Things have got really bad…

[thankful person]

Today my wife has been extremely dysregulated. She has been looking into fostering a child (you don’t need to tell me how ridiculous this is). She is devastated to hear that she may not be allowed due to there being a domestic violence report from years ago. The neighbour reported hearing an argument and my wife told police she had hit me but I refused to press charges 2015.

So the accusations have continued about how I make no effort in the relationship and I have destroyed our sex life so I’ve destroyed her whole being.

Then the worst thing happened. My old Facebook account I shut down in 2014 when I left my ex for her…well I thought I had deleted the entire thing. But apparently I popped back up in her friends list and she can see my entire life with my ex. She’s spent the evening going through it deleting everything before shutting it down again. The main problem is that she’s convinced I reactivated the account when actually I didn’t even know I could do this. Another problem is that she’s so jealous of our time together, travelling the world and doing many different things.

She is even jealous of the fact I used to smoke with my ex. I quit because I realised how much the addiction was controlling my life and making me anxious and stressed and angry not to mention broke. Anyway she bullied me into smoking a couple with her this evening when I haven’t smoked since 2016 when I had my cancer surgery. She wants me to start smoking full time though she is a part time smoker, always has been, for some reason the addiction doesn’t touch her. I know I made this choice tonight but under extreme pressure.

This afternoon I told my wife again that I wanted to go to therapy and at one point she grabbed my hair and threatened to throw me out the door. She’s still promising the relationship is over if I go to therapy, and is saying she wants me to leave.

I just want tomorrow to be a better day but she has assured me it won’t be. The constant accusations are that I don’t care and I show no emotion. But I’m just so tired of it all and yes to some extent I don’t care enough to get hysterically upset which is what she wants.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Notwendy]

Understandably, you just want tomorrow to be a better day as if your wife will somehow switch back into her love mode and- we have seen this as a possibility because of the way someone with BPD can "switch" from painting someone black to white. But I also hope that by now, you know that one can go right back to "painted black" again. Also while you hope that there's something you can do to make this change to good again, we have no control over someone else's feelings.

Her emotional abuse and controlling behavior will go as far as you continue to tolerate it. She isn't recognizing the boundaries of decency. So she won't have "brakes" on it herself. It's you who has to decide when you have had enough of this. This feels risky because it puts the ball back in her court- to decide on the relationship. You so far have not been ready to take that risk. Basically, you put the relationship ahead of boundaries of common decency.

This is difficult. It's also something I have had to work on- not to this extent but to not allow people to treat me poorly.  I was raised with the expectations that I would tolerate the verbal and emotional abuse from my BPD mother. It is scary to begin to change this, because it risked losing the love and approval from my parents. It's a difficult choice.

To take a stand for the boundaries of decency- and I do mean that. Your body and your emotional well being belong to you. You have the right to not allow someone to hurt you physically or force you to eat, drink or smoke anything you don't want to. Your wife doesn't recognize these boundaries. You are the one who has to do that and to take a stand for them.

[Elitevaz]

Wow this is really difficult. You can’t keep smoking. This reminds me of an incident I had where I had a worry that I might have a heart attack risk or something, just a one time thing. I forgot why. I instructed exgf where aspirin was, just in case. Her emotions flared and she she crossed, panicking over my safety. She began to demand that I call 911 right away, even though there was nothing wrong with me in the moment. I tried to reason with her, full power logic, but it wouldn’t calm her emotions. She said if I don’t call, she will, and she did. They asked the address, but she didn’t know it , and asked me. I said I’m not participating in that call because I don’t want to file false reports and get in trouble. She ended the call and of course the embarrassment caused, you guessed it, devaluation! So I humiliated her by LETTING her call 911. Bpd girls want to be stopped. At least my ex did.

Another situation she came to my apartment upset and just flung the door open and walked past me. Then she comes back to me and says "you’re just gonna let me walk past you like that when you know I’m upset and you haven’t seen me?" So, in hindsight, whatever she was pissed about doesn’t matter. Giving her space doesn’t matter. It’s the expression through my action that makes her feel as though I care. That action would be to immediately grab her and hug her. What I did was just stay calm and watch her, hoping my non-reaction would let her cool down.

With this smoking situation, I think you already did the first thing, which is to evaluate the emotions being affected. She’s obviously jealous. Logic is out the window now, we can’t care about your health, you need to give her the same treatment or better. We all know here you shouldn’t be smoking, but the jealous emotion has to be handled somehow, without casting blame on her, but she’s totally wrong and violated your boundaries.

[thankful person]

Thanks guys,

I’ve done better today, I have not smoked despite more pressure that this is “the only way we can connect”. She means we can’t do many activities together without the kids. My wife has switched between more angry jealousy of how I’ve done so many more things than her in my life, been to more places, emigrated, had better friends, better social life, enjoyed drinking, smoking, and my fair share of illicit drugs. Yes I did lots of things but was always unhappy as a teenager and then when my “life partner” told me at 21 he would never want children with me and for the next 14 years I believed I’d never have them. My life story is different from my wife’s because I’m 15 years older and started having children 15 years older too. Also I had more money in my previous relationship because we both worked full time. Also get accused of having a better sex life in my previous relationship, which I’ve never discussed any details with her, I mean it was mundane once a week stuff which yes is far more than what I’m getting now. But then that’s because we don’t sleep in the same bed and I’m not allowed to touch her.

It’s hard to respond to all of this, it has been interspersed with brief moments of affection, normality, her starting to believe maybe it wasn’t me who reopened the Facebook account… At the same time I am on guard because she is still wanting this “more effort” from me, which means she gets very annoyed if I discuss kids, housework, or even offer her a drink.. “How is that making me feel wanted? It’s just normal everyday stuff!” I’m like, “ok but I just wondered if you’d like a drink…”

I am also proud of myself today because I have not shouted. Last week I asked my wife to lower her voice when she was going on at me about something. She pointed out (quite rightly) that I do sometimes shout at the kids. I decided that I’m going to work on not shouting at all (except in moments of danger etc to get kids’ attention). I’ve been doing fairly well with this but it went out the window yesterday but I’m back on track today. My wife did mention on holiday that she felt bad about shouting, when D3 seemed very down when we first arrived and kept saying, “I need to go home”. Yesterday my wife screeched at D3 to get out the room when she was trying to get comfortable on the sofa (I was already banished from the room so I don’t know if the child said or did anything to cause this reaction from my wife, but it was certainly underserved). D3 came out in tears into the kitchen and into my arms and I held her close and she whispered, “Why is Mummy shouting?” (W continued to screech in there a few more times on her own in there with baby) And I just said, “Mummy’s upset because she can’t get comfortable on the sofa”. My heart was breaking and I don’t know what more I can do or say or whether the children would have a better life were we to separate. Not Wendy is this a similar example to when you say your father didn’t stand up for you? Because the kids are so little we don’t really have verbal disagreements etc, but I feel very uncomfortable in “letting” my wife treat our kids like this sometimes but I don’t know how I can go about stopping her. She would just get angry were I to mention it at the time or at any point afterwards. I know that she would have felt bad about screeching at D3 and I do hear her apologise to the kids sometimes. Can I do anything other that leading by example in my lack of shouting?

[ForeverDad]

At what point will you decide, "This isn't working no matter how hard I try to communicate better and use other skills better"?  At what point do you accept that she does not want to improve her perceptions, criticisms and behaviors?

[thankful person]

At what point will you decide, "This isn't working no matter how hard I try to communicate better and use other skills better"?  At what point do you accept that she does not want to improve her perceptions, criticisms and behaviors?

I have been asking myself this for a long time. I know we’re not allowed to pass judgement on each other on here, but I’m getting the impression that there’s not much hope for improving things, which certainly leaves an impression on me. Of course she doesn’t want to improve because she doesn’t see herself as any part of the problem.

[FarDrop77]

It seems like a common thing  for pwbpd to worry about experiences we have in the past.  My wife thinks I had tons of sexual partners and that I had legions of adoring women vying for my attention.  But as far as I can tell we've had roughly the same number of partners.

Maybe some of her anxiety is normal and not bod though.  When I was 20 years younger though (I'm in my 40s) I do remember being intimidated by things my partners had done and felt like if I did them too, the anxiety of not being good enough would fade.  Gradually as I built up experience I started to realize that there were experiences I had that they didn't, and it works both ways.  Like your wife gets to have kids 15 years before you did! I didn't have any until I was 37 and I see the young parents at my kids school and feel jealous, too.  Probably she is extrapolating all these romanticized or dramatized versions of things .. maybe you could take her on a trip to some "exotic" place so she can realize it's a bit neat, possibly a pain in the ass as traveling sometimes is, but not some kind of life altering experience.

[Notwendy]

Thanks guys,

Yesterday my wife screeched at D3 to get out the room when she was trying to get comfortable on the sofa (I was already banished from the room so I don’t know if the child said or did anything to cause this reaction from my wife, but it was certainly underserved). D3 came out in tears into the kitchen and into my arms and I held her close and she whispered, “Why is Mummy shouting?” (W continued to screech in there a few more times on her own in there with baby) And I just said, “Mummy’s upset because she can’t get comfortable on the sofa”. My heart was breaking and I don’t know what more I can do or say or whether the children would have a better life were we to separate. Not Wendy is this a similar example to when you say your father didn’t stand up for you? Because the kids are so little we don’t really have verbal disagreements etc, but I feel very uncomfortable in “letting” my wife treat our kids like this sometimes but I don’t know how I can go about stopping her. She would just get angry were I to mention it at the time or at any point afterwards. I know that she would have felt bad about screeching at D3 and I do hear her apologise to the kids sometimes. Can I do anything other that leading by example in my lack of shouting?

I also don't have clear memories of what things were like at home when I was three- we don't have the words to describe things like that then. I think what I meant is a sum of incidents like the one you described, where the fear of your wife's reaction overrides your sense of what is acceptable for the children or not. Emotional and verbal abuse are hard to quantify compared to physical abuse. It also isn't an all or none thing. It wasn't visible- we had clothing, food, shelter, education. We think of harm when we imagine someone beating a child, or not feeding them.

I think for my father, staying with my mother required that he suspend his own sense of reality in some ways. I think he had to do that. To actually acknowledge her behavior would threaten the relationship. Why he chose to put that first is entirely his own reasons- whether or not anyone else understood it. From what we could see, it was also a very difficult one for him too.

So when you ask is this like what my father did, I think the pattern could be similar. It upset you to  see your wife shouting at your child. However, your fear of your wife's reaction if you intervened was greater than your knowing that this isn't good for your child.

We knew our place in the family and this was to make things as comfortable as possible for BPD mother no matter what. There was always some "reason" to explain and brush off BPD mother's behaviors.

As the adult you are probably weighing a sum of all the consequences of what to do and choosing to not escalate the situation or threaten the relationship as perhaps the better path for the children is a part of it. Children don't understand all of this though. These are complicated situations.

[Elitevaz]

I think if you separate you will lose a large measure of control in helping the children navigate their mothers warped reality. She’ll have them for days at a time, distorting them and you won’t be there to mediate it. At least while you are there they can come to you and you can assure them of what is real and that she is the problem, not them.

[ForeverDad]

I believe many if not most counties in the USA have default parenting schedules (non-binding, as I found out later) that encourage frequent parenting time between parents.  My county states for very young children frequent exchanges so the kids are never away from either parent for more than 2-3 days.

For young children 4 to 10 years or older range it suggests a 2-2-3 schedule where one parent has Mon-Tue overnights, the other parent has Wed-Thu overnights and they alternate the three overnight weekend nights.

When kids get into their older teens they may prefer a home base and if advisable then that's where a non-primary parent may get an alternate weekend and overnight in between schedule.

In my case, my then-spouse got the court's default preference for mother's schedule.  I worked 5 days a week and she claimed she had a flexible schedule.  Until the final decree I had no legal custody and only alternate weekends with an evening in between.  (This is where I encourage our "reasonably normal" members try their best to get the best - or "least bad" temp order.  My court, at least, resisted making any changes to the initial "temporary" order.  They claimed it was only temporary.  Problem was, that temp order lasted over two years!)  Then, based on the Custody Evaluator's recommendation I moved up to equal time and custody... even though I worked full time.  In future years my ex continued misbehaving and so I got full custody.  My ex still continued misbehaving and so I also got majority time during the school year.

It seems court resists making huge changes and so I and my child went through multiple steps over the years, going from alternate weekends to a full reversal.  Her disordered perceptions, behaviors and disparagement of me made the difference.

One of my points is that just because one parent does or doesn't work doesn't mean that decides who the primary parent must be.  Whether one parent works or not is not as crucial a factor as it may have been in the past.

[zondolit]

I think if you separate you will lose a large measure of control in helping the children navigate their mothers warped reality. She’ll have them for days at a time, distorting them and you won’t be there to mediate it. At least while you are there they can come to you and you can assure them of what is real and that she is the problem, not them.

I am separated from my uBPD/NPD husband and my experience is not this at all, though I feared this. In my case, the separation allowed the children to recognize that my husband and I are different and provide very different environments. Prior to the separation, they couldn't see this: it was as if the marriage was dysfunctional and so both parents were dysfunctional. By ending the marriage, I've stepped out of that dysfunction and the children find me safe, consistent, and stable, and they need this. I still fear for the environment they are in when alone with their dad, but in reality children need only one stable parent. There is a lot of repair work we must do when I get the children from their dad, but this repair work is so much easier when he is not around to interfere. If you were to separate or divorce, be assured you will have custody--maybe half time or more--and then you work to provide your children with what they need. I have found this to be much easier while not living with their father.

[GaGrl]

Why would your wife assume that her status would be non-working? Does she believe you will continue to pay all expenses, plus child support? That's not how it works. She also has considerable debt, cannot control her spending, and you can't/won't take on responsibility for her debt.

She thinks she owns you, that you have no alternatives.

She is wrong.

[Notwendy]

I think if you separate you will lose a large measure of control in helping the children navigate their mothers warped reality. She’ll have them for days at a time, distorting them and you won’t be there to mediate it. At least while you are there they can come to you and you can assure them of what is real and that she is the problem, not them.

Nope not in what I experienced. The idea of discussing that the wife is the problem with the kids is triangulation. It makes them into "little adults" and parentifies them. It also borders on emotional incest. The children become the other parent/confidant and align to manage the disordered spouse.

I won't tell you what to do but the only way my father could continue to stay with my mother was to be in alignment with her. It's also the way "normal" marriages should function, with both parents aligned with the goal of the welfare of the children- to meet the children's needs until the children are adults and can meet their own.

For a parent with a PD, they see the child as meeting their needs, not the other way around. I think this is apparent with your wife and it is with my mother. Children meet her emotional needs in some way. Your wife loves to cuddle and breast feed the babies- this is good for the babies. But her ultimate role as a parent is to allow the child to outgrow this and become an independent person. There isn't much of this to see yet as the children are very young, but you can already see the three year old feeling responsible for her mother's feelings and your wife considering another child to cuddle as your children begin to grow out of the baby/nursing stage.

My BPD mother is emotionally low functioning and can't manage without someone to take care of her. However this also is a source of shame for her so she puts a lot into the image of competence. All the threats of leaving or divorce. It's BS. She could not manage on her own. I don't believe your wife could either.

There's nothing wrong with caring for a partner who isn't able to manage if this is the choice. The problem is when it becomes harmful due to abuse ( emotional, verbal, physical) , and this includes financial harm. I don't believe most people choose divorce lightly. I think it's a last chance desperation decision when staying becomes too damaging, emotionally and financially and sometimes physically and they have decided enough is enough. Where your "enough is enough" limit is, is a personal decision.

[thankful person]

Thank you all for the feedback. I certainly have feared not being here to support the kids but then when I’m out at work I’m not here anyway. However I do think my wife gets more angry with them when I’m here - for some reason everything is more unbearable with me around. Zondolit I was encouraged to hear your perspective on this and it made a lot of sense.

Speaking of alignment… not Wendy I do get the impression that your father did a better job of “keeping the peace” than I do. I’m starting to formulate a theory about what’s gone on here. So we went from me doing everything to please bpdw, everything her way. She wasn’t happy but had me where she wanted me. Then on learning more about handling bpd and joining the fam, I started to stand up for myself more, set boundaries, care for myself better. W hated these parts, but my newfound skills of validation, SET, not JADEing were enough to make her finally feel heard which calmed her down for a good while. Now it’s like she has become immune to being validated. So we’re back to, “be and do exactly what I say or this marriage won’t survive…” I feel like your father did a better job of keeping the peace because he knew no other way, whereas I have found bpd family and learnt all these skills, yet it could ultimately lead to the end of my marriage. And yet if it does then it’s still absolutely the right thing because it would be absolutely wrong to be bringing up my kids in that “narcissistic family system” where everything in the family revolves around one parent’s needs and desires.

I hope that makes sense. I’m so tired because I stupidly stayed up texting w (another argument of course following what I thought was a lovely day) and forcing myself to stay awake, and now I can’t relax…

[Notwendy]

Speaking of alignment… not Wendy I do get the impression that your father did a better job of “keeping the peace” than I do. ” I feel like your father did a better job of keeping the peace because he knew no other way, whereas I have found bpd family and learnt all these skills, yet it could ultimately lead to the end of my marriage. And yet if it does then it’s still absolutely the right thing because it would be absolutely wrong to be bringing up my kids in that “narcissistic family system” where everything in the family revolves around one parent’s needs and desires.

I hope that makes sense. I’m so tired because I stupidly stay

I don't think he did a better job of keeping the peace. He did what he thought he needed to do at the time and imho, if it resulted in any peace, it was a temporary, in the moment, relief but his behavior reinforced hers and in the long run led to the dynamics you described, with her being in control of the family and everyone catering to her.

I haven't posted a lot of her behaviors or what we kids witnessed.  I don't dwell on them because, while other posters may not be dealing with similar behaviors- the dynamics may be similar- and so these can be pointed out. But in a nutshell, there was nothing he could have done differently to change the fact that my mother is a mentally ill and emotionally unstable person with BPD.

He did a good job of protecting her from anyone outside the family seeing the dysfunction. Although he acted out of love and concern for her, he enabled her disordered behaviors. If outsiders, our teachers, knew what was going on, they'd have reported the situation to social services.

So I do not advocate for enabling in order to keep the peace, because, in the long run - it doesn't work. It's more difficult in the short term to have boundaries and not enable.

BPD is on a spectrum. Using the tools on this board does help in terms of diminishing conflict by the poster looking at their part in it. This also diminishes the enabling of the partner with BPD. If the changes dampen down the patterns of dysfunction, then perhaps the relationship can be manageable in some cases. But BPD being on a spectrum and a mental illness- it doesn't change the disorder, it's not a cure for BPD. The partner has to assess the situation in terms of their own boundaries.

Not all pwBPD have the same problematic behaviors but there are certain behaviors- not only associated with BPD but they can be- that are beyond what a spouse can do to make better. The tools are not a cure for mental illness. Behaviors like abuse, addiction, self destructive behaviors- these are serious issues that require professional help.

It's confusing because, even people with severe BPD can have periods where they seem to be acting "normal" but they are still mentally ill. Being human, we see these times as somehow connected to our own behavior- as if we have some control over keeping things that way but we don't have control over another person's thoughts and feelings.

Yes, not enabling your wife might lead to the end of your marriage but enabling your wife isn't a solution to your marriage issues and from what I have observed, it did lead to the kind of family dynamics you would wish to avoid. Not enabling might also lead to your wife deciding she wants the marriage and might begin to recognize some boundaries- if she's capable of that. She might not be capable of that. In that case, you will need to reassess this and decide which situation- stay or leave, is the best one (not an easy one either way) for you. You know the results of enabling - the dynamics will not change.

[EyesUp]

I have been asking myself this for a long time. I know we’re not allowed to pass judgement on each other on here, but I’m getting the impression that there’s not much hope for improving things, which certainly leaves an impression on me. Of course she doesn’t want to improve because she doesn’t see herself as any part of the problem.

For a while, I understood "radical acceptance" to mean that I had to achieve some sort of enlightenment about my uBPDxw, in order to accept her.  Later, I realized that radical acceptance could also mean accepting new ideas about myself...  e.g., I never really considered divorce - I didn't want it, I was afraid of it, I resisted it...  but when I finally allowed myself to fully consider it, it was like a revelation.

I'm not advocating divorce - however I am encouraging you to envision what YOU want - for yourself and for your kids. 

In my case, it took a while to get through the FOG, and to start to see things independently and a bit more clearly.  In regard to practice, I think it was Greg Lemond who said "cycling doesn't get easier, but you get faster" - this applies to my emotional readiness and responses to my uBPDxw - Divorce did not make it easier to get along or interact with her, but now I am much faster in processing whatever comes up - and I have a lot more time to be with friends and family and to focus on work. 

Take your time, do what's right for you. If that means sticking it out for the kids, that's a 100% honorable and valid choice. If that means creating a separate home where you can model well adjusted behaviors at least 50% of the time, that's absolutely valid too.

[thankful person]

Thank you not Wendy. I’m so confused and I hope I didn’t cause any offence with my impression your father had things “under control” where your mother’s behaviour was concerned. I think it’s just part of believing other people are better than you - I’m disappointed that I’m not being what my wife wants, but I’m also disappointed when I’m not staying true to the bpd family way of strictly protecting boundaries etc. So whilst it’s a delicate balancing act, I still feel like I’m failing everyone all the time and I guess that’s an important thing I need to work on. I have so much guilt like blaming myself for why my parents have hardly spent any time with the grandchildren. Anyway I’m looking forward to my mother’s visit in a couple of weeks when she gets to meet our 10 month old, he is so smily and active it’s a great time to meet him… (but it seems there are often reasons not to “rock the boat” and of course this is one of them)

EyesUp, thanks for this. Honestly I’m starting to quite enjoy these stories on here of people who have separated and say it’s the best thing they’ve ever done (even when there are children involved). I particularly liked Zondolit’s explanation where you get to be your own person and then the kids can see which decisions are actually yours rather than just going along with the dysfunctional partner. I’m so glad I have bpd family, thank you all again.

[ForeverDad]

Below is a quote that you may be familiar with, in recent years it has been quoted here and there, so I tried finding the earliest documented quote, as you can read below.

The point is that while you're in the middle of an acting-out dysfunctional relationship your parenting ability is of necessity constrained since so much attention has to be diverted to appeasement, peacemaking, concessions, putting out metaphorical fires, etc.  That's not the best (or only) way to set a good example for the children.

Living in a calm and stable home, even if only for part of their lives, will give the children a better example of normalcy for their own future relationships.  Staying together would mean that's the only example of home life they would have known — discord, conflict, invalidation, alienation attempts, overall craziness, etc.  Over 30 years ago the book Solomon's Children - Exploding the Myths of Divorce had an interesting observation (the earliest quote I could find) on page 195 by one participant, As the saying goes, "I'd rather come from a broken home than live in one."  Ponder that.  Taking action will enable your lives, or at least a part of your lives going forward, to be spent be in a calm, stable environment — your home, wherever that is — away from the blaming, emotional distortions, pressuring demands and manipulations, unpredictable ever-looming rages and outright chaos.  And some of the flying monkeys too.

[Notwendy]

Thank you not Wendy. I’m so confused and I hope I didn’t cause any offence with my impression your father had things “under control” where your mother’s behaviour was concerned. I think it’s just part of believing other people are better than you - I’m disappointed that I’m not being what my wife wants, but I’m also disappointed when I’m not staying true to the bpd family way of strictly protecting boundaries etc.

This, right here- is an aspect of your response to your wife and us here on this- the wanting to be what someone else wants. It's not a criticism. It's something I have struggled with too. Makes sense if someone grows up with the goal of wanting to be "good" enough for my parent's approval. But the "goal" of keeping BPD mother happy is an impossible one. I can treat her kindly, but her feelings- those are hers. I can't control them.

There's no way that my father could have done "better" at this than anyone else- because it's not possible. And one of the tasks as adults is that we see our parents as humans, imperfect ones, with their strong points and not so strong ones rather than the good guys and scary bad guys we might see them when we were kids. This also requires that we too see ourselves as humans, not the ideas a person with BPD might wish them to be.

I like EyesUp's interpretation of radical acceptance including ourselves too. If we've been people pleasing- trying to be what other people want - it's possible to lose a sense of who we are. This doesn't mean we aren't kind to other people, or that we don't do nice things for other people, but this is different from enabling and walking on eggshells.

Forever Dad also makes a good point about parenting in disordered relationship.

[thankful person]

Forever Dad, thank you for this, it is reassuring to know that divorce certainly could be the best thing. You’ll understand my feelings that I’d rather be with my kids 100% off the time which is my main motivation of trying to make this marriage work.

Not Wendy, that is so encouraging. I often feel I’m not doing well enough even though I know I’m doing better than before.

I will make a new post as I have news.

[Notwendy]

Forever Dad, thank you for this, it is reassuring to know that divorce certainly could be the best thing. You’ll understand my feelings that I’d rather be with my kids 100% off the time which is my main motivation of trying to make this marriage work.

Not Wendy, that is so encouraging. I often feel I’m not doing well enough even though I know I’m doing better than before.

I will make a new post as I have news.

Yes, my point is- it didn't go well for my father. Our home life was not emotionally stable or happy.  And it was also a mix of good and unstable- as most of these situations can be, which makes decisions to stay or leave complicated.

I can't speak from the other decision- my parents didn't divorce- but if they had, we may not have understood why at first, but later, I would have. BPD mother threatened to do it and when I was younger, it was scary to me. As a teen I began to ask my father why he didn't just divorce. One of his concerns was custody- in their era- it mostly went to my mother and she would not have been able to handle that. It would have become obvious in some way.

Dad also said divorce was expensive but so was my mother's spending.

Divorce is not a failure. It's one of two choices people make when considering which one is the best one for them.

[zondolit]

. . .whereas I have found bpd family and learnt all these skills, yet it could ultimately lead to the end of my marriage.

That is my experience exactly. I went to marriage therapy hoping to save my marriage--willing to do anything to save my marriage--and I finally heard the therapists tell me, in so many words, that I needed to leave my marriage. I read books about BPD and NPD and learned new skills hoping to save my marriage; instead, my husband became more delusional as I essentially started standing up for myself and setting some limits.

Hug that smiley 10-month old for me! 

[thankful person]

Thanks Zondolit, he’s an amazing baby! Mum may even get to see him take some of his first steps
Did your husband seek or join you in therapy? Did he ever say he was disappointed with his behaviour and wanted to change? It’s good to read positive stories of divorce but also very scary and I question whether it’s the right thing to leave my wife, even though she tells me to, I don’t think she wants me to, she just wants me to be “good enough” but she doesn’t realise her brain is preventing her from seeing me as good enough. I am very interested to know the results from her brain scan.

[zondolit]

Did your husband seek or join you in therapy? Did he ever say he was disappointed with his behaviour and wanted to change?

My husband did join me in therapy but he showed no ability to change. The therapy helped me, not him (as far as I can tell), and not our relationship, or it helped me realize I had to leave the relationship.

It’s good to read positive stories of divorce but also very scary and I question whether it’s the right thing to leave my wife, even though she tells me to, I don’t think she wants me to, she just wants me to be “good enough” but she doesn’t realise her brain is preventing her from seeing me as good enough. I am very interested to know the results from her brain scan.

To stay or to leave your wife is your decision. You cannot look to your wife here for what she wants.

What might the brain scan reveal that you would find helpful?

[Gravity Man]

I would like to say to Notwendy that for me, nobody brings more value and insights to this board than you do.  I do not post much, but  have read this board now for several years.  When  you talk about your family growing up and your dad - that is my situation  - I am in the same situation as your dad.  I have two older kids out of the house now and doing well.  Two younger ones with a few years left at home.  It is an impossible situation.  I would like to enjoy life and my kids, but it is difficult. I have made a lot of mistakes along the way.  When my kids are all out in a few years, not sure what I will do.  I know that I will no longer accept abusive behavior to the extent that I do now.

A few weeks ago my wife was railing at me about how bad our marriage was and how bad i was.  I just calmly stated:  "I've been thinking about it and yes, I would like the marriage to work, but I have come to the realization that we might not make it."  She wasn't expecting that response.  It was not a threat.  To me, it was a truthful statement of reality.  The thing is I meant it and she knew I meant it.  She hasn't gone down that road again and things have somewhat improved ... but still not very good and I am under no illusions that this statement fixes anything. 

I have put some thought into this and the next time there is a major blow-up and devaluation, I am going to say something like:  "The message you seem to be giving me is that you do not want me to be part of your life and at some point I have to honor your request."  The thing is that this is not a threat.  This is 100% how I feel and am ready to take action if I need to.

Thankful Person.   You might want to consider some well thought out statements like this.  Although, I am in a much better position now to make these statements than I was several  years ago when I had 4 children in the house.  However, in retrospect, I should have one it then, but to me saving the marriage was everything - but it should not have been.  Forever Dad has some good points.

[thankful person]

What might the brain scan reveal that you would find helpful?

I won’t personally find it helpful because I can see that my wife is traumatised that that this has had a severe effect on how she processes and communicates with the world and continues to do so. I’m hoping that she can become more aware of this herself, should she choose to explore it, and then just maybe she might not see me as such a bad person. It’s hard to fathom making the switch to “This person can’t be helped and is ruining my life…” I know people have to help themselves but it’s just the idea of removing myself even though she says it’s what she wants.

Gravity man, thanks for sharing all that. I also find not Wendy amazing, the amount of thought and time and wisdom that goes into everything she says.. not Wendy I think we all feel like we know your dad and he would have fitted in well into our community at bpd family.

The general feeling I’m getting is that no one here seems to regret their bpd marriage ending, not when kids are involved. This is generally very scary for me. At the moment I couldn’t even say those things like, “yeah maybe we won’t work out” because she literally would just say, “just leave then I’ve wanted you gone for years”. My wife has become much more vulnerable in learning more about her past abuse over the past week. I can’t help loving her more, well of course she is more lovable when she’s not whining and insulting me. I’m not saying that saving the marriage is everything and I do want to put my children’s mental health above this. As I said to Zondolit it’s just hard to figure out when to walk away. Practically speaking, my wife needs me here, evidenced by the amount of pressure there has been on me to miss work (self employed) since new baby arrived. It is an absolute contradiction of her saying “please leave I don’t want you here”. She does have some bizarre ideas about us remaining friends and although in her fantasy world she would get 85% custody of the children, we would remain best friends and probably sex buddies and she thinks I would want to spend all my spare time here.

[Notwendy]

A few weeks ago my wife was railing at me about how bad our marriage was and how bad i was.  I just calmly stated:  "I've been thinking about it and yes, I would like the marriage to work, but I have come to the realization that we might not make it."  She wasn't expecting that response.  It was not a threat.  To me, it was a truthful statement of reality.  The thing is I meant it and she knew I meant it.  She hasn't gone down that road again and things have somewhat improved ... but still not very good and I am under no illusions that this statement fixes anything. 

Gravity Man and Thankful Person- thank you very much for your kind words. I saw a quote the other day that said something about how we emotionally recover when we can share our story to help others. I am so grateful to know that I have helped others here.

Gravity Man- I have an idea of what happened during this exchange with your wife. Your reply was honest, authentic. So many times we walk on eggshells, and plan our words to be what we think is the least upsetting to the pwBPD. What we are doing is trying to control their reaction- their feelings- by being careful. I learned in 12 step groups that co-dependent behavior can be felt by the other person as controlling. Even if it isn't felt that way, they can sense when we are being guarded.

This time, you were authentic. You also were validating. I wonder if other times when she said "the marriage won't work"- you countered it with "yes it will" or got upset which added to the emotions . But you still affirmed your commitment to the marriage. You also made an "I" statement-  Not one that said "you" to her. This is what I mean by having the focus on your own feelings- this is how you feel. You want the marriage to work- that was affirming and yet, you are wondering if this is possible. You could see the difference in how your wife "heard" you. You validated her feelings, shared your own fears about the marriage but also affirmed that you still are invested in it.

You also put the ball in her court for a moment. When the thought of the marriage not working out is so unthinkable and scary - that we have become doormats, cowering when threatened, do anything no matter what because that becomes paramount over everything- we are acting a lot out of fear. We enable them to threaten and say what they want and our response reinforces their behavior. But truly- they have the choice to stay or leave. Everyone does. We can't control another person. And if they say " this marriage isn't working" and our response is- "I am sad to hear this" "I hope the marriage works but I am concerned" - you just connected with her feelings and she either shares your wish to have the marriage work or not. Note- you didn't threaten or say anything about dissolving the marriage. You just shared your feelings, gently. This also took courage. It's a scary thing to say because it does open the possibility for her to decide she's not invested.

There are some topics to avoid spontaneous answers- the "does this outfit make me look fat" is one of them. The only acceptable answer is "honey, I think you look beautiful in everything" 

[thankful person]

There are some topics to avoid spontaneous answers- the "does this outfit make me look fat" is one of them. The only acceptable answer is "honey, I think you look beautiful in everything" 

I’ve tried this line on my wife and her answer is, “No you don’t!” I find it hard to validate this without disagreeing. I’m like, “I understand you don’t feel good about yourself. I find you attractive.” She finds this invalidating of course, because I’m going against her feeling fat.

[EyesUp]

I’ve tried this line on my wife and her answer is, “No you don’t!” I find it hard to validate this without disagreeing...  She finds this invalidating of course, because I’m going against her feeling fat.

Let me validate you by saying:  I've been in this discussion.  Twilight zone.  Deja Vu.  Reading your post is like watching a scene from a movie about my relationship with my uBPDxw...

Cutting to the chase: 

If I could do it all over again - edit the script, if you will - I would have run with "I find you attractive" - hard stop.  Skip the "you" statement.  All the validation, the whole validation, and nothing but the validation.

It takes practice to do this consistently, and you probably deserve an Oscar if you can consistently hit the magic tone that gets through in a positive/acceptable way.  It can be exhausting, but let's face it: so is what's happening now.  Avoiding "you" statements isn't a magic bullet to fix the relationship - however, it removes one red flag from a bull that's predisposed to be triggered by a wide variety of perceived red flags...  In time, reducing "you" statements might help reduce some conflict in which you are inadvertently playing a role, or might help you better assess how you feel about the situation.

[thankful person]

Let me validate you by saying:  I've been in this discussion.  Twilight zone.  Deja Vu.  Reading your post is like watching a scene from a movie about my relationship with my uBPDxw...

Cutting to the chase:  

If I could do it all over again - edit the script, if you will - I would have run with "I find you attractive" - hard stop.  Skip the "you" statement.  All the validation, the whole validation, and nothing but the validation.

It takes practice to do this consistently, and you probably deserve an Oscar if you can consistently hit the magic tone that gets through in a positive/acceptable way.  It can be exhausting, but let's face it: so is what's happening now.  Avoiding "you" statements isn't a magic bullet to fix the relationship - however, it removes one red flag from a bull that's predisposed to be triggered by a wide variety of perceived red flags...  In time, reducing "you" statements might help reduce some conflict in which you are inadvertently playing a role, or might help you better assess how you feel about the situation.

Thanks for this. My usual validation statements start with, “I understand you…” as in, “I understand you don’t feel good about yourself” for example. Without us stating that we have received and noted our pwbpd’s feelings, how to validate?

I actually was successful with the clothes trying on recently when my wife spent well over £1000 on my credit card, she did need new clothes but I needed much of it to be returned but not all of it! So I strategically chose certain items to say, “mmm not so sure about that one, I think the last dress was nicer…” On some occasions she was disappointed so I’d backtrack and say, “well it’s not something I’d wear but then I guess I’m old-fashioned. It’s really nice and looks great on you!” It’s taken me 9 years to get to this level but I would like to get to the level where I can implement some more financial boundaries. She doesn’t have permanent access to my credit card, she did desperately need new clothes but I’m unable to put a limit on her spending. She has her own credit cards but it’s counter-intuitive to use them because the interest rate is much higher due to having a poor credit rating, and as chief wage earner I am responsible for her debt. I wish this was just a cash society tbh yes I seriously am old-fashioned haha.