Dealing with emotional reasoning and validation

[ThatFLGuy]

I've done lot's of research on emotional reasoning but feel like I'm still at a loss with how to deal it and her need for validation.

Lately she has gone from saying things like  "You don't love me", "You don't want to be around me", etc. to "You've never loved me". I try my best to validate but admittedly struggle with validating something that clearly isn't true. Our marriage counselor even pointed out these were thoughts and not necessarily true but she vehemently disagreed with him and continued with "then why do I feel this way?" He asked her to try and frame it differently wanting her to acknowledge that she was telling me how I felt instead of saying how she felt but that went nowhere.

Everything for her is "I feel this way so it must be true"

For context, she has displayed traits for several years but only diagnosed almost 2 years ago. The behavior has been increasing of late because of additional stress in our lives over the last few months. Because of this additional stress we have been fighting increasingly and  I can understand why she doesn't feel loved because I haven't exactly gone out of my way to shower her with affection because she's been lashing out so much.

I have a hard time getting close to her again because of all the resentment I have built up and I hate bringing "my walls down" just to keep getting hurt over and over again. The hard part of this is of course I'm proving her "right" but only because she's pushed me to this because of all the hurtful things that she has been saying lately.

How do I break this cycle?

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[Jabiru]

Hello It's like you say: their emotions can be the truth in their mind, which is hard to reason with.

Have you tried SET and to avoid JADE (justify, attack, defend, explain)?

I also like the gauntlet analogy in this article. Thoughts?

[ThatFLGuy]

I do struggle with JADE and feel the need to defend myself especially when she says I don't love her anymore, etc. I really don't know how I can validate that without proving her right. I have tried saying "I understand how you might feel that way" etc but it doesn't seem to be enough for her. She just keeps prodding saying "Why can't you love me more" or "I guess you really don't care" and so on. Which again ends with the never ending loop of "Why do I feel this way if you love me..."

There are fewer and fewer interactions that we have that don't end in a fight of some kind. Recently she has been projecting almost all of her feelings onto me. The other day she was in a horrible mood and finally left the house saying "I have to get away from you for a while until you can admit what's going on with you!" Another day, we were shopping and I even commented about how I enjoyed spending the day with her and she said "Why are you lying about that? You were miserable all day. I heard you huffing and puffing in the store and you were always on your phone" I've tried explaining to her that she has to stop guessing how I feel and she should just ask if she wants to know how I'm feeling. It seems like she's twisting the situation around to meet whatever she needs it to be.

I am in counseling myself now and my therapist is constantly having to reassure me that I'm not the one losing it, that I'm just a victim of abuse and gaslighting.

I'm at the point of sadly realizing that if she doesn't seek out some kind of professional help then this problem will never resolve no matter how good I get at dealing with it.

[once removed]

when people first learn about validation, it often leaves them with the impression that it is a card you can pull out, magic words as it were, to regulate, or otherwise appease the other person. then they wonder why it goes wrong.

when dealing with a loved one with bpd (or anyone) it is easier to think in terms of "dont be invalidating". because if youre not being invalidating, chances are, you are validating.

but validation is not a solution to a squabble. its an overall environment that you want to build for your relationship.

Lately she has gone from saying things like  "You don't love me", "You don't want to be around me", etc. to "You've never loved me". I try my best to validate but admittedly struggle with validating something that clearly isn't true.

there isnt really anything here to "validate". if someone i loved said this to me, my question would not be "how can i validate this".

first and foremost, i would want to understand what is underlying the feeling. because more than 9/10 times, that is how our loved ones communicate their needs. by acting out, by starting a fight, by excessive clinging, etc. because as frustrating as it is for her to tell you how you feel, shes far worse at identifying and communicating her needs constructively.

i would wager that any one of those statements is, most of the time, really just "i want you to love me", "i want you to show me love", "im feeling insecure and needy and i need reassurance" (it may mean something else depending on the context)

of course, reassurance can lead you into the trap of "validating the invalid", which might mean, for example, arguing with her over whether or not you love her.

the difference between trying to show your wife love and reassurance (which people with bpd traits generally need a lot of) and walking straight into the circular argument of trying to argue or convince her of your love is really going to be unique to her and your relationship. you know her best. you know the language the two of you speak.

the thing is, to step back, to listen with empathy, to not respond with JADE/invalidate, is validating. and that builds trust. thats one way you break the cycle.

[waverider]

There is a catch 22 here, if she tells you she doesn't believe you love her and you say that's not true. That is headlong invalidation of her feelings right there, despite you believing you are actually validating.  Sometimes it is better to just give a hug and a kiss rather than saying they have it wrong. She is actually asking for you to show it, not just say it.

Keep in mind pwBPD will read other people as they would act themselves. As they can often say short lived, or superficial things, they suspect others of doing the same. Often they don't live a consistent reliable "authentic" life, they don't even know what one is, so they don't believe others are genuine and steadfast either, hence the constant paranoia and suspicion

[Cat Familiar]

It absolutely annoys the hell out of me when my husband tells me how I feel and is adamant that he’s right. I’ve developed a strategy which I’d be hesitant to recommend to anyone else, but seems to work for me. To do this, you’ve got to jump in with both feet— no holds barred. I seriously hesitate to suggest this unless you are totally willing to follow through regardless of the response.

When he starts with telling me how I feel and is refusing to hear what I actually think and feel—then I say, “OK, I don’t even need to be here, since you’re playing my role in the conversation too.” And I leave. I spend some time away and then return. I don’t start up with whatever we were talking about and if he chooses to continue the conversation, it’s on him. Should he start filling in my part, I exit once again.

I continue this approach until he gets the message that I’m not interested in participating in a conversation where he’s unwilling to listen to what I think and how I feel. When he gets to the point where he’s open to actually hearing me out, or at minimum, not imputing my responses, then I’m totally available and receptive.

[Cat Familiar]

Oh and another hardball strategy for the “you don’t love me/you never loved me” attack/manipulation, because it really is an attack, disguised as victimhood.

Again, don’t try this unless you’re totally committed:

“You don’t love me.”

“There’s definitely a grain of truth in what you’ve said. I don’t love how you’re behaving right now, however I do love you. And how you know I love who you are is because as unpleasantly you sometimes behave toward me, I’m sticking with you and I’ve got your back.”

Depending upon the circumstances, this could be too many words at once and might need to be broken up into bite size pieces, but it’s kind of shock therapy, and is validating and truth telling at the same time.

Again, you’ve got to be totally committed to try this.

[Stasia77]

Cat, the leaving the conversation advice is good- I have trouble staying calm when told by my bpdh what I am feeling or why I did something and once triggered it goes into JADE. I did something similar once when he started getting insulting, and I said I would not continue conversation.I didn't leave the room, just stopped talking and he rephrased what he was saying without the insults.
I have been struggling a lot with JADE and moving into validating - only recently have I come across all this.
I am thinking of writing down all my greatest triggers and kind of rehearsing responses to get me prepared to avoid unproductive and endless discussions. I need to learn how to desensitise the most annoying accusations... and I keep reading posto here every evening, I find this helps me a lot to process the day. We are in a relatively quiet phase right now, albeit on the detached, silent side which also annoys me but obviously less than the drama.
I admire all of you who are able to get past the resentment/irritation and do the validating...

[waverider]

When he starts with telling me how I feel and is refusing to hear what I actually think and feel—then I say, “OK, I don’t even need to be here, since you’re playing my role in the conversation too.” And I leave. I spend some time away and then return. I don’t start up with whatever we were talking about and if he chooses to continue the conversation, it’s on him. Should he start filling in my part, I exit once again.

Excellent example of boundary reinforcement as you are doing this to prevent your own angst coming out. You are protecting you, and your reactions. I have also done similar, when the empathetic approach is failing, or I am simply not up to it.

At first this will hit the abandonment trigger, but once it is set down as a predictable pattern of boundary reinforcement and you demonstrate you will return and continue as normal without any apparent grudges it also gives them a circuit breaker "out". If however you come back, having stewed on it, and continue with attitude or reprisals it will just escalate. It needs a genuine wipe and restart.

[jaded7]

Lately she has gone from saying things like  "You don't love me", "You don't want to be around me", etc. to "You've never loved me". I try my best to validate but admittedly struggle with validating something that clearly isn't true. Our marriage counselor even pointed out these were thoughts and not necessarily true but she vehemently disagreed with him and continued with "then why do I feel this way?" He asked her to try and frame it differently wanting her to acknowledge that she was telling me how I felt instead of saying how she felt but that went nowhere.

Everything for her is "I feel this way so it must be true"

This is an interesting one, and it seems to be a hallmark of cluster B or just BPD/cPTSD- telling YOU what you are feeling, then internally responding to what they believe you are feeling, then getting angry/upset at you for what they are telling you that you are feeling, even when it's not true. Works the same for intention behind something we say or do.

The immediate response of a person who is faced with someone telling them what they are feeling or what their intention was (when it's untrue) is to say something along the lines of "but that wasn't what I was feeling" or "that's not why I said this or did this".

Which is a type of JADE. And it's entirely understandable, since they obviously are not correct in their assessment of how you are feeling or what your intentions were. So surely they won't feel that way about you once you tell them that's not how you are feeling/what your intentions were.

Which THEN makes the pwBPD feel invalidated and get more angry.

It's a horrible loop. I was involved in it many times and didn't recognize it. I simply could not understand where it was all coming from...why does she think my intentions are bad? why does she think I'm feeling a certain way? (flooded, controlling, needy, etc).

Example. We had a camping trip planned, she always kept a list of food items to bring camping. I knew that, remembered that, recognized how this made her feel 'safe' and comfy for camping. The day before we were to leave for camping (in the afternoon the next day, more than 24 hours later) I called and said

"honey, I know you keep a list of food for camping, can you send that to me and I'll go to the store and get it all".

Her response was

"you don't want to go shopping! you're just trying to cover your ass!"

I, of course, DID want to go shopping. Sure, maybe I should have checked in on the food earlier in the week. I'm a shop the day before kind of guy since I don't want all the food taking up space in the refrigerator etc. But my intentions were 100% good, and I really did want to take that chore off her shoulders and save her the money. I really did, and I was glad to be able to offer it.

I tried to explain to her that I really did want to shop, again thinking that she would hear me and change her belief about my intentions.

"you're worthless in a grocery store! and it would take me longer to fix it than to just do it myself!"

The JADE, my attempt to explain my feelings/intentions, just made her more angry.

She felt that way, therefore it must be true.

So, then, thinking to myself what can I do...I suggested that I pick her up and drive her to the store, where she can then select the right items since I'm worthless in a grocery store, and I would pay for them. At least I can contribute that.

"you just want to see me!" and "you're a sh**ty driver and I'm never riding with you again!"

Then she tells me she already went shopping on Thursday night, no help from me. I didn't know that of course, she never told me or asked for help.

Your partner saying 'you don't love me' feels quite similar. And of course you want to prove to her that you do love her, so you tell her that's not true. Which then makes her feel invalidated. She'd rather have the belief that you don't love her than to hear you and change her story about you.

[ThatFLGuy]

i would wager that any one of those statements is, most of the time, really just "i want you to love me", "i want you to show me love", "im feeling insecure and needy and i need reassurance" (it may mean something else depending on the context)

I have no doubt in my mind that things are where they are because she's afraid. She's finally seen that I'm seriously considering divorce and I'm sure that has made things worse.

For the last few days I have actively ignored the blowups as if they didn't happen, shrugged off the insults and tried to show her that I am there for her. What did I get in return? She called me a narcissist and said that I was just manipulating her and "just trying to keep the peace". Where does it end?

I really do love her but I'm to the point where I have to love myself more...

[ThatFLGuy]

This is an interesting one, and it seems to be a hallmark of cluster B or just BPD/cPTSD- telling YOU what you are feeling, then internally responding to what they believe you are feeling, then getting angry/upset at you for what they are telling you that you are feeling, even when it's not true. Works the same for intention behind something we say or do.

Well said and thank you for your story.

As painful as these stories are to those involved, it's somewhat reassuring to realize you're not alone in this struggle. I suppose that's why we're all here after all...

[M604V]

Not sure that I have any advice per se, but I hear you and I recognize your struggle. I’ve been there and continue to be there almost daily, as I imagine many of the other posters are. You’re safe here and free to let it all out.

It’s the type of treatment that will make you start questioning your own reality after a while, or cause you to start adjusting your own reality in a vain attempt to just keep the peace.

I wonder how much of it fits into the proverbial self-fulfilling prophecy. I know he doesn’t love me. No one can love me. If I push hard enough he’ll eventually do something to show the lack of love. Then I’ll know for sure.

I’ve seen it work retroactively in my marriage. Wife says mean, nasty things like she hates me and wants a divorce. Three months later I do XYZ, whatever, and she’ll then use that to justify her antagonisms from months prior.

Needless to say I/we have spent years trying to get a hold of this stuff. It’s exhausting. A lot of energy has been spent trying to understand them, sympathize. It’s like just when you get it dialed in, just when you think you have it figured out the target moves again.

Can you picture a cat chasing its tail? Being in love with a pwBPD is like two cats chasing each other’s tails, never getting any closer to the goal but expending an awful lot of energy doing it.

I often feel (and a recently becoming more and more tired of) like I have to prove my love and care and devotion. There’s no obvious reason to doubt it but she reserves the right to invalidate it, to question it or to simply determine that it doesn’t exist. Then here I go again, scratching and clawing just to get back to neutral. I understand that this is part of “it”, but it’s a game of which I’m growing tired of playing.

Stay strong FLGuy and take care of yourself as best you can.