About co-dependency

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

This started as an answer to one of your threads, but since I was going to write the same thing in my thread, I decided to post this as an own thread.

Hi Turtlesoup, Well, let's face it: most of us Nons are codependent to some extent; otherwise, we wouldn't be in a relationship with a BPD partner.

I was thinking this same very thing the other day while I was on my car driving thinking about this forum. "OK... .but if I am codependent... .that would mean that a person who is taking care of his BPD abuser is codependent too." In the end, I think the L3 is full of codependents.  And I am not talking about the DSMIV codependency issue, just the typical classical "caretaker type." Heck, the "improving the relationship with BPD" section of this site basically reinforces you into how to be an even better caretaker. It sure taught me great things, but some of those skills reinforced my codependency.


Turtlesoup; I'm a bit worried about you. Each time I come to this forum, you have doubled your posts. Literally; from 50 to 150, to 300 to 600. This might be counter intuitive, but after I absorbed lots of things that I needed to absorb from bpdfamily.com, I actually realized that hanging around TOO much in these forums made me relive horrible experiences that needs to be dealt in other way, also, I was obsessing about BPD and what not. So, I decided to come and say hi to you guys one time or another, but not getting as involved, because hours would fly when I was browsing bpdfamily.com and sometimes it made me sick thinking about this all the time. Just an advice in case you feel the same way I felt (and I think you do, since you brought up some codependency issues in your posts)


On topic: I realized that I am codependent and have always been, not the DSMIV personality disorder, but the emotional caretaker with low self esteem that value other persons opinion more than mine and do all kind of things for other persons to help them and feel valuable and worthy because that's the only way I can feel good about myself, that I am also over-sensible to rejection and when persons don't appreciate all the things I do for them, and that I also know how to solve everyone else's problem (oh, so true!) but can't resolve mine, and somehow, via osmosis, I expect that someone shows up to solve my problems the way I tend to do with other people, but then I realized that it's not going to happen; and even when it's about to happen, I feel guilty and ashamed when someone is trying to help me and over-appreciate every little thing people actually do for me.  (Wow, I think I covered a lot about most codependency issues in this paragraph.)


And, of course, and this is the exact reason this forum exist; IF the person I love and wants to take care of (i.e. BPDgf) is needy, clingy and sick, but also ABUSE me in ways I cannot even understand, then I suddenly realized that my "altruistic" self is ALL wrong, that I have a label, and that label is called codependent, all because I can't seem to detach from utter emotional destruction, because I feel ashamed, I am tolerating too much abuse, more than anyone really would, and all I seem to be doing is pleasing that person way more than she deserves expecting the abuse to stop if I am overly nice; and, IN a freaky way, I have such a distortion of my sense of self that deep inside maybe I think I even deserved being abused like that and that all I did was nothing, and even more so I think my actions are worthless if I have my BPDso screaming at my ear how worthless I am and how little I have done and that the things I do are ___.

Here are reasons, red flags and the way I have though and analyzed everything that went trough with Momo (my BPDxso):

• I am in an obviously unhealthy relationship where I am receiving nothing but pain.



• I give my absolute all, and more, even if they don't ask for it. (In their case, they ask for a lot, which also makes us feel good)



• I know, for a fact (not emotionally) the other person have nothing to give



• but somehow, emotionally, I stupidly expects everything changes for the best



• somehow suddenly I expect that salvation will come, that my partner will understand my suffering, all my pain, and appreciate all I have done for him/her; in a way, I will become a martyr and be praised for that.



• but it never happens. It never happened. And all I am left is wondering what went wrong.

So, we are eating dust. At the sidewalk. Trampled all over. Emotionally raped and murdered, wondering "WHAT the HELL did I do wrong; what went wrong?" Obviously, we know for a fact that our abuser is the ONE who is wrong, that they didn't gave to us even minimal human treatment or respect. But that answer seem incomplete. Because we also feel that something must be wrong with US nons to stand all the pain and suffering we went through. We know LOTS of persons that don't stand abuse from others; and our friends tell us that our relationships are just insane! Hell, maybe we in the past didn't stand abuse from others and told them to get a hike. And yet this is the question who haunt us to the very core, every day; what WE did wrong in this relationship? We victimize ourselves, we think we are the victims, (of course we are, because we endured abuse beyond reason) and develop all kinds of traumas... .But then, when we start making an honest inventory of ourselves, the answer we expected for days, weeks, months or even years, arrives. And it ain't pretty.

What the Hell did I do wrong? The answer? Being TOO good was what you did wrong, because you were being good because you have other issues you have to work-out, aptly named, codependency. Who would have thought that being good and show devotion to the people YOU LOVE and want them to LOVE YOU could be problematic, even if you did it because you wanted to feel worthy of love and devotion from others and have low self esteem?

For me, having that valuable bit of information I just wrote and accepting I am (or was) like that; accepting that it is deeply rooted under my skin because my upbringing was a breeding ground for that codependency to develop, that I am a responsible person and have no other addictions or misconduct, but in reality, I am addicted (not to drugs, sex and alcohol) but to approval and love of the other persons, specially the ones I love or want them to love me; that helped me understand all my guilt and fears, the so called infamous FOG and also helped me dealing with all this, because I am not alone, there is people like me.

To me, this was like a 1000 pieces jigsaw based on a completely green forest that I had to put together and solve. But now I can say that I know where I stand; I can really distinguish all the trees in that forest, even if they are the same color and shape.

[Koro]

This started as an answer to one of your threads, but since I was going to write the same thing in my thread, I decided to post this as an own thread.

Hi Turtlesoup, Well, let's face it: most of us Nons are codependent to some extent; otherwise, we wouldn't be in a relationship with a BPD partner.

I was thinking this same very thing the other day while I was on my car driving thinking about this forum. "OK... .but if I am codependent... .that would mean that a person who is taking care of his BPD abuser is codependent too." In the end, I think the L3 is full of codependents.  And I am not talking about the DSMIV codependency issue, just the typical classical "caretaker type." Heck, the "improving the relationship with BPD" section of this site basically reinforces you into how to be an even better caretaker. It sure taught me great things, but some of those skills reinforced my codependency.


Turtlesoup; I'm a bit worried about you. Each time I come to this forum, you have doubled your posts. Literally; from 50 to 150, to 300 to 600. This might be counter intuitive, but after I absorbed lots of things that I needed to absorb from bpdfamily.com, I actually realized that hanging around TOO much in these forums made me relive horrible experiences that needs to be dealt in other way, also, I was obsessing about BPD and what not. So, I decided to come and say hi to you guys one time or another, but not getting as involved, because hours would fly when I was browsing bpdfamily.com and sometimes it made me sick thinking about this all the time. Just an advice in case you feel the same way I felt (and I think you do, since you brought up some codependency issues in your posts)


On topic: I realized that I am codependent and have always been, not the DSMIV personality disorder, but the emotional caretaker with low self esteem that value other persons opinion more than mine and do all kind of things for other persons to help them and feel valuable and worthy because that's the only way I can feel good about myself, that I am also over-sensible to rejection and when persons don't appreciate all the things I do for them, and that I also know how to solve everyone else's problem (oh, so true!) but can't resolve mine, and somehow, via osmosis, I expect that someone shows up to solve my problems the way I tend to do with other people, but then I realized that it's not going to happen; and even when it's about to happen, I feel guilty and ashamed when someone is trying to help me and over-appreciate every little thing people actually do for me.  (Wow, I think I covered a lot about most codependency issues in this paragraph.)


And, of course, and this is the exact reason this forum exist; IF the person I love and wants to take care of (i.e. BPDgf) is needy, clingy and sick, but also ABUSE me in ways I cannot even understand, then I suddenly realized that my "altruistic" self is ALL wrong, that I have a label, and that label is called codependent, all because I can't seem to detach from utter emotional destruction, because I feel ashamed, I am tolerating too much abuse, more than anyone really would, and all I seem to be doing is pleasing that person way more than she deserves expecting the abuse to stop if I am overly nice; and, IN a freaky way, I have such a distortion of my sense of self that deep inside maybe I think I even deserved being abused like that and that all I did was nothing, and even more so I think my actions are worthless if I have my BPDso screaming at my ear how worthless I am and how little I have done and that the things I do are ___.

Here are reasons, red flags and the way I have though and analyzed everything that went trough with Momo (my BPDxso):

• I am in an obviously unhealthy relationship where I am receiving nothing but pain.



• I give my absolute all, and more, even if they don't ask for it. (In their case, they ask for a lot, which also makes us feel good)



• I know, for a fact (not emotionally) the other person have nothing to give



• but somehow, emotionally, I stupidly expects everything changes for the best



• somehow suddenly I expect that salvation will come, that my partner will understand my suffering, all my pain, and appreciate all I have done for him/her; in a way, I will become a martyr and be praised for that.



• but it never happens. It never happened. And all I am left is wondering what went wrong.

So, we are eating dust. At the sidewalk. Trampled all over. Emotionally raped and murdered, wondering "WHAT the HELL did I do wrong; what went wrong?" Obviously, we know for a fact that our abuser is the ONE who is wrong, that they didn't gave to us even minimal human treatment or respect. But that answer seem incomplete. Because we also feel that something must be wrong with US nons to stand all the pain and suffering we went through. We know LOTS of persons that don't stand abuse from others; and our friends tell us that our relationships are just insane! Hell, maybe we in the past didn't stand abuse from others and told them to get a hike. And yet this is the question who haunt us to the very core, every day; what WE did wrong in this relationship? We victimize ourselves, we think we are the victims, (of course we are, because we endured abuse beyond reason) and develop all kinds of traumas... .But then, when we start making an honest inventory of ourselves, the answer we expected for days, weeks, months or even years, arrives. And it ain't pretty.

What the Hell did I do wrong? The answer? Being TOO good was what you did wrong, because you were being good because you have other issues you have to work-out, aptly named, codependency. Who would have thought that being good and show devotion to the people YOU LOVE and want them to LOVE YOU could be problematic, even if you did it because you wanted to feel worthy of love and devotion from others and have low self esteem?

For me, having that valuable bit of information I just wrote and accepting I am (or was) like that; accepting that it is deeply rooted under my skin because my upbringing was a breeding ground for that codependency to develop, that I am a responsible person and have no other addictions or misconduct, but in reality, I am addicted (not to drugs, sex and alcohol) but to approval and love of the other persons, specially the ones I love or want them to love me; that helped me understand all my guilt and fears, the so called infamous FOG and also helped me dealing with all this, because I am not alone, there is people like me.

To me, this was like a 1000 pieces jigsaw based on a completely green forest that I had to put together and solve. But now I can say that I know where I stand; I can really distinguish all the trees in that forest, even if they are the same color and shape.

[Koro]

On another note: Codependency, not the personality disorder, is not really a "problem." It CAN be a problem if you have low self esteem, if you are looking for approving and if the only moments you feel great and worthy is when helping others; obviously, it is a greater problem when a domestic violence relationship develops (being the typical damsel in distress that wants to help her sorry, drunkAss wifebeater of a husband, or the atypical oversensible guy that dream of perfect love but in reality we don't love ourselves and expect others to do so, and found ourselves intoxicated by the dynamics of a BPD woman.)

But in reality, those are ideas of perfect love; that we feel empty and wants someone to complete us (a very flawed reasoning some of us codependents have to work out).  But taking care for the ones you love and doing whatever you have to do to please them and keep them safe, is only codependency if you have low self esteem and all the other things I mentioned earlier in this post. In reality, that's being sacrificed, loving and caring; even if sometimes we do it for the wrong reasons. WE HAVE THE RIGHT to be WRONG; we can't be that hard with ourselves; even if I am not completely emotionally convinced of that as I type this, this is objectively 100% true.

So, in the end, as lots of people say, it's just, again, a matter of time and finding someone else, in the future who makes us happy. But it is far more complicated than that. We should be making a personal inventory for ourselves. We have to understand that a romantic relationship and constantly obsessing about ideal love, even though it might be an important part of our life, in reality is NOT THAT important, that there are lots of other things going on in our lives, our society and the world, that, well, is more like a great plus than a NEED. We were born in a society that permits us develop interpersonal relationships the way we always discuss over here and let us die from things like cancer. Most societies in this world don't have these "commodities."

Once we rewire our thinking, our perception about ourselves and our perception about GOALS in LIFE, we won't be really looking for a partner or thinking it is a need. But when we do, or when someone else appears in our life, we just have to be clear that what WE need is someone who is AS loving and AS caring as us; who know how to love the way we are capable of loving. 

And maybe then, we can be "really" happy. But happiness is another commodity. And not everyone in life gets what they want, the way they want. Sad, but true.

[turtlesoup]

Hey Shiro

Yes I know I have been a total codependent, I readily admit it and Im in therapy every week. I work from home, I have a lot of net time so I suppose my post count is large, and at one time I certainly was obsessing about my BPDex, Im not sure that is true anymore.

I read what you wrote but what are you trying to tell me? You are worried for me why?

[Koro]

Hey Shiro

Yes I know I have been a total codependent, I readily admit it and Im in therapy every week. I work from home, I have a lot of net time so I suppose my post count is large, and at one time I certainly was obsessing about my BPDex, Im not sure that is true anymore.

I read what you wrote but what are you trying to tell me? You are worried for me why?

The post was really about me and I thought maybe you and others could relate. And I was a bit worried for what I told you, your post count and thinking you might be obsessing with bpdfamily.com.

[2010]

I read what you wrote but what are you trying to tell me? You are worried for me why?

Since we are in a forum- it's necessary to allow ourselves and others the ability to free think and post as often as they want- Sometimes projection of what we are feeling onto others is a form of coping with the information we receive about ourselves.

It's necessary to understand that although this makes us feel better when we project things- it can be a bad habit to get into - because the person we project onto may not be thinking or doing that that we project onto them and become put-off.  Be aware that this is a common problem in group therapy- and one that causes misunderstandings. We may look like we are all in the same boat- but people process things at different time spans.

From Wiki: "In classical psychology, projection is always seen as a defense mechanism that occurs when a person's own unacceptable or threatening feelings are repressed and then attributed to someone else.

An example of this behavior might be blaming another for self failure. The mind may avoid the discomfort of consciously admitting personal faults by keeping those feelings unconscious, and redirect their libidinal satisfaction by attaching, or "projecting," those same faults onto another.

Projection reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the unwanted unconscious impulses or desires without letting the conscious mind recognize them."

Shiro wrote:

the only moments you feel great and worthy is when helping others... .I am a responsible person and have no other addictions or misconduct, but in reality, I am addicted (not to drugs, sex and alcohol) but to approval and love of the other persons

So, there's your work right there... .only you can settle it inside your head.

One of the best things about this site is the absence of labeling people as co-dependent- because people get hung up on that term. If it's helpful to let go of that-please do. There's nothing worse than toxic shame.  What needs to be addressed is how you came to feel a sense of worthiness by giving up your own true need by focusing on the needs of others. The person that really needs attention here is ourselves-

They say in therapy that most people come in pointing fingers and it's up to the therapist to help turn the finger inward and point at your own chest.

[turtlesoup]

Hey Shiro

Yes I know I have been a total codependent, I readily admit it and Im in therapy every week. I work from home, I have a lot of net time so I suppose my post count is large, and at one time I certainly was obsessing about my BPDex, Im not sure that is true anymore.

I read what you wrote but what are you trying to tell me? You are worried for me why?

The post was really about me and I thought maybe you and others could relate. And I was a bit worried for what I told you, your post count and thinking you might be obsessing with bpdfamily.com.

I do use this site, read a lot, reply a lot and I find it helps me however over the last week my use of this place has gone down but it really helps me being here, it helps me stay non contact, it reinforces things in my mind, maybe it is a bit of a crutch for me right now, but with pulling the plug and going NC, also not having friends and family to talk to, its my only real outlet for my feelings.

I appreiciate you saying that you are worried, and perhaps if I'd been here for 6 months posting and posting it would be a fair evaluation.

I am also a ridiculously fast typer and thinker, what may take an average person 5 minutes to write out will take me 30 seconds. In time, actual time, I probably spend a total of an hour here a day, log off do other things, watch tv etc. Thanks for the concern, but I really am ok 

[2010]

We know! 

[sarah1234]

Shiro basically described me in most of that post. I am stuck on the low self esteem part. ExuBPDbf is not ruling my life, my crap low self esteem is.

I utterly relate to what you have written, thank you.

[juner]

Hey turtle, I haven't taken the time to actually count your posts, but seems to me you've zoomed way ahead in a short time in getting a handle on things. The way you approached this particular subject offers yet another lesson to many in being gracious.

[2010]

Shiro basically described me in most of that post. I am stuck on the low self esteem part. ExuBPDbf is not ruling my life, my crap low self esteem is.

Sarah, Have you read Christine Lawson's book, Understanding the Borderline Mother? It helped me to understand so much about myself.

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?PHPSESSID=2a468e156731d65365cd255332d1acaf&topic=61982.0

[sarah1234]

I have never read that book, I have read that post before though, thanks

I posted in the building a new life section about how I am struggling with it. My low self esteem leads me to behave badly when I choose to step into situations where I lose control, such as being drunk or feeling vulnerable. I make silly choices and always regret them. I know all the reasons why I do them, but I can never seem to find the strength or reasoning to stop. I am actually very happy being single, not lonely and now have actively chosen not to have a relationship with anyone for the time being. Yet I keep having one night stands because I find myself drawn to them as I get the overwhelming urge for love, attention, affection and a self esteem boost. Of course, I always feel a million times worse afterwards, so its destructive

[Koro]

I read what you wrote but what are you trying to tell me? You are worried for me why?

Since we are in a forum- it's necessary to allow ourselves and others the ability to free think and post as often as they want- Sometimes projection of what we are feeling onto others is a form of coping with the information we receive about ourselves.

It's necessary to understand that although this makes us feel better when we project things- it can be a bad habit to get into - because the person we project onto may not be thinking or doing that that we project onto them and become put-off.  Be aware that this is a common problem in group therapy- and one that causes misunderstandings. We may look like we are all in the same boat- but people process things at different time spans.

From Wiki: "In classical psychology, projection is always seen as a defense mechanism that occurs when a person's own unacceptable or threatening feelings are repressed and then attributed to someone else.

An example of this behavior might be blaming another for self failure. The mind may avoid the discomfort of consciously admitting personal faults by keeping those feelings unconscious, and redirect their libidinal satisfaction by attaching, or "projecting," those same faults onto another.

Projection reduces anxiety by allowing the expression of the unwanted unconscious impulses or desires without letting the conscious mind recognize them."

Shiro wrote:

the only moments you feel great and worthy is when helping others... .I am a responsible person and have no other addictions or misconduct, but in reality, I am addicted (not to drugs, sex and alcohol) but to approval and love of the other persons

So, there's your work right there... .only you can settle it inside your head.

One of the best things about this site is the absence of labeling people as co-dependent- because people get hung up on that term. If it's helpful to let go of that-please do. There's nothing worse than toxic shame.  What needs to be addressed is how you came to feel a sense of worthiness by giving up your own true need by focusing on the needs of others. The person that really needs attention here is ourselves-

They say in therapy that most people come in pointing fingers and it's up to the therapist to help turn the finger inward and point at your own chest.

I wasn't really pointing fingers... .I was just trying to help and I wrote this cause I thought maybe him and other persons could relate. Somehow this was interpreted as me flaming Turtlesoup; and that was not certainly the case. I am not labeling him as codependent; he said so himself in OTHER post and that's why I posted this because I felt the same and thought he could relate to my situation. I had good intentions, and I thought that was clear from the beginning. Apparently not.

[Koro]

Shiro basically described me in most of that post. I am stuck on the low self esteem part. ExuBPDbf is not ruling my life, my crap low self esteem is.

I utterly relate to what you have written, thank you.

Even though our situations are quite different, I'm glad you related. My "addiction" and the fake self esteem boost I get from it are ruling my life too; I can't seem to enjoy life anymore and I find myself unhappy no matter what.

[turtlesoup]

Hey Shiro

Well thanks for posting it, it was an interesting read certainly and yes, I do admit freely to being a codependent Most of the article resonates with me

[VanessaG]

Shiro, I do get what you are saying, I think.

Some of my not-so-great days are the ones where I spend a lot of time here, posting and reading, and some days I think it actually serves to prolong my rumination about my BPDex.  Do I need the board?  Heck yes!  Is there a fine line between getting some validation of why I'm NC and beating a dead horse in my own mind?  Also yes.

On the days where I am doing best, busy and engaged and not thinking of him at all, I'm not here.

True for me, maybe not so true for others.  <shoulder shrug>

VanessaG

[Chazz]

I think codependency is a "relative disease" times two, because:

1. It typically stems from childhood issues with relatives. 

2. It doesn't necessarily show up in every relationship (it doesn't for me). Hence it's relative to certain relationships that trigger me in specific ways. In this respect, it's an episodic disorder like an addiction rather than a disease that follows a  predictable course.


I have had similar thoughts and agree with Shiro here: "Heck, the "improving the relationship with BPD" section of this site basically reinforces you into how to be an even better caretaker. It sure taught me great things, but some of those skills reinforced my codependency."

FOR ME, managing my relationship with my BPD partner is not an option. That would feel like a form of enabling. The only way I can stay in the relationship is if she is actively and consistently working on her issues. (Which she is at this point.) In the absence of that, I am without hope. Again, this feels like an addiction issue. I can work with a person in recovery, but not an active substance abuser. A rare relapse is tolerable; chronic relapse is not.

I don't know what I would think or feel if I had a child with BPD, so I can't speak to that. Adult relationships are different, including a relationship with a BPD child. Adult relationships should not be care-taking relationships except within certain medical circumstances. What I do know is that the only thing that saved my sanity in my adult relationship with my BPD mother was to separate and have little or no contact with her.

I know I have adult child of a BPD issues. The only way I can manage myself in an adult relationship with a BPD, is to have the issues out in the open and on the table, and to have them actively and aggressively worked on in the relationship by both parties. To do otherwise, is to live in a world of hurt - who needs it?         

 

[BrienBear]

I think codependency is a "relative disease" times two, because:

1. It typically stems from childhood issues with relatives. 

2. It doesn't necessarily show up in every relationship (it doesn't for me). Hence it's relative to certain relationships that trigger me in specific ways. In this respect, it's an episodic disorder like an addiction rather than a disease that follows a  predictable course.


I have had similar thoughts and agree with Shiro here: "Heck, the "improving the relationship with BPD" section of this site basically reinforces you into how to be an even better caretaker. It sure taught me great things, but some of those skills reinforced my codependency."

FOR ME, managing my relationship with my BPD partner is not an option. That would feel like a form of enabling. The only way I can stay in the relationship is if she is actively and consistently working on her issues. (Which she is at this point.) In the absence of that, I am without hope. Again, this feels like an addiction issue. I can work with a person in recovery, but not an active substance abuser. A rare relapse is tolerable; chronic relapse is not.

I don't know what I would think or feel if I had a child with BPD, so I can't speak to that. Adult relationships are different, including a relationship with a BPD child. Adult relationships should not be care-taking relationships except within certain medical circumstances. What I do know is that the only thing that saved my sanity in my adult relationship with my BPD mother was to separate and have little or no contact with her.

I know I have adult child of a BPD issues. The only way I can manage myself in an adult relationship with a BPD, is to have the issues out in the open and on the table, and to have them actively and aggressively worked on in the relationship by both parties. To do otherwise, is to live in a world of hurt - who needs it?         

 

I'm in complete agreeance here. Everything you've said, literally.

I've been told, even had someone quote me, then take my quote line for line on this board and use that to explain why I am codependent. I actually showed the post to my T who was like "Are they on crack... .? Are they projecting... .?" Codependence gets thrown around a lot on this board and I'm not entirely sure its accurate. The theory behind codependence is that you take care of someone and ignore your needs. If I did take care of my exBPD, (and I did) I didn't ignore my needs. I was very good about getting myself out and getting what I needed from my friends, family, etc. I dont have a lot of "needs" in the first place. Just lots of social interaction. And I took that whenever I wanted. My 2 cents

[Nutts45]

Heck, the "improving the relationship with BPD" section of this site basically reinforces you into how to be an even better caretaker. It sure taught me great things, but some of those skills reinforced my codependency. (Sorry still have problems getting quotes in.)

I had some problems with this to... .some of the validation I tried to do... .and as my T said... if it makes you feel co-dependent don't do it, just disengage.

Went through co-dependenency issue when I dissolved my first marriage.

You guess your husband feelings... well your either wrong or right...  

Co-dependent -  His feelings are more important than yours.  His feelings are about you.  His feelings reflect how you feel.

Not Co-dependent - You understand his feelings.  They are not a reflection of you.  You can separate your self from the way he feels.

Your husband had diarrhea of the mouth.  Let's say because you have plans.

Co-dependant - You change your plans. You worry about what he is thinking...

Not co-dependent - You understand his feelings.  You were looking forward to whatever and you still proceed with your plans.

Co-dependency is when you are doing things because of the enmeshment in your relationship.  You are no longer taking care of yourself and the motivation behind what you are doing is directed by another.

The tools here actually create self - independence by reinforcing boundary's, understanding, validation... .well this is a good thing by itself.  They way people post is only a reflection of a circumstance.  It is very hard to post... that I respond to this thru a healthy place... not just solely on his needs.

Co-dependent - Independent    :)id you know about the other... Interdependent.

[VanessaG]

Chazz, what you wrote rings true to me and what I've read about co-dependency, and what FEELS right about it to me.

One other thing I'll add.

I think that fairly healthy people get stuck in relationships with BPDs, sort of by accident.  They get drawn in and infatuated and fall in love during the stage they are painted white, and then as the other characteristics start emerging, they start thinking, WTH is going on here?, and begin either distancing themselves, or trying to make sense of it, all in order to make it better.

They sort of get conned into co-dependence without it being their primary personality.

(I find that I've only been even remotely co-dependent in my relationship with the BPDp in my life, and my husband, who also seems to exhibit a PD of some sort.  And I feel it's been kicking and screaming the whole way.)

At some point, these pretty healthy people end up here, or in some way saying, okay, no way, enough, this person is NOT good for me.  I cannot have a healthy relationship with this person.

I think someone who is co-dependent, to some degree, thrives in (not the best choice of words, perhaps) or seeks out a relationship with someone with whom they are the care-taker/enabler because it is, in their nature, to NEED to take care of someone to feel validated, it makes them feel somewhat SUPERIOR to have someone unhealthy to engage with, and it allows them to IDENTIFY themselves as long-suffering and a giver and a martyr to some degree.  It also allows them to have RESENTMENT for the person they're care-taking and enabling, because that person just won't "get with the program" or do as they say, so, sigh, poor co-dependent me, I must continue to suffer and take care of them because that is my burden, etc.  

It all falls back to that victim-persecutor-rescuer dynamic which is mentioned here a great deal.

Obviously, we all fell prey to some co-dependent traits here and there, or we'd have seen that first  |> or the second  |> and run for ze hills.

VanessaG

PS.  Turtlesoup, I wanted to add to my previous comment that I love your posts, and your unabashed humor, and if it were for my own selfish reading pleasure, I'd hope that you were attached in an umbilical cord sort of way to the bpdfamily.com boards on a daily basis!  

[Koro]

Shiro, I do get what you are saying, I think.

Some of my not-so-great days are the ones where I spend a lot of time here, posting and reading, and some days I think it actually serves to prolong my rumination about my BPDex.  :)o I need the board?  Heck yes!  Is there a fine line between getting some validation of why I'm NC and beating a dead horse in my own mind?  Also yes.

On the days where I am doing best, busy and engaged and not thinking of him at all, I'm not here.

True for me, maybe not so true for others.

Tnx. This was my point exactly.

I think codependency is a "relative disease" times two, because:

1. It typically stems from childhood issues with relatives. 

2. It doesn't necessarily show up in every relationship (it doesn't for me). Hence it's relative to certain relationships that trigger me in specific ways. In this respect, it's an episodic disorder like an addiction rather than a disease that follows a  predictable course.

I agree with this completely. When a relationship becomes a really big issue and you just keep on coming for more, is when everything is clear that you are addicted to a person or a relationship is really wrong.

I have had similar thoughts and agree with Shiro here: "Heck, the "improving the relationship with BPD" section of this site basically reinforces you into how to be an even better caretaker. It sure taught me great things, but some of those skills reinforced my codependency."

My post is long and I made some important points, that somehow got lost between the lenghty post. This was one of them. I respect everyone that is staying with their BPDso and trying to fix the relationship; I really tried hard but to not abide. I also stayed for quite some time. But the skills that section teach can really reinforce a codependent into even feel ashamed for not being the correct "BPD caretaker" since the beginning and pressure him into doing so.

Again, that section is great and teaches us some great tools, but it can reinforce a codependent person. You can be dialectic and say it teaches you to be independent and validating and enforce boundaries. But being validating, the very fact of you having to enforce a boundary other than leaving the relationship, and that you should be basically caretaking another adult, so the relationship can go a little bit smoothly, are tools that can reinforce codependence; and that WAS MY CASE. Because a codependent person wants to be perfect to their significant other, no matter what, the reality is that the codependent should deal their issues first before even attempting a relationship and that's why those otherwise good tools can be misused.

FOR ME, managing my relationship with my BPD partner is not an option. That would feel like a form of enabling. The only way I can stay in the relationship is if she is actively and consistently working on her issues. (Which she is at this point.) In the absence of that, I am without hope. Again, this feels like an addiction issue. I can work with a person in recovery, but not an active substance abuser. A rare relapse is tolerable; chronic relapse is not. I know I have adult child of a BPD issues. The only way I can manage myself in an adult relationship with a BPD, is to have the issues out in the open and on the table, and to have them actively and aggressively worked on in the relationship by both parties. To do otherwise, is to live in a world of hurt - who needs it?          

I actually tried that but it didn't work out because I also have issues to bring to the table (codependence, traumas for things that she have done in our past, etc) and when she relapsed, it was in a very hurtful, invalidating and painful way (saying that she never loved me, saying that she never liked me as a person, saying that the relationship was fake and that she wanted to get out of it and, of course, going out with her ex to have drinks and ultimately have sex with him, etc.).

[VanessaG]

Time for more true confessions ... .

So as background, when I found bpdfamily.com, I had been NC for a couple of months with a man with whom I'd had an emotional affair, and was struggling big-time with whether or not to leave my husband, who had finally gotten help for his own mental health issues (from my reading, he's an avoidant/NPD, very socially isolated, no demonstration of empathy, major issues with anger).

I was in a whirl.  Suddenly I "discovered" what had been going on with the man with whom I'd had an emotional affair -- it was BPD.  Textbook, classic case.  All of a sudden, it made sense, or he made sense, if you looked at him through the eyes of someone who was now aware of the disorder.  I hungrily read all that I had in common with other people here.

I already knew, to some degree, what was going on with my husband, but in that week when I found bpdfamily.com, I was like a slightly-crazed person, reading and reading and evaluating, and rehashing, and not about just ONE man, but about TWO men.  I actually went to the library and combed through DSM-IV.

I was validated about the BPDex, and then got caught up in the Staying Board, trying to learn validation techniques so I could "help" or "not trigger" my PD husband.  I actually practiced them, in my head, trying to think of scenarios and what would be the "perfect" thing to say.  The right tone, the right phrase, the right moment.

It was as close as I've ever come to a panic attack.

I actually called my T for an emergency appointment, talking a million miles per hour about what I'd discovered, how I just knew that I was a lousy validator and how much it pissed me off to have to do all that validating anyway and was I going to resent doing it, blahblahblah.

It was another dealing-with-PD-head-in-blender moment.  A truly co-dependent moment for me.

My T calmly waited until I completed my tirade and then simply asked me what made me think that I had any responsibility for trying to "fix" anything?

It's been a mantra for me since, and one that is oft-repeated here. 

I didn't create it, I can't fix it.  A more succinct version of the Serenity Prayer, really.

I remind myself regularly of what are HIS issues, what are MINE, and police myself in trying to take on those which are HIS.

Oddly enough, it's working.  My husband is doing better than he has in years.  I am doing better.  Most days.  The BPDman is gone and while I often pray a silent little prayer that he is doing okay, I know he is someone I can never have in my life.

Sometimes life hands you lemons for the sole purpose of making sure you have the tools to make lemonade.

VanessaG

[Nutts45]

(Sorry still... still... can get the quote to work) "I was validated about the BPDex, and then got caught up in the Staying Board, trying to learn validation techniques so I could "help" or "not trigger" my PD husband.  I actually practiced them, in my head, trying to think of scenarios and what would be the "perfect" thing to say.  The right tone, the right phrase, the right moment."

Co-dependent - Fixing your SO (perfect) / Healthy - Tools to create a more balanced life together (hit and miss).

And again... validation techniques we can all use them in every aspect of our lives.

[VanessaG]

Co-dependent - Fixing your SO (perfect) / Healthy - Tools to create a more balanced life together (hit and miss).

And again... validation techniques we can all use them in every aspect of our lives.

Indeed, dsnutt, it wasn't the tool of validation, it was the intent with which I was planning to use it.  It was my mindset.  It was MY stuff creeping into dealing with HIS stuff.

But damned sure seems like it would be easy to slide down the slippery slope of healthy tool to if-only-I-had-validated-better-he-wouldn't-have-raged.

And that is what I mean about the "fine line."

VanessaG

[Nutts45]

Once told a friend... we all walk a fine line sooner or later.  Its called life.  Some times you can walk it, sometimes we have to hold our arms out for balance, than others well... ya fall.

I actually during my first reading caught some (sorry problems w/names) ones post on validating being a hit and miss and they didn't like missing.  Well have I tried some... I feel the same way.  I can not assume what emotion my H is going thru... that felt co-dependent to me.  So I use what makes me feel healthy and validate only when it is natural to me. 

And I guess I already knew before I came to the board... if only I would have done this... could end up a no-win... and in H's mind I could walk the line anyway there was... and I would still not be walking right.

[DAS]

 I'm... .tricky.

I like helping people - not because I need their approval in order to like myself. I like myself plenty. I like helping people because it makes me feel EVEN BETTER.

When I hold the door open for someone who has their hands full, when I pick up something they've dropped, when I give directions, when I comfort someone who is down, when I get a little gift for someone I'm romantically attached to, when I share the joys of physical intimacy... .All these things - obviously varying degrees - just make me feel... .better.

I don't treat others the way I want to treated in expectation that it will be returned. I treat them well because that is how I want to treat them. I know it wouldn't be returned. I can not influence or control the way that others choose to interact with me. I can only control myself.

I stayed with my pwBPD not because of low self-esteem or because I "needed" to "save" her. Well, I did need to. She would have killed herself if it wasn't for me intervening in her life when I did. I didn't want that at the time. I wanted to give her a platform to possibly restabilize her life from its downward spiril. I thought I saw good in her. So I withstood the rages, the inconsistencies, the lies because at the end of the day, she was still providing a lot of what I needed : someone to be romantic towards and possibly intimate with. There was always a return to affection - kind of like a rainbow after the storm.

It is only when that stopped. When the affection didn't return. That I had to consider ending it. The pictures of a new guy in my bed while I was away, confirming that she had abandoned me... .us... ., was just the lightning rod around which my anger coalesced. I deserve better than to be used as a platform for her to form attachments with other guys. So she is gone.

But my self-esteem was not damaged in this process. I still like who I am. But I have never noticed any correlation between my self-belief and the perception of others. People assure me it is there - but I have never seen it. What I see is that some people like me, others do not, and occassionally someone comes along who is romantically and/or sexually interested in me. I do not thrive on people liking me nor despair that others don't. Those are their choices and I like me plenty enough. I would dearly like it to be so that this being true - my self regard - would attract others. But I simply do not experience that. Instead I must wait until I encounter another person who is interested in me to be able to experience those romantic, intimate things that rank so highly on my fulfillment meter.

Cause without that, an interested party, the levels are capped.

Does that make me a co-dependent? Possibly. But I don't know who to change it. There is simply nothing that can fulfill me the way that having a partner - and the broad range of activities and experiences that opens up to me - can.

[Nutts45]

Sounds like you can live alone or with someone...

Wanting to share you life with another does not make you co-dependent. 

[Chazz]

Really good stuff, everyone. 


DAS SAID:  "I'm... .tricky... .I like helping people - not because I need their approval in order to like myself. I like myself plenty. I like helping people because it makes me feel EVEN BETTER."

I like helping people, too.    But, I'm a "teach a [wo]man how to fish" kinda person. Helping people for the purpose of feeling superior to them, or making them dependent on me, feels ICKY.


BrienBear -- I'm good at getting my "needs" met, too. So, I don't have a pattern of one-sided, adult relationships.


VanessaG-- YES, YES, YES, I couldn't agree with you more:  "I think that fairly healthy people get stuck in relationships with BPDs, sort of by accident.  They get drawn in and infatuated and fall in love during the stage they are painted white, and then as the other characteristics start emerging, they start thinking, WTH is going on here?, and begin either distancing themselves, or trying to make sense of it, all in order to make it better."

I got drawn in before I knew what I was dealing with. The measure is what we do when we DO find out what we are dealing with. Decisions to stay should (I think) be based on the functioning level of the BPS - AND - his/her willingness to get professional help. Physical, emotional or financial abuse are immediate deal breakers for me. Also, don't get in the way of my friendships. And don't demand every waking moment of my time.


Shiro -- I have safeguards built into my relationship with my BPD partner:

- I won't even consider living with her, least not in the foreseeable future, if ever. (BPDs may change, dramatically, when you live with them.)

- My money, my stuff, my time and my friendships are kept separate from the relationship. My friends are not her "friends". When we do socialize together, she's my date, not an extensions of me. My close friends are aware of, and sensitive to, the situation with my partner. They support me completely.

- I will not be the only one picking up the tap for dinners, or outings, etc... I keep a close eye out for when I'm feeling used or exploited. Then, I speak to it with her. She doesn't always like it, but that's not a deciding factor.

- I will not be cajoled into co-parenting her child. He has two parents. I can be a fun-loving, affectionate adult in his life, but not a proxy parent.

- If I continue to hear the same complaints or tales of woe from her, I point out the repetitive nature of her narratives. I suggest she talk to her therapist about them, because my advice the first 5 (?) times doesn't seem to be cutting it for her.

- If her behavior, moods, comments feel offensive/unproductive/seeped in pointless negativity, I leave. (I catch ya later, Honey.)     

[Koro]

DAS;

I think I feel, or rather felt the same way you did. I do like a lot who I am, the things I have accomplished and all that. But sometimes, when I am down and needy, like I have been for about, maybe a year or two now, is whan I feel "fully codependent." I have never valued much of others persons opinion better than mine, but since I want an stable relationship and a person to share my life with, that ranked highly on my list too and started acting like I posted in the original post.

So... .yeah. My codependence seems to come and go depending of my needs, how lonely I feel, my future plans and the person, but I am not always like this.

[DAS]

DAS SAID:  "I'm... .tricky... .I like helping people - not because I need their approval in order to like myself. I like myself plenty. I like helping people because it makes me feel EVEN BETTER."

I like helping people, too.    But, I'm a "teach a [wo]man how to fish" kinda person. Helping people for the purpose of feeling superior to them, or making them dependent on me, feels ICKY.

Ya - totally agree with you there.