Accident Non ... how to get out completely?

[Depression = 72% of members]

In many ways, it's nice to read Non forums and realize that I'm not the only one affected by BPD.  For me, it's a girlfriend I dated for 7 months.  I broke it off once and for all last December.  She has made my life a living hell ever since.  Initially after we broke up, I felt obligated to be supportive, be "there" for her when she needed, and for the first couple weeks it was OK.  Looking back, the first couple weeks after we broke up were a paradise compared to the hell-hole it is today.  Now, I am a prisoner of her BPD, a slave to her abondonement issues.

I differ from most people on this forum and others like it, because I do not miss my BPD, I do not still love her, and I do not long for the good times.  The only true regret I have about breaking up was that I didn't move and change my number before hand.  I tried to be supportive of her, and take responsibility for the heartbreak I caused, but in no way do I deserve the constant threat of suicide given in horrific details.  I know I am not responsible for her life, but when she tells me "I'm going out with a bang, and I'm ensuring you and your son will see it.  Blood will be on your hands literally, and I hope I scar you for life!  I will haunt you!" ... .how am I supposed to respond to that?

She sees her therapist once a week for 50 minutes.  She lives with her mom, but they largely ignore each other.  The rest of her time is spent threatening me with suicide, unless I make promises I do not want to make.  I literally spend 3-10 hours a day either talking her down by selling my soul to her, or waiting for the next blow up.  I want her gone so bad.  I wish I never met her.  That said, I do not want her dead.  Can anybody here provide some guidance?

[accidentalnon]

In many ways, it's nice to read Non forums and realize that I'm not the only one affected by BPD.  For me, it's a girlfriend I dated for 7 months.  I broke it off once and for all last December.  She has made my life a living hell ever since.  Initially after we broke up, I felt obligated to be supportive, be "there" for her when she needed, and for the first couple weeks it was OK.  Looking back, the first couple weeks after we broke up were a paradise compared to the hell-hole it is today.  Now, I am a prisoner of her BPD, a slave to her abondonement issues.

I differ from most people on this forum and others like it, because I do not miss my BPD, I do not still love her, and I do not long for the good times.  The only true regret I have about breaking up was that I didn't move and change my number before hand.  I tried to be supportive of her, and take responsibility for the heartbreak I caused, but in no way do I deserve the constant threat of suicide given in horrific details.  I know I am not responsible for her life, but when she tells me "I'm going out with a bang, and I'm ensuring you and your son will see it.  Blood will be on your hands literally, and I hope I scar you for life!  I will haunt you!" ... .how am I supposed to respond to that?

She sees her therapist once a week for 50 minutes.  She lives with her mom, but they largely ignore each other.  The rest of her time is spent threatening me with suicide, unless I make promises I do not want to make.  I literally spend 3-10 hours a day either talking her down by selling my soul to her, or waiting for the next blow up.  I want her gone so bad.  I wish I never met her.  That said, I do not want her dead.  Can anybody here provide some guidance?

[atwittsend]

hey brother.  you are fortunate to have been able to disengage within yourself.  her threats are ruthless.  can you get a restraining order?  to me it feels like you could get some sort of order of protection.  and enforce the hell out of it.  let her see consequences and she will tire of you.  she may go a little hay wire if she gets served but she will move on I think. 

you can never discount a threat like that.  call the cops every single time she threatens to kill herself.  get a tape recorder if you have too.  dont waste your time trying to calm her down. 

[GodofNietzsche]

Call the cops.  After she's thrown in the hospital enough times, she'll stop.

Talk to her mom/family.  They probably have dealt with it.

I wish I would have called me ex's family about her drinking.  I'll never know how bad she actually was (I was abroad), but she definitely could have killed herself. 

[accidentalnon]

RO?  Really?  I wouldn't think it's applicable since she's never threatened me with harm ... .only herself.  The worst she's threatened me with directly is contacting friends and family to reveal my deepest, darkest secrets.  I'll call a civil attorney in my state and see what my options are.

I use the 911/cops call as a trump card.  I was so close to calling them last Saturday night.  That threat always snaps her back a little bit, and she immediately begs me not to because of how it'll affect her ... .her job, her family, etc.  It's good because it immediately starts her thinking of tomorrow, and snaps the immediacy of suicide from her.  I hate to say it, but she's threatened me with suicide so many times, I almost roll my eyes now when she starts.  Still, she says vile and disturbing things about it.  I shudder at the notion of getting it wrong someday.

Most frustrating for me is her therapist & mom.  I know they are very concerned for her, but they don't experience one iota of the hell I do.  I've illustrated to them the way she is to me, but I think they're both pretty clueless.   I wasn't married to her, and she's not the mother of my child.  She's a girl I dated for a while and had genuine feelings for, but whom I wanted to dump because I got tired of the eggshells.  I just feel completely alone in dealing with her.  Me, the one with the least vested interest in her, yet each day is consumed by her.

[atwittsend]

your the one she likes so she has to be the biggest psycho to you.  its so self defeating.  burn the trump card brother and call every time.  otherwise your stuck in limbo and will feel some sort of responsibility if she actually tries and you rolled your eyes at her.  even if you dont love her you are human. 

(an awesome human by the way for still trying to help her)

the RO... .Im thinking she threatened to do this in front of you and your kid.  surely the cops will see that the kid needs to be protected

[GlennT]

I've known two women in the past who have threatened, and successfully committed suicide after their friends rolled their eyes. I would not take these threats lightly. You need to have 911 on speed dial and call if she ever says these words again. Also, her therapist can be fired and black-balled after you tell her/him about her threats,and he/she does nothing. You must tell her therapist. It is your ethical duty.  If you want out completely, you can change your SS#,name, and move.

[2010]

I differ from most people on this forum and others like it, because I do not miss my BPD,

Well, AN- How would you now this since she's still in your life everyday? Seems to me that you're still a couple- you just see the relationship differently than her.

Speaking from experience- I have to ask you- do you really believe that you were so wonderful that if you leave her, she might commit suicide?

She has abandonment issues, sure- we all do. But to continue enabling her usage of you as the solution to all her problems- reeks of your own Narcissism. The thinking that you have something to do with whether or not someone else may live or die based on your actions is incorrect.  No one is that important to be responsible for someone else taking their life. If you think otherwise, then I suggest you re-think things.

Suicide threats are manipulation, plain and simple. Genuine suicide threats are not. The way to tell the difference is whether or not an actual attempt has been made- then you have REAL trouble. And real trouble is out of your hands my Brother. It's for professionals to deal with.

I hope you have the time to research *enmeshment* It will give you an idea of how you've recently been living your life.  Once you begin to see what you're doing- you may begin to recall things from earlier relationships. For instance, another person that this ex-girlfriend reminds you of. That's the key to understanding your own behavior on this and why you cant close the door.

She's using you. You're letting her. Try to figure out why. In the meantime- turn her over to the professionals. *Call 911*

[GodofNietzsche]

I differ from most people on this forum and others like it, because I do not miss my BPD,

Well, AN- How would you now this since she's still in your life everyday? Seems to me that you're still a couple- you just see the relationship differently than her.

Speaking from experience- I have to ask you- do you really believe that you were so wonderful that if you leave her, she might commit suicide?

She has abandonment issues, sure- we all do. But to continue enabling her usage of you as the solution to all her problems- reeks of your own Narcissism. The thinking that you have something to do with whether or not someone else may live or die based on your actions is incorrect.  No one is that important to be responsible for someone else taking their life. If you think otherwise, then I suggest you re-think things.

Since when did you become a psychologist?  Calling him a Narcissist?

Attack the guy when he asks for help?  What, did you have a bad day?

Some people actually do commit suicide when their partner leaves them.

[2010]

I had to come to terms with my own narcissism when it came to other's threats of suicide. The responsibility (autonomy) should remain with each individual concerning what to do with their own lives. Thinking that you are responsible for another person's choice to end their life is related to ego (narcissism)

When people ask for help in this manner-by threats- it's important that they do not attach to one person as a saviour and instead begin the process of finding their own strength. To otherwise block that process is an ego trip.

Speaking from experience.

[PotentiallyKevin]

Slow down, friend, hes not attacking him, just giving him his observations.

I have a hard time with the word "Narcissism" and even more of a hard time with the word "Codependent." I have seen people in these types of relationships - Narc/BPD , CoDep/BPD and a lot of the times they are much different than your average NonBPD/BPD. Hell, BPDs can usually elicit codependent/narcissistic responses from anyone - take away the borderline - the issue vanishes.

True Narcissists HAVE to be in control, they need others to be the weaker, lowlier life forms. Codependents HAVE to have others depend on them - its what satisfies their own dependency issues. Both codependents and people with NPD unconsciously sabotage HEALTHY relationships, because they NEED these rolls.

I read the book, The Narcissistic/Borderline couple and for months I was convinced I had horrible Narcissistic issues. It wasn't until my therapist persistently beat it in to me that she knew I wasn't a narcissist and to stop calling myself a narcissist. Enable/Enmeshment can happen to anyone, especially when the traumatic bonding starts kicking in! Borderlines have a way of turning mostly "healthy" (please find me an example of a truly "healthy" person) people into wrecks. Yes, she was able to exploit a lot of my childhood issues to the surface, but I have NEVER had this type of relationship with anyone else. AND, when I am with other people or in other relationships I do not fill the narcissistic role, I am usually the passive one - but my BPDso REQUIRED me to play this roll. It was very foreign to me, and I didn't like it. I wanted nothing more for her to take responsibility for herself into her own hands - I didn't want her unhealthy so I could be the powerful/healthy one or to elicit any sort of dependency out of her.

2010 - Are you referring to him feeling "obligated" to stick around - assuming he REALLY wants this roll? Or, because she has elicited a remorseful response (example: "take responsibility for the heartbreak I caused:) that because he feels overly responsible - which Accidentalnon is extremely ludicrous - that this is "narcissistic."

I am not seeing where he "really believe that you were so wonderful that if you leave her, she might commit suicide?," I think he just is scared that if he does leave, she will go through with her plans of suicide, and who wants that guilt on their shoulders, even if it isn't warranted. (sound familiar to anyone - does here... .)

2010, I too offend a lot of people here, so no skin off your back. Our responses can generally be taken the wrong way, I know you just mean well, and I commend you for your efforts. Keep posting!

[Colombian Chick]

I think 2010 has a few points.

Well, AN- How would you now this since she's still in your life everyday? Seems to me that you're still a couple- you just see the relationship differently than her.

literally spend 3-10 hours a day either talking her down by selling my soul to her, or waiting for the next blow up.

Becuase accidentalnon continues to communicate with her, begging her, and allowing this manipulation. It shows he's still in engaged in the relationship. To him it's over, but to her it continues. Unfortunately it will continue as long as he allows it.

accidentalnon, sweetie, you are not a crisis counselor. The more you communicate the more responsible you feel. From now on reject the calls, emails, and texts. AS SOON as she leaves a message, texts, or emails a suicide threat you will need to take this to the police. You can file a Restraining Order under harrassement.

But to continue enabling her usage of you as the solution to all her problems- reeks of your own Narcissism. The thinking that you have something to do with whether or not someone else may live or die based on your actions is incorrect.  No one is that important to be responsible for someone else taking their life. If you think otherwise, then I suggest you re-think things.

I hate to say it, but she's threatened me with suicide so many times, I almost roll my eyes now when she starts.

This is the part that 2010 is probably thinking about. If you feel she's not going to do it, then why not call 911? Why almost roll your eyes, instead of putting an end to it? You've had chances to call them and end it, but you don't take them. Why? Her reputation is HER resonsability not yours.

[GodofNietzsche]

Calling someone Narcissistic is an insult.  

This isn't a debate on philosophy.  To detach all motion from this situation is impossible.  If he wants to hear about self-actualization, he should read Hegel (or Wilhelm Reich), not come here.

It's called guilt.  To know that you may have played even a small part (though it not be your fault at all) in someone's suicide is more than enough to explain his actions.  I'm not saying he should stay on the path he is on.  But your use of Narcissistic is unfounded.

He wants advice, not an analysis of his psychological make up.


I didn't take this the wrong way.  I'm calling it out for what it is.

[anker]

You want her out of your life. Stop allowing her into it. Cut off all contact and begin reporting any suicide threat messages immediately to 911.

Suicidal threats... .you are NOT helping her by talking to her. You're dragging it out and giving her false hope. I know it doesn't feel that way but its true.

if she threatens suicide emts are trained to deal with that and you are NOT.

I wouldn't warn her either. Just call and play the message for them. if you're not answering the phone I'd bet she leaves a message for you. That way she wl get the REAL help she needs.

Cut it off now. do the right thing even if its hard.

[anker]

That is of course if you want her gone and you are not missng her. To me your continued involvement speaks that you are still involved or wish to be involved... .not that you don't miss her or want her back. You know?

[PotentiallyKevin]

I think you are going way overboard bud... .

Lets wait until we see how accidentalnon perceives this before we go jumping to conclusions... .

Some people like to be given it "point blank" sort of speak. I am one of them. If someone has an opinion of me, PLEASE SHARE, and don't hold back. I try very hard not to get offended... .especially when the intentions are not to offend - which I highly think is the case with 2010.

If being told you sound "Narcissistic" is offensive to you, GoN, I can see how you would think so - especially when the emotions are already running high on this site - we all have a lot of pain regarding our "borderline" experience. No one wants to be further insulted, but in this case, I don't think it was meant insultingly... .

[PotentiallyKevin]

That is of course if you want her gone and you are not missing her. To me your continued involvement speaks that you are still involved or wish to be involved... .not that you don't miss her or want her back. You know?

Not necessarily, i think he explained his reasonings, and they are quite valid.

[Colombian Chick]

Calling someone Narcissistic is an insult.  

To be called a Narcississt IS insulting.

However, I think 2010's statement was his way of trying to help accidentalnon get to HIS own issues of why he continues to allow this. WE have all been there, or still are there. We've all had to reach an understanding of ourselves and our role in this abusive relationship. We've had codependent issues or narcississtic issues for staying. But only through self realization will we be able to understand why. Believe me, we've all had some type of issue and this is why we continue. If we were all 'A OK!', the relationship would of ended on the first  |>. But we continue to stay and we need to answer ourselves, WHY? No one makes us do anything, we choose too. Again, We need to answer the WHY question, not them.

[burdie]

Thank you GON.

My experience is that even manipulators can screw up and kill themselves or at least harm themselves badly. Calling 911 takes you out of the circle. You might tell her at a neutral time that the next time she threatens to harm herself that you will call 911. Then take the above advice, record it and call 911 each and everytime. She may not get tired of it but at least you will not have to make the judgement call to see if it is serious or manipulation. As said before that is not our job. Even if we are trained in the field, we lose our persective when dealing with someone we care about. Call 911.

[Colombian Chick]

Some people like to be given it "point blank" sort of speak. I am one of them. If someone has an opinion of me, PLEASE SHARE, and don't hold back. I try very hard not to get offended... .especially when the intentions are not to offend - which I highly think is the case with 2010.

I'm the exact same way, don't beat around the bush and be straight forward.

[GodofNietzsche]

I'm not your bud, guy.

I see this as a board for support.  He asked for advice and that is what he should get.  If he asked for our opinion on him, then that would be different.

HE DOES NOT WANT TO SEE ANOTHER HUMAN BEING DIE.

That is the point you are missing.  A human life is bigger than your opinion of his psychological issues.  Focus on what matters.

[anker]

He doesn't live her or miss her... .but he allows her to contact him each day att her leisure and vent her emotions

.he seems still enmeshed maybe is the word... .better way to say it. But for her safety and his sanity he needs to be cruel to be kind

[2010]

I have a tendency to grayscale things- so I apologize if the word narcissism is received here on the forum as black and white split into bad. In my opinion, we all have narcissism, hopefully a healthy dose of it. That's different from NPD which is a disorder. We all like to depend on people too- but that doesn't make us co-dependents.

When the scale tips to one direction and weighs in at a downside on these areas- then there's a problem. If you'd rather call narcissism= self-esteem- then let's take the two (dependency and self-esteem) and see what occurs.

I love people, but my self-esteem is regulated on whether or not I can help them. I have realized that I would rather deal with other people's problems than my own. This makes me easily victimized by people who have no desire to get well. In fact, these people need me to continue to be responsible for their problems. Based on my self-esteem need- I'll do whatever it takes to get the job done. This gives me a great satisfaction until I find the one person that doesn't seem to be getting any better. In fact, they're getting worse.

All the help that I give them and they are getting worse!

Now- my self-esteem is in shambles and I'm beginning to wonder if this is good for me. My pay-off hasn't happened with this person. I must be doing something wrong. So I wrack my brain and try to come up with something that works. And this person just keeps working me over-and over-and over-and nothing works to get them to stop threatening to end their life. Now I'm exhausted, guilt-ridden and really worried.

At what point do I say, maybe this is isn't my problem?  And where do I address the guilt in this? Who do I talk to?

I find that the best people to talk to are those that have gone through it themselves... .that's me. and everything you're heard in every 12-step group is correct= Let go and let God. Detach.

You must save yourself first.




2010, thank you for your apology.  I will say that the use of the term "narcisissm" can be very triggering here, no matter how it is used.  It is best to avoid such terminology when talking to a fellow member, no matter how positive your intent.

To everybody participating on this thread, please review this excerpt from our guidelines:

Divisive or Abusive Exchanges: All members should feel safe in their expressions; we are all here to heal from abuse. Please keep in mind that the membership is comprised of diverse experiences and backgrounds; this is a great strength of our community. Debate is healthy discourse when conducted in a respectful, and tolerant manner. Members shall not engage in divisive or abusive exchanges or be judgemental of other members. If a member has divisive or abusive behavior directed toward them, they shall not engage it, but rather try to defuse the situation, or ignore the behavior, or contact a moderator for assistance. Members shall not respond to an abusive exchange in kind. All members should feel safe in their expressions; we are all here to heal from abuse.

... .Jo

[PotentiallyKevin]

I'm not your bud, guy.

I see this as a board for support.  He asked for advice and that is what he should get.  If he asked for our opinion on him, then that would be different.

HE DOES NOT WANT TO SEE ANOTHER HUMAN BEING DIE.

That is the point you are missing.  A human life is bigger than your opinion of his psychological issues.  Focus on what matters.

Ok ok ok, I get your point. Now your getting offended at my use of the term "bud"... .I guess that can be deemed condescending as well, eh? I really don't know why your are getting so worked up over others just trying to help. This is the last post I will comment on this. Enjoy.

[Colombian Chick]

I see this as a board for support.  He asked for advice and that is what he should get.  If he asked for our opinion on him, then that would be different.

Yes you have a point. He's asking for advice and we are all trying our best.

Unfortunately, sometimes advice is not enough. If a woman asks you for advice on which route to take because she's been beatend numerous times going down the same alley. You will give her advice, you will tell her take 3rd and Simi. But then you will question her, why do you continue going down that same alley? You've been beaten SEVERAL times! Why did you continue going down that alley? Why didn't you call 911?

Do you see what we are trying to do here? We are trying to help HIM figure out why HE continues to allow it. If he doesn't figure THAT out, he will continue even if we give him advice. He will continue to feel obligated and will continue contact with her. He will accept the call when she calls him going ape $hit crazy, because he hasn't helped himself first.

[Colombian Chick]

I'm not your bud, guy.

I see this as a board for support.  He asked for advice and that is what he should get.  If he asked for our opinion on him, then that would be different.

HE DOES NOT WANT TO SEE ANOTHER HUMAN BEING DIE.

That is the point you are missing.  A human life is bigger than your opinion of his psychological issues.  Focus on what matters.

Again, HE'S NOT A CRISIS COUNSELOR!

Let the professionals handle her, NOT HIM. No body wants to see another human being die! But, if you see a burning building, will you let the guy with the fireproof suit, steel boots, helmet, gigantic water hose, and years of experience and training go at it first? or will you go in first? There are things we can help in, but there are things that are completely out of our hands. Suicide threats should be dealt by professionals, not him.

[2010]

As a post script: If you are going to stay because of guilt or obligation or any other horrible feeling of dread- please call 911 for any suicide threat.

Go over to her house and watch them arrive or stay home- it’s your choice.

If you choose to say home, what will happen is that a paramedic and perhaps a fire truck will show up at her door. They will take her to the ambulance and strap her in to a gurney, take standard blood pressure, etc. and ask her what medication she is on. Upon admittance, she will be placed in the pscyh room for observation for at least 6 hours and closest relatives will be called.

Since you are not related, you will need to wait until the family members have been contacted first. They are given rights by law to act as proxy. You have not. You may be surprised that some of the family members do not respond.  You will be in the ER, but the info you receive will be spotty because of legalities.

Suicide crisis professionals will ask you and her family about your knowledge of “genuine” attempts. Cutting of wrists or pumping of stomachs, car crashes, carbon monoxide, etc these are all genuine attempts- anything else is a threat. If you cannot think of one incident of “genuine” attempt- you must tell them so.

The response you get will involve *you* speaking with a mental health professional (who is trying to figure out if the threat is real or not) at the local hospital and discussing your relationship timeline on record. What caused the crisis?  

If it was a threat that went too far- they will find out soon enough.

If the hospital is set up for crisis preventative care, they will admit your partner and give you a phone number to speak with a counselor.  The counselor will then separate you from each other for safety reasons. Your partner will be given medication. You’ll be given a phone number to call someone to talk.

You will consider yourself a trigger or cause of the suicide attempt -because that is what you have been led to believe. --The counselor will then discuss your responsibility to yourself and eventually help you see that it’s not your fault.  You are only a trigger.

Given time, both of you will be separated and you will discuss your own feelings on the situation. You will have some deeper issues (notably anger) to deal with… such as, how could someone do this to me? I am a good person and only wanted the best. To:  how could I *allow* a person to do this to me?

Good luck- hope this helps.

(From someone who’s been there and not going back- 2010)

[recovering]

GodofNeitze and ColombianChick - I actually don't think calling someone narcissistic is insulting. I think it's a diagnosis.  Are any of you qualified to diagnose?  Our marraige counselor 10 years ago called my soon-to-be ex hubby (w BPD) narcissistic.  I thought she was "irresponsible" for such a quick diagnosis [ie. denial].  10 years later, my current counselor thinks my ex is BPD with narcissistic traits.  Important to note they are both qualified.  This time I'm a believer.  Most of us are not qualified... .

AccidentalNon - Regarding the threats, suicide etc, I agree that speed dial 911 is the trick.  And no contact as much as possible.  Why are you responsible?  Do what is socially required (ie. report her to the authorities) and disengage. Completely.  Someone else's problem.

I think the bigger question is why you continue in this relationship.  That's the question I have had to ask myself, why continue with a manipulative person who is sick. Broken.  With little hope of recovery. 

I have hope for me and my kids.  Not for him.  So I need to disentangle, disengage, remove MYSELF from the abuse and address my own issues from allowing myself to be involved for such a long time.

That might work for you?

[francienolan]

"Narcissism" is not a pejorative term. From what I understand (I'm in grad school and by no means a professional), narcissism exists along a continuum with "too much" on one end and "not enough" on the other. At either extreme, you have your garden-variety personality disorders with NPD being on the "too much" end. Some say BPD actually falls on the other end. A mentally healthy person should fall somewhere in the middle. Healthy narcissism sort of acts as your emotional immune system--it allows you to function in the world while safeguarding you from external threats.

With that being said, Accidental Non, the next time your ex threatens suicide, tell her you are going to hang up and call 911 and make good on your word. She needs professional help. Let her go. 

[hiddenlizard]

Narcissism? I am almost laughing. Almost. Same with "Co-Dependency". I think one of the reasons we end up with these BPDs is because we have traits of humanity they lack. Is that narcissistic and/or codependent or is it having a heart that may be a little bigger than some?

Yes, someone threatening suicide needs to be referred to a professional. But do we need to start labeling ourselves simply because we care about what happens to another human being? Haven't we been harmed enough? I think what francienolan has said is a wonderful way to look at it but I think I see it as a circle rather than a line.

[turtlesoup]

Narcissism? I am almost laughing. Almost. Same with "Co-Dependency". I think one of the reasons we end up with these BPDs is because we have traits of humanity they lack. Is that narcissistic and/or codependent or is it having a heart that may be a little bigger than some?

Absolutely, at the end of our relationship, we were rowing about her emotional infidelity and in the middle of this row she says to me "you haven't said 1 nice thing to me all day"!

Sometimes I write these things down and just get that sense of being gobsmacked again. Who says nice things to people who they've found cheating on them! They come to expect our good hearts to shine through, for us to offer love and compassion in the face of anything they do. They are children! They are expecting or wanting us to offer a kind of unconditional love that perhaps a parent may.

I think you're right, its exactly our big hearts and ability for compassion and belief in fairness that has been "played".