narcissist vs bpd

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

I have a question. I have been reading a book on narcissist. The way bpd and npd treat their partners is very similiar, but the npd does so in a very cold and calculated way. It said that they don't have the capability of loving someone or feeling empathy. Is this true of bpd?  They both do the love bombing initially and then move to the demeaning/devaluing and using every intimate detail of your life you have every shared as a weapon against you. The bpd book said that it is common for people with bpd to also have npd. So I'm a little confused.

[CrazytownSA]

I have a question. I have been reading a book on narcissist. The way bpd and npd treat their partners is very similiar, but the npd does so in a very cold and calculated way. It said that they don't have the capability of loving someone or feeling empathy. Is this true of bpd?  They both do the love bombing initially and then move to the demeaning/devaluing and using every intimate detail of your life you have every shared as a weapon against you. The bpd book said that it is common for people with bpd to also have npd. So I'm a little confused.

[Tangled mangled]

I’ve experienced similar confusion trying to tell exactly what I was dealing with.
The main difference I’ve found between both disorders is that the NPD craves admiration while the bpd craves nurturing.
Most people are comorbid and I’ve learned that the label doesn’t matter at all. What matters is that their behaviour is abusive and the relationship is one sided.

I’ve heard people talk about their pwbpd not being as bad as those with NPD, like the pwbpd was somehow superior amongst both disorders.

If I had to choose between the two I would choose NPD because they mostly have a stable state and their narc cravings can be satisfied to a reasonable extent than the bpd craving that keeps changing from moment to moment.
A partner with bpd is far more damaging around children as their low functioning state is very damaging to a child’s wellbeing.
My parents were a mix of both disorders. My mum a bpd/covert   NPD and dad a malignant NPD. They were both high functioning too but abusive. Our household was a stable war zone, even though my mum was demanding, her needs were quite stable .

[HoratioX]

From what I've read, both are "Cluster B" personality disorders, which are the severest and most malignant. There is some overlap in symptoms/behaviors among Cluster B disorders, though the causes may be different. In addition, some, perhaps many, people who are diagnosed with one are comorbid with at least one other. So the likelihood in seeing similarities is high.

Diagnosis is also not an exact science. So, depending on the skill and training of one therapist, someone could be diagnosed differently than by another therapist with a different skill set and training.

For instance, my ex initially told me she had anxiety, which is what she'd been diagnosed with by one therapist. She later said it was complex PTSD, which she said was diagnosed by another. Not long before we broke up for good, she said yet another therapist said she might be borderline personality. She showed me some paperwork, but overall, I had to take her at her word. Given the propensity of people with these disorders to lie or, perhaps, misremember the truth, I can't say with certainty what she told me was true, if any of it.  Or, it's entirely possible she actually had more than one disorder.

Something else: I've read that sometimes therapists purposefully diagnose borderline personality disorder as something else because of stigmas attached to that diagnoses. Those stigmas can affect treatment and even how insurance views paying it. So, it's possible some people are given a different diagnoses as a kind of workaround. That all sounds weird to me, but then I know medications are sometimes prescribed for illnesses like borderline personality disorder that really intended to treat other things, an approach that isn't all that unusual in medicine in general.

[CC43]

Hi there,

I have a diagnosed BPD and an undiagnosed NPD in my life, and I've also observed many similarities between the two.  They both have unstable relationships and difficulties functioning in daily life, for example trouble finishing school, holding a job and maintaining their home environment.  They would not be described as steady, dependable or conscientious.  A red flag is getting evicted or kicked out of rooming situations, but if you hear their explanations, it's always someone else's fault.  I'd say another commonality is extreme demandingness of others, while giving little in return.  Both BPD and NPD seem to crave attention from others, to a high degree. When they get the attention they need, they can be delightful.  But both BPD and NPD can express out-of-control anger when they are not getting the attention they want.  In my experience, I think they both are very manipulative, and they tend to exaggerate and lie extensively, twisting fact patterns to serve their purpose, often to blame others and avoid responsibility.  A difference is that BPD try to play the victim, while NPD try to look superior.  Both try to hurt you in the process.  The BPD hurt is emotional pain projected onto you.  The NPD hurt seems more intellectual, designed to humiliate or hobble you.

I'd say the key difference stems from their opinion of themselves.  The NPD believes he's special and superior to others.  He craves being the center of attention, and if you give him attention, you can see him revel in it.  He can be charming and charismatic in those moments.  Yet he is so convinced of his gleaming superiority that he's blinded by it.  He becomes arrogant and entitled.  He's unable to appreciate that others have talents and virtues.  And if others are getting attention, he can't stand it; in response, he can act petulant, or mean, or insulting.  It's like every day is his birthday, and he wants cake and presents all for himself, and he has a meltdown when it's someone else's birthday.  So I'd say the central theme is an overly positive self-opinion, devoid of humility.  But lurking beneath the surface is some fragility, because his ego needs to be constantly fed by others' admiration.  If he's not getting enough attention and admiration, he's upset and jealous.  He can get aggressive and mean as a result, and maybe a bit depressed.  He's not a content and happy person underneath it all, despite his high opinion of himself and his uniqueness.

The pwBPD also needs to be fed attention.  She's also very demanding of others in seeking this attention.  She can appear to be empathetic, because she's hyper-focused on others' moods, words and tone, as she feeds off of that.  She can be intensely attuned to you, and for a time that can work well.  Yet she is full of self-doubt, and her general outlook is very negative, leading to an overly negative opinion of herself.  She has very low patience and frustration tolerance, leading to unstable moods.  She's snappy and passive-aggressive.  She'll suddenly quit--a job, a relationship, or a commitment--because it's too challenging or temporarily stressful.  When she's not getting what she wants, her negative emotions take over, and her logical mind goes haywire.  She knows she's upset, but she can't figure out how to deal with her emotions or the problems of the day, so she'll blame others.  Then her "trauma response" kicks in, and she'll either fight (rage/tantrum) or take flight (cut people off).  She'll typically bring up ancient slights or past grievances, twisting facts to make herself out to be a victim, instead of facing a current problem.  She'll adopt a victim mentality, which means she's stubbornly unable to take responsibility or have agency in her life.  She doesn't fight fairly.  When she doesn't get what she wants, she might threaten suicide, and because her outlook is so negative, sometimes she means it.  It's hard to tell if she really means it or not--she seems so manipulative, and yet she's also so unstable, she herself probably doesn't know from minute to minute.  Her feelings are dark and intense, and she often can't handle them, so she projects them onto her loved ones so that they feel how much pain she's in.

That's just what I've experienced.  I hope that perspective helps.

[EyesUp]

In the time that I've been posting here, I've described the disordered person in my life as n/BPD but mostly as BPD. 

For a time, I found some comfort in seeing the similarities between what I observed in my experience relative to what others described, and also relative to what appears in various b-cluster literature.

Candidly, I came to a point where attempting to define it became less important for me. 

Does my ex have N behaviors?  You bet.  But I'm not a clinician or any kind of mental health professional - and even the professionals struggle with this stuff.  So I no longer feel compelled to try to pick or prioritize N vs. B when attempting to understand or describe the behaviors I've experienced - and I generally roll with "pwBPD" when posting here, and I don't think there's ever been an instance when someone said "whoa, I think you're actually describing NPD" as if it would make a difference...

Learning about the differences and similarities between N and B was eye-opening and ultimately helpful to me.  However, at a certain point, these PDs are like many other things - on a spectrum that blends fluidly (the "comorbidity" aspect), and which can change over time based on individual progression and circumstance. 

These behaviors are not static, and the definitions and frames - while useful - are not necessarily the last word.

Depending on your situation, my suggestion is to use the literature and frameworks to understand the behaviors - but more importantly - to understand your relationship to them.

[Notwendy]

I think the PD's can overlap. In addition, they are on a spectrum, so I don't think it's possible to say one is "worse" than the other in terms of function. Both cause issues in relationships. It makes sense to consider the behaviors that are most problematic.

My BPD mother meets the diagnostic criteria for BPD and she also meets diagnostic criteria for NPD. So which is which? She meets more criteria for BPD than NPD (all BPD criteria) and these behaviors are more problematic for her as they limit her ability to function in daily tasks. She is primarily BPD.

Both BPD and NPD inpact her relationships, however, her relationships are more impacted by her NPD.

By contrast, I know someone casually who is only BPD. He is a successful professional. His NPD does not negatively impact his daily functioning. He is able to earn a living and provide for his family. As to relationships, he's difficult to be around. His family appears "OK" on the outside but if people who know him even casually have difficulty being around him, being married to him is probably difficult.

I also know someone who is only BPD. She doesn't have NPD traits.  She is anxious and insecure and needs a lot of reassurance. She has emotional swings. I only know her casually, so it's not the same as a close relationship but the feeling being around her is that she needs a lot of attention. It is more a problem for her.

I think both are difficult for the people who have the PD's and also people in relationships with them, but it can vary a lot. Maybe one (my own guess) observation is that pwBPD are impacted more personally with BPD and also with relationships, while pwNPD may not be as personally impacted- to them they think they are doing just fine, but it's very difficult for the people who are connected to them? To have both would be a more difficult situation.

[Notwendy]

I meant to say he is only NPD.

[Gerda]

The main difference I understand between BPD and NPD is that people with NPD are better at fooling themselves into thinking they're perfect. I tend to think of NPD as being like what people with BPD wish they were, but they're not quite making it.

They both have extremely delicate egos and just can't handle the idea that they'd be flawed in any way. People with NPD are said to create a "false self" because they can't handle their real self. I think that people with BPD wish they had a false self, because they think that any flaws in themselves make them completely bad and worthless (the "splitting", black and white thinking of BPD), but it's like they haven't quite managed to create one.

Take my husband, who probably has BPD, but also has a lot of NPD traits. He wants told me, in one of his unusually honest conversations, that he wishes he was a lot more "charming," so that he could "get people to do what I want." He said that he thinks the reason he has trouble with "getting along with people," is because he's not charming enough, and went on to talk about other people he's known in his life who could "get people to do whatever they wanted" because they were so charming.

I didn't tell him that I thought "getting people to do what I want" perhaps shouldn't be his main goal in relationships to begin with, but it also struck me that basically he's describing someone with NPD (or maybe even antisocial personality disorder) as the type of person he wishes he was. People with NPD and ASPD are often described as being very charming and manipulative.

The way I see it is that people with BPD are just too emotionally unstable and insecure to keep up the "false self" that people with NPD manage to create.

I also speculate that people with ASPD have become even more "successful" than people with NPD, to the point where they don't even care about other people at all anymore. They no longer have the need that people with BPD and NPD have to be liked and admired. Other people are just objects to be controlled and manipulated.

[jaded7]

A question I, and many of us, have pondered in an attempt to make sense or understand the behavior of our loved one.

I take some comfort in listening to experts in these personality disorders saying that the rumination and video watching in order to understand what happened is completely normal. Our brains have a need to try to make sense of what happened, of their confusing behavior, of their hurtful behavior when they say they love us.

I've come to understand that, as someone has written above, the cluster B personality disorders are all of type, with some real but sometimes subtle differences. And they can be fluid, and different professionals will diagnose differently in the same people.

The cluster Bs do share difficulty in relationships and difficulties in empathy. They seem to share some deep-seated shame and guilt issues, which leads to the defense mechanisms that are common.

Ultimately, I've come to think of my ex as both covert narcissist and bpd.

We should throw cPTSD into this mix as well, since it has huge overlap with bpd, and is often used as a diagnosis when the person has bpd. cPTSD is not an official diagnosis as far I as I know, at least in the US. My ex told me she was diagnosed with cPTSD, but I didn't know what it was at the time. She shared a text she sent to an interviewer who talked to her about cPTSD in which she said it caused problems for her in her interpersonal relationships and she found it hard to be vulnerable in relationships.

She said this to him, never to me. She did share that text though. We never talked about her cPTSD unless it was in the context of her being 'mad' at me for something I did (imagined usually). We never had deep conversations about how her condition affected me, our relationship, etc.....becuase that would have required vulnerability. We did talk ad nauseum about what she 'needed' , what I 'needed' to do, how she 'needed' _______ or __________ from me. I could never understand why.

In the big picture, it's the behaviors that matter. Is your person verbally abusive? Do they call you names and explode in anger? Do they gaslight you and lie? Do they belittle you? Are you confused much of the time in your relationship?

[kells76]

We have a Q&A about NPD vs BPD with over 24000 views spanning over a decade. Needless to say, it's a hot topic, though I'm sure all of us wish we didn't need to know about it  

Kernberg's differentiation here seems helpful:

How to Distinguish NPD from Borderline Personality Disorder

pwNPD traits differ from pwBPD traits in that pwNPD traits have a relatively stable self-image, and lack self-destructiveness, impulsivity, and abandonment fears.
 
Otto Kernberg MD (Cornell) differentiates between the person with NPD and those with borderline personality disorder (BPD) on the basis of:
 

(1) their relatively good social functioning,

(2) their better impulse control, and

(3) their "pseudosublimatory" potential, namely, the capacity for active, consistent work in some areas which permits them partially to fulfill their ambitions of greatness and of obtaining admiration from others.  Highly intelligent patients with this personality structure may appear as quite creative in their fields:  narcissistic personalities can often be found as leaders in industrial organizations or academic institutions; they may also be outstanding performers in some artistic domain.  Careful observation, however, of their productivity over a long period of time will give evidence of superficiality and flightiness in their work, of a lack of depth which eventually reveals the emptiness behind the glitter.  Quite frequently these are the "promising" geniuses who then surprise other people by the banality of their development.  They also are able to exert self-control in anxiety-producing situations, which may at first appear as good anxiety tolerance; however, analytic exploration shows that their anxiety tolerance is obtained at the cost of increasing their narcissistic fantasies and of withdrawing into "splendid isolation." This tolerance of anxiety does not reflect an authentic capacity for coming to terms with a disturbing reality.

Except for instances of severe forms of NPD, these individuals are more capable of high, sustained achievement and will have a more successful work history than the person with Borderline Personality Disorder.
 
Both persons with NPDs and BPDs place great importance on attention; however, unlike borderlines, who "seek nurturing attention because they need it, narcissists feel they deserve admiring attention because of their superiority."
 
Persons with either Narcissistic Personality Disorder or Borderline Personality Disorder tend to have have weak interpersonal relationships, struggle to love others, have difficulty empathizing, are egocentric in their perceptions of reality, and have a great need for attention.  Unlike the borderline personality, however, because the personality of someone with NPD is more well-integrated, people with NPD are less likely to have episodes of psychotic states, especially when under stress.
 
A key distinguishing feature of BPD is neediness; in contrast, for NPD an important discriminator is grandiosity.  Likewise, persons with NPD are less self-destructive, have better impulse control, a higher tolerance for anxiety, and are less preoccupied with dependency and abandonment issues than are BPDs.
 
Finally, the self-mutilation and persistent overt rage that are often characteristic of the borderline personality are absent in NPD.
 
Kernberg, O. (1984). Severe personality disorders. New Haven: Yale University Press.
 
Ronningstam, E. (1999). "Narcissistic personality disorder."  T. Millon, P. Blaney, & R. D. Davis (Eds.), Oxford Textbook of Psychopathology (pp. 674-693). New York: Oxford University Press.

Hope that helps;

kells76

[CC43]

Kells, that Q&A post is very helpful, at least in terms of assessing whether a person demonstrates the behaviors typical of the diagnosis.  I understand that everyone is different, and on a wide spectrum, but narrowing down the pattern of behaviors can help in learning what to expect, and how to cope with the behaviors.

Regarding the uNPD in my life, I find the following description fits 100%, especially the part about breaking rules (because he's special), while at the same time expecting everyone else to "perform" for him and abide by the rules:

   "Narcissistic individuals feel that they are special and unique in ways that others aren’t. They lack empathy to a stunning degree, and are amazed when others protest their poor treatment of them. They expect privileges and indulgences, and they also feel entitled to exploit other people without any trace of reciprocation. Their behavior is contemptuous towards others, a dismissive attitude towards other people's feelings, wishes, needs, concerns, standards, property, work, etc. In their minds normal rules don’t apply to them and they will break them when they feel they can get away with it, yet they expect others to follow them."

Maybe the way I see it sometimes is that the NPD is as demanding as a baby, and the BPD tends to act like one.

[kells76]

In the big picture, it's the behaviors that matter. Is your person verbally abusive? Do they call you names and explode in anger? Do they gaslight you and lie? Do they belittle you? Are you confused much of the time in your relationship?

jaded7, for me that ties in to CC43's comment -- at the end of the day, BPD or NPD, we get to choose how we respond to the person's behaviors, which are the bigger deal than the label. And we can respond in lots of ways, including protecting ourselves from being hurt.

I understand that everyone is different, and on a wide spectrum, but narrowing down the pattern of behaviors can help in learning what to expect, and how to cope with the behaviors.

CC43, that makes sense -- learning how to cope more effectively is a big goal. If someone is off behaving "PD-ish" in a vacuum away from me, then I'm not really invested in deep diving into "is it BPD or NPD or something else". It's the impact on me and my life that brings it home. How can I have the least unsafe, most functional, most protective of the kids, relationship that is possible? Like you said, there's a wide spectrum, which can include a wide spectrum of possible relationships, ranging from legal protections with zero contact, through close family interactions. There's not one answer for every situation, but educating ourselves and skillbuilding can really help.

[Pensive1]

Prior comments answer the query well, but I'll add a few minor tidbits. A deficiency in affective empathy is a core feature in NPD, but not BPD. My ex is pretty pure BPD, with little narcissism. I don't think I could be attracted to someone who lacked high levels of affective empathy. Though someone with BPD can be very unempathetic while highly emotionally dysregulated. And as others have said, there are considerable rates of comorbidity between BPD and NPD (e.g., my adoptive mother was predominantly BPD but with strong narcissistic traits). I would say that people with NPD need constrant attention while people with BPD often can't tolerate being alone (a slightly different thing). Also, people with BPD and people with NPD can often attract each other (with relationships that take off like a supernova, given the intense initial mutual lovebombing).

cPTSD is a newer diagnosis, and can be found in ICD-11 (International Classification of Diseases 11th Revision - the global standard for diagnostic health information), but isn't included in DSM5. Many people with cPTSD also qualify for a diagnosis of BPD (and protracted childhood trauma can predispose to both), but they are actually quite different things. I have cPTSD, but only meet one of the nine criteria for BPD (i.e., I struggle with dissociative symptoms - typical with any form of PTSD).

[ParentingThruIt]

I got my ex to go to a joint therapist - once - with the goal of talking about coparenting issues. He went in trying to blame me for all his issues/our marital problems and the therapist actually validated my choices. He refused to go back. In a debrief with the therapist, she said he was probably NPD due to his inability to see his own responsibility and propensity to blame me for everything.

I don't have a diagnosis for him besides Anxiety but I believe he's BPD not NPD. He is very emotional and cares deeply. I agree that the behaviors are similar and it's confusing, and he may have a splash of NPD too, but I think he's very emotionally invested but also unstable and doesn't have a clear sense of where he ends and others begin. And he gets overwhelmed by many situations and tries to control his environment to stop himself from spiraling.

The book Splitting does a good job of talking about NPD and BPD and how similar approaches can often be effective for both (boundary setting, clear but brief communication, not taking their behaviors or words personally, etc).

[Pensive1]

He went in trying to blame me for all his issues/our marital problems and the therapist actually validated my choices. He refused to go back.

People with BPD are notorious for blaming others for everything and not apologizing (just as with NPD). I had an experience similar to yours. Early in our relationship, my BPD ex and I briefly went to a couples therapist. She quickly dropped out, claiming that the therapist was blaming her for everything and totally taking my side. That wasn't true at all. He was actually pretty even-handed in his feedback. But she couldn't tolerate a therapist critiquing her actions at all, even to a tiny degree. For the last decade of our relationship, I repeatedly begged her to go with me to a couples therapist, but she refused, given that initial experience (and her distorted perspective on what happened in it).

[ParentingThruIt]

Thank you.  I tried to get him to go to a couples therapist for so long. Well put on the distorted interpretations. They make it so, so, so difficult.

I think he generally believes what he is says. There are elements of control and manipulation to be sure, but he also genuinely believes it.