wouldn't recommend in your case!) and be like "Well, she keeps asking me, and sounds rational, so I guess I will help her see D unsupervised at the park after daycare, to be fair".

It's another thing when you're trying to follow the CO and W "sneaks in" -- I'd want to be really, really sure what my responsibilities are in that situation. Can you remind me if your L clarified this back when W was trying to see D at church?

...

You're doing well to direct her questions to her L. I can't think of any benefit to "making an exception" to the TCO at all. Your intuition that she's interacting with a constructed reality is probably accurate -- and hopefully can reinforce to you that the safest way for your D to have a relationship with her right now is supervised and under the terms of the CO, no exceptions. Let the judge be the one to make changes to the CO, not you.

[ForeverDad]

A reasonably normal person would conclude that if a person is limited to supervised visits and there is a schedule for those visits, then outside that schedule there would be no other visits or removals allowed or expected elsewhere.

If you allow that then she could naturally claim later, "Well, he lets me sidestep the supervised schedule anyway..."  While this supervised boundary may not last forever, it is the current boundary and you shouldn't weaken it just on her say so.  You know she will be persistent and cast herself as the victim.  Be forewarned.

Of course, court sometimes has a convoluted way of viewing things that is based on past regulations and court polices, so not everything it does is everyday common sense.  Therefore follow your lawyer's advice.

Over the years my ex and I had a few daycares.  I recall one I changed to had been one she'd used before.  I handed the staff the current order and asked the staff to follow it.  Well, ex soon got on their wrong side.  She had arrived early and insisted on taking our child early.  They said No, the order stated a half hour pickup time range, it was still my time.  They wouldn't tell me the details but I was handed a "withdrawal of services" letter starting the following week.  That's when I learned daycares don't want to be in the middle of custody conflict.  (She ruffled feathers elsewhere too, son's pediatrician also had their lawyers write a "withdrawal of services" letter.)

[grootyoda]

So, longer term I'm thinking -- have you already given daycare a heads-up, something like: "Hi Daycare, just FYI here is a copy of our temporary custody orders, effective Day/Date. Currently the legally approved checkout list is on Page X. If or when the CO changes, I'll let you know. And please let me know if you foresee any issues working with the CO. Best, grootyoda" ?

Yes, I took care of that as soon as I had the TCO in hand, and they’ve been good at respecting it so far.

Shorter term, for the "meet and greet" -- is this during normal daycare hours, like a "last 30 minutes of the day" kind of thing (meaning D would be on site)? For me, like the church thing, again it'd come back to -- if you're there, and for some reason W shows up and "sneaks" time with D, who is responsible for that? Has your L said "Yes, grootyoda, you are responsible for making sure that Mom doesn't spend unsupervised time with D"?

It’s towards the end of their regular hours, and it’s not so much a large gathering as “stop by during pickup to say hi”. My L and I haven’t had the exact conversation you’re talking about, but I have informed them about the current situation and I’m waiting to hear back.

It's one thing to voluntarily give in (which I wouldn't recommend in your case!) and be like "Well, she keeps asking me, and sounds rational, so I guess I will help her see D unsupervised at the park after daycare, to be fair".

It's another thing when you're trying to follow the CO and W "sneaks in" -- I'd want to be really, really sure what my responsibilities are in that situation. Can you remind me if your L clarified this back when W was trying to see D at church?

According to my L, all of that is basically at my discretion. There aren’t any caveats on the TCO (meaning I have sole custody, physical and legal). I’m definitely not inclined to give in and tell W outright that she can see D at school unprompted. She hasn’t explicitly said she’s going to try and visit D while she’s there either. So my thought was maybe to just let the daycare know that the TCO allows for visitation during W’s designated supervised times, or at other times agreed upon by both of us, and that as of now she has not communicated with me about having a visit with D on the date and time of the event. That way I’m clearly stating my understanding of things without telling the daycare they “have to” do XYZ. Waiting on my L to thumbs up or thumbs down that before I do it.
...

You're doing well to direct her questions to her L. I can't think of any benefit to "making an exception" to the TCO at all. Your intuition that she's interacting with a constructed reality is probably accurate -- and hopefully can reinforce to you that the safest way for your D to have a relationship with her right now is supervised and under the terms of the CO, no exceptions. Let the judge be the one to make changes to the CO, not you.

None of this has made me feel like loosening things up is a good idea. As rigid as it sounds, I’m firmly in the camp of W getting exactly what is explicitly stated in the agreement, and if she wants something additional she needs to run that through her L so the boundaries are clear. My experience is that any “one time thing” will be understood and communicated by her as the new standing agreement, which in my opinion kind of makes that kind of flexibility a non-option.

[kells76]

Doesn't sound rigid to me at all... sounds reasonable. 

Sounds like you have a good structure for making it thru on the TCO until the official CO gets ironed out.

[grootyoda]

Over the years my ex and I had a few daycares.  I recall one I changed to had been one she'd used before.  I handed the staff the current order and asked the staff to follow it.  Well, ex soon got on their wrong side.  She had arrived early and insisted on taking our child early.  They said No, the order stated a half hour pickup time range, it was still my time.  They wouldn't tell me the details but I was handed a "withdrawal of services" letter starting the following week.  That's when I learned daycares don't want to be in the middle of custody conflict.  (She ruffled feathers elsewhere too, son's pediatrician also had their lawyers write a "withdrawal of services" letter.)

That’s the kind of thing I want to avoid. I’m hoping I can communicate my understanding of what the legal boundaries currently are and leave them to enforce them within the bounds of their policies, vs trying to tell them how to run their daycare. I realize that might not exactly be an option, but I want to make sure I’m acting as a good parent partner to them as much as I can in this situation.

[grootyoda]

Doesn't sound rigid to me at all... sounds reasonable. 

Sounds like you have a good structure for making it thru on the TCO until the official CO gets ironed out.

I start to think similarly, then I get a slew of messaging to the contrary and it’s difficult to turn off, regardless of what I know to be true. Thanks for the encouragement.