Wish I'd found this website 3 years ago!

[HowDidIStaySoLon]

Hi there

Gosh, what an amazing website you have there.
Apologies if I haven't posted this in the right place.

Gratitude, because although I am quite a way down the road, I am still dealing with accusations, and complete intransigence/controlling behaviour with regard to childcare arrangements. It is incredible to see so many people on here who know what BPD is, and have had to deal with it/are still dealing with it on an ongoing basis.

My divorce from BPD ex was granted in November 2021. Sadly, I was so deep in debt from legal fees (ex had refused mediation) that I hadn't insisted on a psychological assessment of ex.

By this point, I had been out of the former family home for almost a year. Around this time, eldest child, son,15, had got sick of ex's manipulation of time with me/deprivation of time with me, and started doing 50/50 of his own accord. Daughter, who was only 11, and as I now know, having things said about me by ex, stayed with ex about 75% of the time. In the UK, where I live, you have no comeback on the person who stays in the former family home.

COVID/legal delays meant no final hearing for my daughter until April 2022, when I was granted 4/14 nights during school time and 50% of all holidays.

Since that time, trying to organise the calendar has been a complete nightmare. Basically, ex refuses point blank to agree with anything I say/suggest/offer. Result for 2022 and 2023, my daughter has stayed with me a reasonable amount less than she was supposed to, and so has my son to a lesser extent.

(He has literally this week - aged 17 and a half - admitted that for the last 3 years, he's just gone along with ex when she's being unfair about holiday/childcare arrangements. 14 y.o. daughter sat there, saying nothing, including when he said that if he is only old enough now to stand up to his mother/my ex, then why should my daughter be able? I accepted this.)

Latest drama, which has brought me here, is trying to sort out ongoing holidays and housing arrangements. In Sept 2023, I laid out all of 2024 in a spreadsheet, exactly as court ordered for my daughter, and 50/50 as son wants, and asked ex to look at it. No. She refused to even open the spreadsheet. I tried and tried, got nowhere. Eventually, we agreed from Xmas holidays to the beginning of the Easter holidays. Radio silence until last week, when I noticed she'd arranged something for the kids (swimming gala) during the first weekend of Easter holidays. I emailed, following on logically from her weekend, all the way to the summer holidays. No, she replied, I don't need that weekend any more, this is what we're doing. And she had organised not only the whole of Easter, but weekends into May, without telling me.

Complete sh*tfest.

I blew up, and explained it all to my son. He's now grown up enough, and pissed off enough, that he has ordered me and ex to be in adjacent cafes this Saturday, and he's going to go between us and tell us how it's going to go with his time (50/50). Great!

Daughter, however, who says she isn't scared of talking to her mum/ex or me, won't engage. Won't say what she wants. Won't say anything. I have told her that I am terribly upset not seeing her all the time we're supposed to, that I only want what is fair, that I am fighting for her. I hope that sinks in.

I have told ex yesterday that the court-mandated time has to start now, and if it doesn't, I will take her back to court. I have been thinking since, and even more since reading posts on here, that I should just take her back to court anyway, because my email will just make her angrier.

Oooooh, sorry for venting. Thanks for reading, if any of you do.
Any advice? Thanks.

[Tangled mangled]

@HDISSL

Welcome to this site, sorry for the mess that has brought you here.

Sh!t fest does not capture what you are going through. It’s horrible.

Persons with bpd / pwbpd have zero regard for court proceedings and orders. You will find that’s a common theme on this site.

From same country as you, my child arrangement proceedings will commence next month. In my case I m the resident parent and was physically assaulted. My children’s dad see them far less often than you see yours. My ex is a low functioning bpd with possible psychopathy.

Just here to say , this site has been a God send. I find in the UK professionals pretend they don’t know about BPD, so don’t hesitate to update court documents with symptoms of your ex illness as they affect the children.
I included in my case that my ex is manipulating the children and that he is irrational and impulsive. All this were with sufficient evidence so the court cannot ignore it when I request a psychiatric evaluation.
I believe he will charm his way through the evaluation but he can’t change the impact of his behaviour on the children.

Wishing you all the best as you navigate these troubled waters. About your daughter, just continue to be the example of a safe parent and when you have time together don’t put her under any pressure for answers. Remember that she’s being groomed to be your ex’s caretaker and ally, girls are very vulnerable when a female bpd parent is involved. As you have observed your son feels less guilt about walking away from mum’s toxic mess but for your daughter it’s 100x more difficult

[kells76]

Hello HowDidIStaySoLong, joining in with Tangled mangled to welcome you to the group

Your situation is very relatable. My husband's kids' mom has many BPD-type traits and behaviors, and we, too, have experienced the frustration with the lack of cooperation, the entitlement, the unilateral decision making, and the disregard for the court order. Believe me, I totally get what a nightmare it is to try to work together with a pwBPD.

I think I'm seeing three main areas of concern for you:

-effective communication with your kids' mom
-how your children are doing
-the court order

In terms of the communication issue:

Since that time, trying to organise the calendar has been a complete nightmare. Basically, ex refuses point blank to agree with anything I say/suggest/offer. Result for 2022 and 2023, my daughter has stayed with me a reasonable amount less than she was supposed to, and so has my son to a lesser extent.

(He has literally this week - aged 17 and a half - admitted that for the last 3 years, he's just gone along with ex when she's being unfair about holiday/childcare arrangements. 14 y.o. daughter sat there, saying nothing, including when he said that if he is only old enough now to stand up to his mother/my ex, then why should my daughter be able? I accepted this.)

Latest drama, which has brought me here, is trying to sort out ongoing holidays and housing arrangements. In Sept 2023, I laid out all of 2024 in a spreadsheet, exactly as court ordered for my daughter, and 50/50 as son wants, and asked ex to look at it. No. She refused to even open the spreadsheet. I tried and tried, got nowhere. Eventually, we agreed from Xmas holidays to the beginning of the Easter holidays. Radio silence until last week, when I noticed she'd arranged something for the kids (swimming gala) during the first weekend of Easter holidays. I emailed, following on logically from her weekend, all the way to the summer holidays. No, she replied, I don't need that weekend any more, this is what we're doing. And she had organised not only the whole of Easter, but weekends into May, without telling me.

I get it -- you created a logical schedule and sent it to your ex. If she were a generally normal person, she would've looked at it, replied something like "OK, that works", and you two could have moved on with a consistent schedule for the kids.

Instead, she stonewalled -- didn't reply, either Yes or No, and you were left hanging with no idea of whether or not she agreed or would work with you.

And then, of course, the unilateral decision making where she didn't ask if you agreed or if it worked. So frustrating!

One approach I've used that has helped me is to first of all assume that the kids' mom won't get back to me on time, won't agree, and won't do anything cooperative or to help the kids.

Instead of phrasing my messages as open-ended -- where I ask her to get back to me, or ask her if she agrees with something --  and instead of phrasing my messages about what's best for the kids (she reacts strongly to that and insists that "the kids don't want that"), I phrase my messages so that even if she does not respond at all, that is still a response that enables me to move forward.

An example of that would be:

"Normal" message: "Hey Kids' Mom, SD15 has an opportunity to do Activity with me, but it's during your time on Day/Date. She really wants to, will that work?"

If I wrote that, the message I would get back would be: "I asked SD15 about it and she said she doesn't want to do it with you, she wants to do it with me. I'd appreciate clearer communication in the future and more respect for my time." Or, I'd get no response and so couldn't plan.

"Skilled" message: "Hi Kids' Mom, does it work with your schedule for me to take SD15 to Activity on Day/Date -- I'd pick up at Time X and drop off at Time Y. If I don't hear back from you by 5pm tomorrow, I'll assume this works. Thanks; kells76"

Notice that even if she doesn't respond by 5pm tomorrow... that means she's OK with it. In your situation, it may help to find those opportunities to say "If I don't hear back from you by Day/Time, I'll assume there aren't any issues/it works for you/you agree that this is the schedule". That way you aren't left hanging waiting for her to respond.

...

In terms of how your children are doing, Tangled mangled had an important point:

About your daughter, just continue to be the example of a safe parent and when you have time together don’t put her under any pressure for answers. Remember that she’s being groomed to be your ex’s caretaker and ally, girls are very vulnerable when a female bpd parent is involved. As you have observed your son feels less guilt about walking away from mum’s toxic mess but for your daughter it’s 100x more difficult

When our kids' other parent has BPD (whether a diagnosis, or "just" traits and behaviors), we often have to change our parenting/stepparenting style. Whether we like it or not, we can't parent normally, but fortunately, we have lots of resources on how to be more supportive of and present for our kids when there's BPD in the family system. One good starting place is this article by Dr. Craig Childress called Ju-­jitsu Parenting: Fighting Back from the Down Position. We also have a section of threads on After The Breakup that includes discussion on shared parenting and helping children deal with trauma. Take a look there for starters -- would be interested to hear if any of that applies to your situation.

...

Do you have still have your lawyer/attorney/solicitor? I hear you about the financial burden -- some areas allow you to file "pro se", I believe, where you don't have to retain a lawyer to file with the court. It may help to do some research online about what you can file when she does not follow the court ordered schedule. Sometimes you can ask a "clerk of the court" (not sure what that role would be called in your area) about the process and what steps to follow.

I cannot imagine a court seeing you as a problem for trying to follow its order.

The bigger question will be -- if you two do go back to court, and the judge says "Ms Ex HDISSL, I now repeat that you are ordered to follow the order", and she says "Oh yes, I sure will", but leaves and doesn't -- what is your plan then?

If/when you go back, make sure you have a reasonable proposal for consequences for when a parent does not follow the order -- something built in like "if either parent does not follow the court ordered schedule (unless divergences are agreed upon by both parties by email), the parent losing time shall add on an equivalent amount of lost time within the next two weeks, announced by email at least 48 hours in advance" or something.

Don't necessarily use that exact language, but the idea is -- you don't want to have to come back to court every time she messes with the schedule. Find a consequence to build in and propose at your next visit.

...

Hope that's a good starting point -- keep reading here and let us know how we can best support you.

kells76

[ForeverDad]

I cannot imagine a court seeing you as a problem for trying to follow its order.

The bigger question will be -- if you two do go back to court, and the judge says "Ms Ex HDISSL, I now repeat that you are ordered to follow the order", and she says "Oh yes, I sure will", but leaves and doesn't -- what is your plan then?

If/when you go back, make sure you have a reasonable proposal for consequences for when a parent does not follow the order -- something built in like "if either parent does not follow the court ordered schedule (unless divergences are agreed upon by both parties by email), the parent losing time shall add on an equivalent amount of lost time within the next two weeks, announced by email at least 48 hours in advance" or something.

Don't necessarily use that exact language, but the idea is -- you don't want to have to come back to court every time she messes with the schedule. Find a consequence to build in and propose at your next visit.

Kells made a very good point, when you seek an order, build in consequences for predictable sabotaging behavior by the ex.

Why is building in consequences a good idea?  Courts ought to prefer a parent seeking solutions rather than creating problems.  Courts make orders and then expect compliance.  People with BPD (pwBPD) are ruled by their perceptions and entitlement.  That fosters noncompliance.  The remedy, if serious enough, is to document the specifics of the noncompliance and return to court for it to be handled.

Very important:  Your ex is not the authority.  (And you're not either.)  Once court steps in as it did for the divorce orders then court is The Authority.  Apparently she hasn't gotten the message.  A court order is not a suggestion.  Sadly few of our exes got the message either.

[HowDidIStaySoLon]

@Tangled mangled @kells76 @ForeverDad - thank you for your replies, I really appreciate them, esp. the advice on how to email, @kells76 (I'm also Irish, btw!)

Lots to think about.
Am about 95% decided that I will go back to court for what in the UK is called an enforcement to a Child Arrangement Order (CAO). It seems the consequences are slight - community service - which won't stop BPD ex from flouting the order, but at least it will be a record in the system, and proof to my daughter that I did fight for her.

[Son's meeting yesterday - he told us both (separately) that the shortfall in nights with me Jan-June this year need to be made up. Told us from now on, he will do week on, week off, and he will decide all dates. He ordered us not to talk about the other person to him at all. I agreed, but said that before doing so, everything I have said about ex can be proved.
Son was to talk to my daughter last night, telling her what he was doing from now on. Whether that will change her refusal to take a stance of any kind over the shortfall in nights with me, I have my doubts, hence the need to go back to court.]

[ForeverDad]

I suspect part of the time son is allowing himself equal time is that he would be there a substantial amount of time with his younger sister who is currently stuck with the parenting schedule order.  She has a few years to go before she ages out of the order.

However, ask your experienced solicitor where teens can seek to adjust their own parenting schedule.  In my country typically the court itself never meets he children.  Counselors, lawyers, Guardian ad Litems (GALs), children's services can meet the children but court doesn't meet them, though it hear the recommendations from those professionals.

A parent can request an in camera interview of an older minor child, usually a teen.  My ex requested one for our 11 years old son and court agreed.  My ex had a bad idea, it didn't go well for her.  We had already had a two day hearing where my ex denied the GAL's statements and it already looked bad for her.  Her request for an in camera interview of our son was a last ditch effort to paint herself better, or at least "less bad".  Too bad that the court just so happened to schedule his interview during my parenting time.  Hint, hint, wink, nod.

Older children, generally approaching or already in their teens, may tell a court whom they prefer to live with, then the court decides.

My son was still 11 years old when my ex wanted him to speak up for her in an "in camera" interview at court.  Courts generally don't hear from young children, though counselors and other professionals may share information less formally with a Guardian ad Litem (GAL or child's lawyer) or an in-depth Custody Evaluator.  (Counselors and therapists get very unhappy when sued or have complaints made to the licensing boards.)  It was the first time - about 5 years after the final decree - he had to appear.  The magistrate and GAL didn't ask him directly, instead they observed his reactions when one parent was discussed versus the other parent.  They watched his eyes and overall demeanor.  That revealed more than words could.

Of course, if court didn't pay attention to subtle clues as my court did the big concern is whether daughter would speak up for herself.  Even your son is not seeking more than equal time, though as I wrote above that may be partly to continue being a support for his sister.

I believe another consideration is that at this time you're only seeking an end to parenting time games, and hopefully make-up time?  Don't be hesitant to ask, maybe you'll get both, maybe not.  My court seemed to only be interested in fixing issues going forward, not past shortfalls.  (It also helps to ask your solicitor, if you use one, to seek make up time, I suspect my lawyer never bothered to ask for more than he was accustomed to see happening in the court decisions.)